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Historical gun for sale today

  • 19-04-2010 11:12am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,932 ✭✭✭✭


    From todays Indo...
    In Mealys auctions today

    Major John Mac Bride's .44 Webley Patent Revolver Pistol, manufactured Under Licence by Rigby & Sons, Dublin. This pistol was left in for repair at Lamberts, Hatch St., Dublin, prior to Easter week 1916, by Major Mc Bride, he never collected it and it was not returned to him. Estimated selling price: € 600 - 900


    Wonder is it a DEACT,or what Good Reason you could put down to posses it ??Be a crying shame if it is reduced to a non firing lump of metal:(

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,296 ✭✭✭rowa


    lovely webley , the estimated price seems very low though.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,772 ✭✭✭meathstevie


    There's heaps of Webleys around Ireland, especially Northern Ireland, and the UK if someone wishes to buy one hence the price.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,932 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Apart from the historical perspective of it.Does the fact that it was a liscensed version made by Rigby in Dublin add any value to it?

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,296 ✭✭✭rowa


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    Apart from the historical perspective of it.Does the fact that it was a liscensed version made by Rigby in Dublin add any value to it?
    I know rigby are still going strong today , obviously not in gun unfriendly ireland , but i thought the gun might have been of interest to wealthy irish-american collectors as it would be of interest to them on several levels.
    Webleys seem to fetch very high prices in the states and those with any sort of proveable history even more so, added to that the fact that they wouldn't have to go crawling to some unaccountable public servant for a licence and i would certainly think it would be going abroad.

    http://www.johnrigbyandco.com/html/history.html

    http://www.johnrigbylondon.com/index2.html


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    On the historical guns we can't own note, I found a centenary model Browning Hi Power on gunbroker.com last night. Lovely. Ornate without being too tacky. However, I couldn't buy it on the understanding that it would be decommissioned. That would be wrong to me.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,251 ✭✭✭✭kowloon


    Does the hammer look like it's sitting back a bit there?
    Could very well be butchered already.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,296 ✭✭✭rowa


    kowloon wrote: »
    Does the hammer look like it's sitting back a bit there?
    Could very well be butchered already.

    half cock maybe ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    Provenance is everything. Condition is very helpful, but less than perfect condition can be outweighed by strong provenance. I agree with Rowa, the guide price seems low.

    P.


  • Registered Users Posts: 38,921 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    There's heaps of Webleys around Ireland, especially Northern Ireland, and the UK if someone wishes to buy one hence the price.
    That's beside the point. It's not the modle but rather the owner thats gives its value. very low imo.
    I found it a little funny that they felt it important to mention it was never returned to him, they could hardly walk into Kilmainham and hand it to him.

    Mac Bride was a key figure in the rising. He also fought in the Boer war. When facing the firing squad in Killmainham he decline a blindfold and said something like;

    "I have looked down the muzzles of too many guns in the Boer war to fear death, now please carry out your sentence"


    Obviously his son was even more so historically significant. AFAIK, the family has all since passed away.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    Mellor wrote: »


    Obviously his son was even more so historically significant. AFAIK, the family has all since passed away.

    Sean McB had two children, Tiernan, who was a film-maker and a daughter. Tiernan died in the mid 1990s. I don't know about the daughter.

    Anyone hear what the revolver went for?

    P.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 38,921 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    I knew his son died, buried together in Glasnevin. I wasn't aware that he had a daughter. If she was still alive I hope she was aware of the sale.

    I'd be interested in the final price also.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,772 ✭✭✭meathstevie


    Mellor wrote: »
    That's beside the point. It's not the modle but rather the owner thats gives its value. very low imo.
    I found it a little funny that they felt it important to mention it was never returned to him, they could hardly walk into Kilmainham and hand it to him.

    Mac Bride was a key figure in the rising. He also fought in the Boer war. When facing the firing squad in Killmainham he decline a blindfold and said something like;

    "I have looked down the muzzles of too many guns in the Boer war to fear death, now please carry out your sentence"


    Obviously his son was even more so historically significant. AFAIK, the family has all since passed away.


    It does matter to an extent, if it would have been a rather unusual weapon with the same history it would have been valued a good bit more. Obviously the man's historical importance stands on it's own whether he had a Webley or a Luger or a Colt.


  • Registered Users Posts: 38,921 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    That's not what I said. I never said that the rarity doesn't matter. I said that the value (in this case only) comes from the history. Hence, I expected it to be higher. The listed price was a steal imo. If I was at home I'd buy it.

    Obviously, if it was a one of a kind custom piece this adds to the history value, I doubt anyone disagrees.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,296 ✭✭✭rowa


    Someone said webleys are common in ireland and that is true , but the victorian and edwardian era revolvers and semi-autos are very sought after by collectors and something like the webley-fosbery revolver is a real find ,
    Most webleys around are the later ex military second world war stuff and are not very scarce.
    Just hope whoever bought it didn't have to have it deactivated like the tolkien revolver had to be before it was put on display.
    http://www.iwm.org.uk/server/show/nav.00o00200h


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    rowa wrote: »
    I know rigby are still going strong today , obviously not in gun unfriendly ireland

    Gone from Ireland since the 1890's so it's not very relevant.Wouldn't be around today if they stayed, las we lack an Empire, tigers, and all that;)

    Didn’t the first Kavanagh start as an apprentice in Rigbys?
    Interesting links on your post. Terry Weiland is the author of “Spanish Best” – a book that gives a very good insight into Spain’s best shotguns, Arrizabalagas, Grullas, Garbi’s etc.
    Neil McVeigh in Monkstown had a lovely Rigby double rifle for sale a year or so ago, beautiful piece, about 15k I seem to recall. I need the Lotto :mad:
    Will have to phone Adams to get the sale price of that Webley if it is not posted soon....Is it normal that it did not have a ring for a lanyard? I always thought that revolvers, officers, for the use of, had lanyards??:confused:
    Tnx
    P.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,296 ✭✭✭rowa


    yes it is a terrible pity that there are very few gunshops let alone gunsmiths or even better gunmakers left in dublin city, the rigby name is only that , a name , no real history behind the people making the modern guns, unike purdey or h+h etc.
    as for macbrides webley and its lack of lanyard, as far as i know officers were not supplied with revolvers but had to buy there own, maybe they were given an allowance, if ya want to see a good link look at this ;)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXoa5zNn0TU


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,932 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    AFIK it was also left up to British Army officers as to personal choice as to the sidearms they carried.As there is plenty of evidence of them carrying personally purchased Colt 1911s,Mausers 1896s,Webleys in revolver and semi.Not to mind a good supply of ammo:eek:.Seems to have been the same on the other side as well,except your choice was limited to Mauser or Luger.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,772 ✭✭✭meathstevie


    On a slightly different note; I've recently seen a 1916 Erfurt manufactured Luger in excellent condition in it's original holster with matching serial numbers all over ( not a mix and match job ), original maintenance tool and spare magazine all together. The pistol had German Imperial stamps on it. What would that be worth ? Keeping in mind that it probably has seen action in two world wars.

    Also recently seen was a Japanese WWII Nambu, extremely crude piece of junk imo. It looks like a crudely cobbled together clunker some gangster with a bit of machining experience could have made. Feels and handles like it as well.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,461 ✭✭✭foxshooter243


    On a slightly different note; I've recently seen a 1916 Erfurt manufactured Luger in excellent condition in it's original holster with matching serial numbers all over ( not a mix and match job ), original maintenance tool and spare magazine all together. The pistol had German Imperial stamps on it. What would that be worth ? Keeping in mind that it probably has seen action in two world wars.

    Also recently seen was a Japanese WWII Nambu, extremely crude piece of junk imo. It looks like a crudely cobbled together clunker some gangster with a bit of machining experience could have made. Feels and handles like it as well.

    MS, I was shooting one of these recently ;
    http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com/935Arty1915R.htm

    these babys fetch a good price, it had all its paraphenalia with it too and was incredibley accurate, I also had the pleasure of shooting a colt new service 455 eley revolver, although it had the cylinder shaved to accept 45 auto rim or acp ammo, with the use of half moon clips, some of the older stuff is really nice.


  • Registered Users Posts: 227 ✭✭Paddysnapper


    Anybody know what this item made?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    Anybody know what this item made?
    Ring the auction rooms, they usually will tell you as it's good advertising for them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,932 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    On a slightly different note; I've recently seen a 1916 Erfurt manufactured Luger in excellent condition in it's original holster with matching serial numbers all over ( not a mix and match job ), original maintenance tool and spare magazine all together. The pistol had German Imperial stamps on it. What would that be worth ? Keeping in mind that it probably has seen action in two world wars.
    A LOT! check the blue book of gun values .google it for a current addy.
    One BTW to have on your favourite list.It is a std ref tool as well .

    Also recently seen was a Japanese WWII Nambu, extremely crude piece of junk imo. It looks like a crudely cobbled together clunker some gangster with a bit of machining experience could have made. Feels and handles like it as well.
    A total POS indeed.But worth a lod of cash too.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,296 ✭✭✭rowa


    I was on the hunt for a webley bulldog revolver before mr.ahern stuck his oar in, they don't fetch huge money, this stubby revolver was made famous by arthur conan doyle as the gun he put in the hands of sherlock holmes in some of his adventures around london etc, most famously shooting tonga from boat to boat in "The sign of four".
    anyway i'll never know now as no new (or old) centrefires are going to see the light of day here again :mad:.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,932 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Apprently the Buldog was much favoured by the RIC plainclothes detectives in .455 Webly manstopper.As there are a few about in auctions with the old RIC stamped on them.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    Phoned Mealy's this morning. The Major's gun was sold for 1900 euro. Seems OK, long-term it would be a good investment for that money.
    P.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    AFIK it was also left up to British Army officers as to personal choice as to the sidearms they carried.As there is plenty of evidence of them carrying personally purchased Colt 1911s,Mausers 1896s,Webleys in revolver and semi.Not to mind a good supply of ammo:eek:.Seems to have been the same on the other side as well,except your choice was limited to Mauser or Luger.

    When I was a kid Irish Army officers had a choice of a 1911 colt (A model I think) or a webley 45 revolver. I seem to recall that all had lanyard rings (probably dated to WW1 surplus too:D) They also used a Gustav lmg.
    Lanyards derived from the trenches, going over the top and all that.FWIW.
    P


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,932 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    When I was a kid Irish Army officers had a choice of a 1911 colt (A model I think) or a webley 45 revolver. I seem to recall that all had lanyard rings (probably dated to WW1 surplus too:D) They also used a Gustav lmg.
    Lanyards derived from the trenches, going over the top and all that.FWIW.
    P

    More like Browning Hi power or in Irish army parlance the BAP.The only other handgun the Irish Army ever issued as a stopgap was belive it or not the German Luger navy model.There were so many brought back by Ex Irish servicemen who fought with the British forces from the 1st world war where the Royal Irish regts faced the German Marine units in 1916 on the Marne[?] That in the civil war and war of independance there were huge amounts confiscated by the Govt,that in the emergency they were issued to Irish officers.

    The Gustav bTW is a sMG,not a LMG,you are thinking of the Bren gun?
    The lanyards were actually from the Calvary.Lot easier to loose a pistol on a galloping horse[Despite many Hollywood Westerns to the contary!].
    The US calvary had two even when the 1911 became a std sidearm.One for the gun and another for the magazine!Lose the mag,which were in short supply,and your 1911 is a single shot pistol:eek:

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    More like Browning Hi power or in Irish army parlance the BAP.The only other handgun the Irish Army ever issued as a stopgap was belive it or not the German Luger navy model.There were so many brought back by Ex Irish servicemen who fought with the British forces from the 1st world war where the Royal Irish regts faced the German Marine units in 1916 on the Marne[?] That in the civil war and war of independance there were huge amounts confiscated by the Govt,that in the emergency they were issued to Irish officers.

    The Gustav bTW is a sMG,not a LMG,you are thinking of the Bren gun?
    The lanyards were actually from the Calvary.Lot easier to loose a pistol on a galloping horse[Despite many Hollywood Westerns to the contary!].
    The US calvary had two even when the 1911 became a std sidearm.One for the gun and another for the magazine!Lose the mag,which were in short supply,and your 1911 is a single shot pistol:eek:

    I'll bow to your knowledge Grizz, I'm not a handgun guy. I recall a Colt pistol and when I later saw a 1911 it "fitted". I also recall the revolver - always assumed it was a Webley. Typo on sub/light, brain not fully working. Gustav, Carl. folding frame stock. I also remember the bren, on a bipod and the curved mag. Not to mention the Lewis, with its belt and watercooled. And the Lee Enfield 303s.
    Feeling like auld Mr. Brennan now.............:)
    P.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,932 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    .
    Not to mention the Lewis, with its belt and watercooled. And the Lee Enfield 303s.
    Feeling like auld Mr. Brennan now.............:)
    P.

    The Lewis[AKA the Daisy cutter] is a top drum mounted LMG,and is aircooled.;)
    Think you mean the Vickers.:) Water & sailcloth belt.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,251 ✭✭✭✭kowloon


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    .P.

    The Lewis[AKA the Daisy cutter] is a top drum mounted LMG,and is aircooled.;)
    Think you mean the Vickers.:) Water & sailcloth belt.

    The barrel shroud on the Lewis does make it look like a watercooled gun though.


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