How to revive the Irish language.

Iwasfrozen · 05-05-2012 11:26am

deise go deo wrote: »

Actually the progress of language shift is usually measured in generations, a compleat language shift such as took place in Ireland almost never happens, even here it took the best part of 500 years from the first time the then Kingdom of England set out to replace Irish with English for the process to be compleated, and it took several mass depopulations along the way to do it.

Irish has been trying to make a revival from the last 120 years to absolutely no long term avail. In fact the number of speakers has actually fallen hugely in this time period. What does that say about the future prospects of irish making a revival? That they aren't very high truth be told. And the type of comfortable living we have in the modern world makes drastic policy changes all the more unlikely.

You say it took the English 500 years to replace irish but you and I both know this isn't true. Irish was largely replaced by english in the main in the mid to late nineteenth century and not by the english (because language shifts can not be implemented from the top down) but by the people themselves. They realised that English was the language of business and science but more importantly America and Britain. Two places they could travel to to escape the drugery and dream of a new life. These are the only sort of condtions a true language shift can take place under. When the population is misguided, uneducated and ignorant with either an inferior complex (to get rid of the native language) or a superior complex (to bring it back)

Now you might say we don't need a superior complex to revive irish but really you do, to a certain extent. In order for people to speak it they need to see some perceived beinifte in switching languages. Since no real benifite exists. This superiority complex is easy to achieve though all it takes is "the english took our language and we should take it back" or "It's our native language we should all speak it" or even that old chestnut that never fails to bring the superiority complex: "learing a new language brings many benifites to chuldren and adults. It even holds back alzheimer's."

deise go deo wrote: »

Again your assuming that the number of Gaelscoil leavers will remain static at current levels, it wont, but lets not forget that the Gaelscoil movement 15-20 years ago was much smaller than it was now, the generation that came through the Gaelscoils even 10 years ago is much smaller than the one comming through now, by the time the third generation of Gaelscoil leavers come through the movement will be bigger again..

That's the thing I'm not assuming, I've deduced. I believe the gaelscoil movement has a critical limit beyond which it will not grow because of

Lack of government interest.
Public apathy. And even down right opposition in some quarters.
Union opposition. "My irish isn't good enough to teach in irish and I don't want to retrain." Though not in as many words. :P

deise go deo wrote: »

As for using the language, its called building a language community, its happening in many parts of the country at present.
Lets take Village X, in this village there are a hand full of Irish speakers, they speak Irish to each other and nothing much changes from year to year, then a Gaelscoil is founded in Village X, still nothing much changes, some years later the kids who started out in the local gaelscoil start leaving, many of them stay in the village, get jobs and in time start a family, now the Gaelscoil is still there and naturally enough they want to send their kids to it just like they were, except this time at least one parent also has Irish, so it gets used in the home as the child is growing up, to get the child ready for the Gaelscoil a Nionra is needed, so one is started, when they are finished in the Gaelscoil, obviously a new Gaelcholaiste has to be set up for them to go on and get their second Level education through Irish, so they set one of them up too. So here we have a new generation of young people who have gone to Irish Play school, Irish Primary school and Irish secondary school, with Irish in the home too, young people who grew up with Irish, made friends through Irish.
As they grew up youth groups through Irish got set up to provide activities for young Irish speakers, sports teams got set up that are run through Irish. Now we have a generation in Village X who have not just been educated through Irish, but who grew up through Irish, who socialise through Irish.
This generation may well still be a small minority in Village X, but they are their own Language community.

This is already happening around the country, its only starting off, there are only a handfull of areas that have Gaelscoils established long enough for a second generation to be comming through the school, but where there is, in places like Ballymun and Clondalkin, Loughrae in Galway there is already a vibrant Irish Language community that grows with each new year of kids that goes through the local school.

Thats how Irish is being and will be revived.

The gaeltacht has been dying out since the beginning of the state this represents a long term population decline and language shift. What you are forgetting is that ambitious young people tend to not stay in their rural homelands. A huge amount try to make their way in the big smoke. This is evident if you look at the age demographics of Dublin. This is a huge problem for the gealgeoir movement becuase it scatters a relatively small number of irish speakers amongst a muge larger number of purely english speakers. This will only result in one thing. An "artificialisation" of the language occurs through the process that i described in my last post.

Villages are not the way to go to revive irish. If you want to have any hope at all you must conquer the alpha city in this country. Culture moves from urban to rural not the other way around. But then that would mean cutting off all that lucrative money the gaeltachts get for doing nothing. Which will lead to economic decline and futher population shift from the west. Scattering the irish speakers more. It's a vicious circle.

paddyandy · 05-05-2012 12:17pm

If the Irish people don't want the Language then it will never happen that is the irreducible sum of it all .All the years it is taught at school and later they can't put a sentence together says it all .

Conchir · 05-05-2012 12:34pm

I'd love to be fluent in Irish. I put a lot of effort into it in school, however most of that time is spent learning off useless answers for useless stories and poems. Seriously, what is the point in learning stories when you can't even understand them? It's taught as if it's peoples first language (eg English comparative texts at LC). You should be fluent before you go comparing poems and analysing their themes.

paddyandy · 05-05-2012 1:10pm

There are vested interests in media anxious to keep the business of the language revival going on and on . Even when hopeless they have bills to pay .

languagenerd · 05-05-2012 1:43pm

I think Irish is a great language and I'd love to see it gain more popularity, but jaysus, OP, are you trying to depopulate the country? :P

I think it should be taught the same way as French, Spanish and German are taught. I did French and Spanish at school (and am currently three-quarters of my way through a degree in them) and I learnt far more of them in 6 years than I did in 13/14 years of Irish. That wasn't the teachers' fault (in most cases anyway!), it was because of the syllabus, curriculum, and points system which just didn't allow for Irish to be taught in an effective way. (This is 1995-2009, I'm aware things are changing now). I had a great Irish teacher in 5th and 6th year, and I remember her telling us that she wished she could use the class time differently and try and give us a love of the language, but that she just couldn't when we had this syllabus to cover. She did make the poems and stories interesting though. ("So then Deirdre said to Oisín(?) 'sure come follow me around' and he said 'ok' and then they jumped over three forests, as you do, and..." - I may be mutilating the actual story, but you get my drift :P)

What would people think of a sort of program by which people who were willing to put their cúpla focail into practice could wear a small pin or badge of sorts? That way, if you were in shop, for example, and saw that the person on the counter had one, you could speak to them in Irish instead of English. Or if you met someone in college/work and they had one too... I know there's the fáinne but that requires fluency or an exam or something, no? (if I'm wrong, sorry!). Might make the language a bit more fun.

Also if more pop singers or rock groups sung in Irish, I reckon it's popularity would soar. I've always noticed that when a foreign artist says a few words of Irish onstage (nearly always "Dia dhuit!" or "Conas atá tú?!"), the crowd cheer like crazy... even though those same people probably hate(d) it in school :P

languagenerd · 05-05-2012 1:55pm

someuser905 wrote: »

we all speak english, get over it, its a much better language

Hey, just wondering, why do you (and others) think English is a much better language?

(I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm genuinely interested in your reason for thinking that - as my username shows that I'm a bit of nerd when it comes to this sort of thing :P)

Personally, I think English is more useful nowadays because it's the language of America and Britain (still influential countries, especially when it comes to cinema and pop music) and because it's the main language of the Internet - but I don't think it's a "better language" in the sense of speaking it and writing in it. It's a really complicated language when you think about, so many irregular words and things that are written the same but pronounced differently etc. Just my take though!

deise go deo · 05-05-2012 3:23pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Irish has been trying to make a revival from the last 120 years to absolutely no long term avail. In fact the number of speakers has actually fallen hugely in this time period. What does that say about the future prospects of irish making a revival? That they aren't very high truth be told. And the type of comfortable living we have in the modern world makes drastic policy changes all the more unlikely.

Just because the revival movement started 120 years ago does not mean that the language stopped declining then, language shift is a process affected by the economic and social conditions of the populas. Just because some relativly well off people in Dublin and some international schollars took an interest in the language did not change the fact that the vast majority of its speakers were undereducated, unskilled poor and living for the most part in economacially depressed areas. It did not change the social stigma associated with the language that made native speakers ashamed to speak it outside their own area or social group because they saw it as a badge of poverty, these negative associations built up over generations took several more generartions to dissapate. The decline of the Language continued untill well into the 20th centuary, only comming to a halt around the 60s-70s. That does not mean that the language is not, or can not undergo a revival at any time in the future.

You say it took the English 500 years to replace irish but you and I both know this isn't true. Irish was largely replaced by english in the main in the mid to late nineteenth century and not by the english (because language shifts can not be implemented from the top down) but by the people themselves. They realised that English was the language of business and science but more importantly America and Britain. Two places they could travel to to escape the drugery and dream of a new life. These are the only sort of condtions a true language shift can take place under. When the population is misguided, uneducated and ignorant with either an inferior complex (to get rid of the native language) or a superior complex (to bring it back)

They realised English was the language of Business and Science? I wounder how that happened, oh right, Catholic's who for the most part were Irish speakers were not allowed own property or run a business, science, the Irish speaking ruleing class was destroyed and the system of learning they supported through patronage was destroyed with them. Tell me, was it not the then English Monarchy that did that?

"learing a new language brings many benifites to chuldren and adults. It even holds back alzheimer's."

Well thats what the people who have researched second language learning have found, if you don't believe them, I hope you have something to base that opinion on.

That's the thing I'm not assuming, I've deduced. I believe the gaelscoil movement has a critical limit beyond which it will not grow because of
Lack of government interest.

Public apathy. And even down right opposition in some quarters.

Union opposition. "My irish isn't good enough to teach in irish and I don't want to retrain." Though not in as many words. :P

You don't believe the gaelscoil movement will continue to grow? Even though the govenrment has already announced there will be several new Gaelscoils and Gaelcholaistí opening over the next 5 years.

As for public apathy, if the public is so apathetic, how has the Gaelscoil movement grown so fast over the last 40 years? Why has it continued to grow even in the face of Government oppisition, why are Gaelscoils oversubscribed all around the country? Why are there ongoing campaigns for new Gaelscoileanna in around 15 places in the country.

As for Unions, can you find even one single sourse to show that there is or ever has been union opposition to Gaelscoileanna?

Im sorry, but your 'deduction' seems to be baseless. Anything you have claimed above could have been said 20 years ago, Gaelscoil movement has grown since then, and will continue to grow, that you cant see this is bizzare.

The gaeltacht has been dying out since the beginning of the state this represents a long term population decline and language shift. What you are forgetting is that ambitious young people tend to not stay in their rural homelands. A huge amount try to make their way in the big smoke. This is evident if you look at the age demographics of Dublin. This is a huge problem for the gealgeoir movement becuase it scatters a relatively small number of irish speakers amongst a muge larger number of purely english speakers. This will only result in one thing. An "artificialisation" of the language occurs through the process that i described in my last post.

Actually what occures, and is occuring here, just as it has in Wales or anywhere else there is a minority language is that new urban language communities are formed. Nothing artificial about people continuing to speak their native language when they move away from home and establishing networks to facilliate that in their new home.

Villages are not the way to go to revive irish. If you want to have any hope at all you must conquer the alpha city in this country. Culture moves from urban to rural not the other way around. But then that would mean cutting off all that lucrative money the gaeltachts get for doing nothing. Which will lead to economic decline and futher population shift from the west. Scattering the irish speakers more. It's a vicious circle.

Village was a metaphore, as already mentioned the same process is already taking place in Dublin, as it has in Belfast. A minority language does not need to 'conquer the alpha city' to survive and grow. Thats just more baseless nonsence.

facemelter · 05-05-2012 3:25pm

bb1234567 wrote: »

I think everyone should be forced to speak irish on the street in public and if caught speaking english there given a small fine of 10 euro or so. But only in public, and Im sure people will get used speaking irish so much from being out in public that theyll eventually begin to speak irish at home too. And tourists or non natives can be given some kind of card to wear or something so theyre not fined, and people are allowed speak to said people in english.

Yeah lets mark all the people who aren't natives with some kind of card !! actually lets make its a Yellow star that a great idea ! Yeah lets make these people easily identifiable ! we should also make these people live all in one place that way people will still speak Irish at home ! how about we just put them in one big camp! And we could get irish speakers to make sure they don't get out and start speaking irish !! :pac::pac:

conor.hogan.2 · 05-05-2012 6:56pm

LordSutch wrote: »

And neither has there been over the last eighty years (well not vocally), and yet the language is stuck in limbo, many people say they want it, yet they can't be bothered to speak it, but its still a compulsory subject in school, right through to leaving cert.

Question: What ground breaking change can possibly ignite the Irish language? or are we deemed to carry on with this farcical situation wherby we want the language, and we want it to remain as a compulsory subject in school, yet we don't really want to speak it (en masse) :cool:

We are to do what the majority of the country wants, whether you believe it is farcical or not is your opinion.

We are never (ever, ever) going to speak Irish en masse. That is not a goal (of anyone?)

When people hear Irish and revival why do they misinterpret it more that some people misinterpret "theory"? (in a scientific context)

desertcircus · 05-05-2012 7:34pm

Good God, there's some ridiculous nonsense being spouted on this thread.

Irish is of heavily limited use; German, French, Spanish, Mandarin and Cantonese would all be better bets in terms of usefulness. Its cultural relevance is incredibly limited - Ulysses, Godot, Father Ted, The Joshua Tree, the work of almost every significant artist of the past hundred years was written in English. It's possible to get an encyclopaedic understanding of Irish culture without knowing any more Irish than what's required to recognise when someone's reciting "an bhfuil cead agam dul go dti an leithreas?". Its connection to Irishness itself is far weaker than Irish history, which is an optional subject at Leaving Cert level. We'd have been better off if the state had decided all those years ago to make it compulsory to learn another European language. Irrespective of the merits of the teaching of Irish, I simply don't see the case for it in the first place.

LordSutch · 05-05-2012 7:49pm

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

We are never (ever, ever) going to speak Irish en masse. That is not a goal (of anyone?)

But surely if Irish is compulsory in school then the aim is to get everybody to speak Irish? Yes? Possibly in the same way as the Danes speak Danish, or the Norwegians speak Norwegian? And if its not the aim to get everybody speaking Irish en masse, then what is the aim of the Irish language lobby? and I ask this genuinely, and with the backdrop of mandatory Irish in school.

shanered · 05-05-2012 7:51pm

Invade Britain and force the language on them! Tit for tat I say!

Dammo · 05-05-2012 8:14pm

Conchir wrote: »

what is the point in learning stories when you can't even understand them? It's taught as if it's peoples first language (eg English comparative texts at LC). You should be fluent before you go comparing poems and analysing their themes.

Very sensible post. A more realistic approach to the teaching of the language badly needed. The current approach has failed im' thuairim.

conor.hogan.2 · 05-05-2012 8:26pm

LordSutch wrote: »

But surely if Irish is compulsory in school then the aim is to get everybody to speak Irish? Yes? Possibly in the same way as the Danes speak Danish, or the Norwegians speak Norwegian? And if its not the aim to get everybody speaking Irish en masse, then what is the aim of the Irish language lobby? and I ask this genuinely, and with the backdrop of mandatory Irish in school.

No it is to get everybody able to know some Irish.

But the majority of Irish people actively speaking Irish is a pipe-dream and I do not know anyone who actually has that as any sort of goal.

What Irish language lobby? We do not meet on wednesdays in cú na irishnagon.

GaryIrv93 · 05-05-2012 8:45pm

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

No it is to get everybody able to know some Irish.

But sure many students leave school without a word of Irish, even after 14 years of being taught it. With the way its currently taught, there'll never be a significant number of competent speakers of it. Even those who can speak Irish well or even fluently in rare cases simply don't because it's simply of no benefit to them. It's method of teaching has to change if the government wants everybody to know some Irish. It's like asking Brits to speak Irish. Irish may be our native language, but English is our primary language for business, commerce, everyday communication etc. I never hear anybody speak Irish out on the street. Even if we all could speak Irish, how does it actually benefit the country internationally?

conor.hogan.2 · 05-05-2012 9:07pm

GaryIrv93 wrote: »

But sure many students leave school without a word of Irish, even after 14 years of being taught it. With the way its currently taught, there'll never be a significant number of competent speakers of it. Even those who can speak Irish well or even fluently in rare cases simply don't because it's simply of no benefit to them. It's method of teaching has to change if the government wants everybody to know some Irish. It's like asking Brits to speak Irish. Irish may be our native language, but English is our primary language for business, commerce, everyday communication etc. I never hear anybody speak Irish out on the street. Even if we all could speak Irish, how does it actually benefit the country internationally?

Stop talking nonsensical hyperbole. They do not leave with no Irish many leave without being fluent or even able to have anything above a basic broken conversation but they do know a lot of irish when prodded to remember.

It is not a either/or choice. Of course we will continue to use English for the vast vast vast majority of out time and the majority of people will only speak English.

GaryIrv93 · 05-05-2012 10:31pm

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

Stop talking nonsensical hyperbole. They do not leave with no Irish many leave without being fluent or even able to have anything above a basic broken conversation but they do know a lot of irish when prodded to remember.

It is not a either/or choice. Of course we will continue to use English for the vast vast vast majority of out time and the majority of people will only speak English.

Even those who leave knowing ''a lot'' of Irish words aren't necessarily fluent nor good at speaking it, so it's hugely wasteful after all those of years of being in contact with it. Even in a broken / faulty education system, you'd think that most students would at least be competent enough with the language after 14 years. If not, then there's absolutley no point in keeping it compulsory aside from those who show interest and commitment to the language. Other students should be let learn a subject which is of more relevance and interest to them, but they can't. Which is why I referred to Ireland's education system as broken and faulty.

golden lane · 05-05-2012 10:34pm

in the fifties when i was being educated.....there were a lot of canings for our lack of interest in the irish language......so it became a big joke......and was hated..

conor.hogan.2 · 05-05-2012 10:42pm

GaryIrv93 wrote: »

Even those who leave knowing ''a lot'' of Irish words aren't necessarily fluent nor good at speaking it, so it's hugely wasteful after all those of years of being in contact with it. Even in a broken / faulty education system, you'd think that most students would at least be competent enough with the language after 14 years. If not, then there's absolutley no point in keeping it compulsory aside from those who show interest and commitment to the language. Other students should be let learn a subject which is of more relevance and interest to them, but they can't. Which is why I referred to Ireland's education system as broken and faulty.

This has changed. Oral and Aural is now worth 50% so give it a while and speaking will improve.

I left school without being able to hold any decent conversation in Irish and my French was much worse and that class was basically all about speaking and basic things like essays using basic phrases and stuff. But if I was doing the LC now I would be concentrating on speaking/hearing as it is worth 50% of the grade and being good in this gives you an edge in essays etc in the other 50%

You have 6 (or more) other subjects to choose in the LC...

05-05-2012 10:46pm

in the fifties when i was being educated.....there were a lot of canings for our lack of interest in the irish language......so it became a big joke......and was hated..

It's easy to see why it was a big joke, the government didn't use it, the civil service didn't use it, the banks didn't use it & the teachers didn't use it (apart from while teaching it).

Had the decision been made to compel people in authority to use it when dealing with the general public back in the 1920's, we wouldn't be having this discussion, we would be like one of the many other European countries that has a unique national language and a relatively small population.

Like Iceland for example, where almost everyone can speak at least one other language.

Wibbs · 05-05-2012 11:18pm

Alma Gentle Bedbug wrote: »

It's easy to see why it was a big joke, the government didn't use it, the civil service didn't use it, the banks didn't use it & the teachers didn't use it (apart from while teaching it).

Eh... may I respectfully suggest you read more on the history of our country on this point. In the 1950's both the government and civil service used the language significantly more than today. The latter conducted the majority of it's business through the language, by internal law. For a goodly amount of time the CS was Irish speaking. That only changed later on.

BOHtox · 05-05-2012 11:53pm

I reckon we rename "Irish" to "Mandarin" we then change all Irish words to Mandarin and start teaching Irish as Mandarin. Problem solved!

paddyandy · 06-05-2012 12:28am

Teach Irish with a mid-Atlantic accent and it might have some sort of a chance .????
Many languages are having problems attuning to popular cultures .

conor.hogan.2 · 06-05-2012 1:00am

Wibbs wrote: »

Eh... may I respectfully suggest you read more on the history of our country on this point.

May I respectfully suggest you read more on the history of this country in the 1920's?
Irish was only used in lip service even then by the government.

Anyway I think Irish is exactly where it is today for a variety of reasons and blaming the government is not really called for * and is lucky to still be alive at all tbh. It is growing in usage as a minority second language in a wide range of areas over the country and by the time the Gaeltacht all but disappears it will be strong enough to survive without the Gaeltacht.

* blaming FF for a lot of other things throughout our history is called for but is totally separate. Of course if they made an Israeli style effort Irish would be more widely used but it was not really in similar circumstances in so many ways to Israel that them doing that was never likely.

GaryIrv93 · 06-05-2012 2:24am

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

This has changed. Oral and Aural is now worth 50% so give it a while and speaking will improve.

I left school without being able to hold any decent conversation in Irish and my French was much worse and that class was basically all about speaking and basic things like essays using basic phrases and stuff. But if I was doing the LC now I would be concentrating on speaking/hearing as it is worth 50% of the grade and being good in this gives you an edge in essays etc in the other 50%

You have 6 (or more) other subjects to choose in the LC...

I doubt the new scheme will improve it's fluency or skill - it only puts more emphasis on the oral exam. After coming out of it, the student will simply say ''don't have to speak Irish again. yay!'' and from then on forget more and more of pronounciations, meanings of words etc as time goes by. The whole thing just puts more emphasis on the exam, not the student's future ability to speak it. Also, the exact same things are taught for the oral, such as greeting, family, your area and basic such and such. It's just worth a few more %.

You have 6 or more other subjects to choose, but Irish is a compulsory one, which it shouldn't be. Students unfortunately have to sacrifice valuable time from other subjects for Irish, which will be of no relevance to them in the future. If I had the option, I'd do something more practical like engineering for my LC instead, because that's among my choices for college courses, not Arts which needs Irish language skills... Because Irish is compulsory for the LC, even though it's not relevant to me, I have to sacrifice time from studying Maths and the other important ones - one's that I'll actaully need to get into my desired courses, for one which I have no need for, which therefore jeapordises my other results. It's very frustrating.

conor.hogan.2 · 06-05-2012 3:01am

GaryIrv93 wrote: »

It's very frustrating.

It is for a small minority apparently.

I think you are wrong, obviously the new scheme will improve spoken Irish in students. Not that that will translate to them using it after school, that is different altogether.

Most students do 7 subjects. You only need 6 honors. Drop down to pass Irish and if you can not do 6 honors and pass OL Irish then forget Engineering you are not cut out for it.

(I did arts btw, now working in Engineering*. I think a more general education is far superior to more specialized education like the UK has)

* Software Engineering (I don't call it that but that but still).

GaryIrv93 · 06-05-2012 3:38am

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

I think you are wrong, obviously the new scheme will improve spoken Irish in students. Not that that will translate to them using it after school, that is different altogether.

Most students do 7 subjects. You only need 6 honors. Drop down to pass Irish and if you can not do 6 honors and pass OL Irish then forget Engineering

It might compel students to memeorize for the oral exam more, but that's about it. They'll memeorize phrases from their Irish textbook and spit them back out in the oral. Once they walk out of the exam they'll forget most of their Irish, just like a lot of peope would forget information walking out of any exam. Memorizing it doesn't mean that you actually know the stuff. For example I could memorize a maths formula and do the sum correctly in the exam, yet doesn't mean I actually understand it. So there's obviously no point then bring it up to 40% if it's just for the exam and not to improve the student's future competence in Irish.

conor.hogan.2 · 06-05-2012 4:48am

GaryIrv93 wrote: »

It might compel students to memeorize for the oral exam more, but that's about it. They'll memeorize phrases from their Irish textbook and spit them back out in the oral. Once they walk out of the exam they'll forget most of their Irish, just like a lot of peope would forget information walking out of any exam. Memorizing it doesn't mean that you actually know the stuff. For example I could memorize a maths formula and do the sum correctly in the exam, yet doesn't mean I actually understand it. So there's obviously no point then bring it up to 40% if it's just for the exam and not to improve the student's future competence in Irish.

Your argument is against all school subjects then. I think language is different than learning off poetry and maths. In fact in Orals they change subject if they tell you are spewing out prepared learned stuff.

ricero · 06-05-2012 4:56am

let it die

kincsem · 06-05-2012 4:59am

If we each had a TG4 weather girl that would be an incentive to learn Irish.

How to revive the Irish language.

Comments