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When atheists go too far

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    steve06 wrote: »
    Well that's cool. I'll just live my life how I want to then and when I die, if god exists then I'll accept him and be forgiven. Until then, I couldn't care less about religion and don't want to hear about it and I'll 'sin' as much as I want.

    According to Christians that's too late. You live this life and then you're judged. Acceptance would also have to be in earnest rather than saying "I want in now".

    If you genuinely don't want to hear about it I'd suggest that you don't look at or post in threads that have to do with atheism and faith. The other option is to place me on ignore which I'm totally OK with.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    steve06 wrote: »
    Well that's cool. I'll just live my life how I want to then and when I die, if god exists then I'll accept him and be forgiven. Until then, I couldn't care less about religion and don't want to hear about it and I'll 'sin' as much as I want.


    It is when you're drilling into the minds of children who know no better.

    :rolleyes::rolleyes:
    Are you a child who doesn't know any better? does phil go around lecturing children? I doubt it


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    philologos wrote: »
    According to Christians that's too late. You live this life and then you're judged. Acceptance would also have to be in earnest rather than saying "I want in now".

    So you have to live in fear just in case?
    bluewolf wrote: »
    does phil go around lecturing children? I doubt it
    I don't.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,331 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    Near 1000 replies in less than a week. Well done :p

    However...
    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Dawkins said he doesnt mind ridiculing other people's beleifs. Im an agnostic but I really dont see the point in constantly maintianing that anyone witha different view of the world to mine is stupid or wrong.

    ... it is YOU not Dawkins who equated ridiculing a belief with calling the person stupid. It is important to note that there is a massive difference between the two and one which Dawkins is very much aware of.

    Even the most intelligent people can have beliefs that are silly, wrong or even dangerous. Look at Newton, one of the most lauded scientists in our history. No one doubts his intelligence and his contributions to our society. The man had some seriously ridiculous ideas around health and alchemy however.

    One can attack and ridicule bad ideas in isolation from those that hold them. Not only CAN but SHOULD. Ideas, especially entirely unsubstantiated and unfounded ones, can be dangerous things and we owe it to each other and ourselves to confront bad ones wherever we find them.

    This is NOT the same as attacking or disrespecting the holder of the idea. In fact I see it as a gesture of respect that we care enough about our fellow man to even spend our precious time attempting to denude them of their more ridiculous and unfounded notions.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    philologos wrote: »
    Everyone including me actually! It's not very difficult to show that everyone has done what is wrong on numerous occasions. It's also not very difficult to show that mankind as a whole is fallen. All that takes is a quick read through today's newspaper or the newspaper on any other day. As I've said already hell shouldn't be an option for anyone in comparison to restoring the broken relationship that we have with God.

    You're above argument assumes a very silly and primitive notion of contra causal free will(sorry for bringing it up folks). It also flies in the face of a lot evidence to the contrary about human behaviour. We are animals lets not forget that important fact.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭Cú Giobach


    philologos wrote: »
    We've broken God's standard therefore He has the full right to punish us as we live in His creation. Just as much as the judge has the right to sentence you for crime.

    I'm seriously doubting that not keeping the Sabbath is the only commandment you've broken (The Ten Commandments aren't the only standards which God has set us - Try looking at the Sermon of the Mount in Matthew 5 or Romans 1). So you've never lied? Stolen? Lusted after another? Coveted someone else's wife? Coveted your neighbours possessions? Hated someone in your heart? Were angry without good cause? Dishonoured your mother and father? God's standards are extensive and reach into every area of our lives. Even on the basis of these alone I can doubt what you're saying is true.

    If these (and more) are the standards that God has set me, I've broken a lot of them. And if these are the standards that God is going to judge me by breaking them I deserve to be punished. That was one of the first recognitions I made in becoming a Christian and thats one of the key points where it began to make sense to me.
    If you weren't a Christian would you have no problem doing these things?
    In other words is it only your god preventing you from stealing, sleeping with a friends wife etc....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    bluewolf wrote: »
    :rolleyes::rolleyes:
    Are you a child who doesn't know any better? does phil go around lecturing children? I doubt it

    Well I don't have children. So no. Honestly though people will make up anything about you for the sake of skewing an argument if they can :)

    This subdiscussion arose out of free will. It led into a judgement and the here-after and I've simply been addressing questions / counter-points in respect to what I believe.
    If you weren't a Christian would you have no problem doing these things?
    In other words is it only your god preventing you from stealing, sleeping with a friends wife etc....

    No, I think a lot of atheists are opposed to this as a result of the conscience that they were given by God. I believe atheists can live a mostly ethical existence but we've still violated God's standards.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,225 ✭✭✭Chardee MacDennis


    Sums it up IMO

    atheist_cartoon.jpg


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    philologos wrote: »
    No, I think a lot of atheists are opposed to this as a result of the conscience that they were given by natural selection. I believe atheists can live a mostly ethical existence

    FYP so I can agree with you.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    This is NOT the same as attacking or disrespecting the holder of the idea. In fact I see it as a gesture of respect that we care enough about our fellow man to even spend our precious time attempting to denude them of their more ridiculous and unfounded notions.

    Certainly we should show respect for people even if they have ridiculous views, but why would we show respect for people who hold depraved views, like the view that it is just that people who don't believe in God should suffer eternal pain and suffering?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭Cú Giobach


    philologos wrote: »
    No, I think a lot of atheists are opposed to this as a result of the conscience that they were given by God. I believe atheists can live a mostly ethical existence but we've still violated God's standards.
    You keep mentioning god's standards, yet what you are talking about are basic standards needed for the proper functioning of our social species, just because someone gathered these basic rules together and said a certain deity forbids them doesn't make them his rules.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    dvpower wrote: »
    Certainly we should show respect for people even if they have ridiculous views, but why would we show respect for people who hold depraved views, like the view that it is just that people who don't believe in God should suffer eternal pain and suffering?
    Because it's a personal opinion he holds and he's not forcing it on anyone.

    From what I can see Philologos has not attacked anyone here on a personal level, you may disagree with his opinions so attack his arguments; not his person.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,144 ✭✭✭Scanlas The 2nd


    I think one of the main reasons religion is around is to keep order in society and to ensure a man can have a woman all to himself without her having sex with other men. That's why women are often told to cover up there attractive features in religions and to be ashamed of sex. Why do you a husband could rape his wife all he wanted. The rules were designed to protect the husband from being cheated on. So another man raping her was a big deal. It wasn't a problem at all for a man to rape his wife. It's one big trick by making up false rewards and punishments in some abstract afterlife.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    philologos, do you feel the that people who follow other religions with different rules will be judged by your god and not theirs?


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,789 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    philologos wrote: »
    We've broken God's standard therefore He has the full right to punish us as we live in His creation. Just as much as the judge has the right to sentence you for crime.
    The judge didn't create the circumstances in which you would break the law regardless because of the conditions he set.

    I've also yet to hear one sentence from God, everything in the bibles has been corrupted by man and just doesn't hold any weight with me. It's too clear they where having a guess at how the world came about.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Seachmall wrote: »
    Because it's a personal opinion he holds and he's not forcing it on anyone.

    From what I can see Philologos has not attacked anyone here on a personal level, you may disagree with his opinions so attack his arguments; not his person.

    If Philologos says that he thinks it is just that my deceased atheist friend will go to hell for an eternity of punishment, then I think its fair to judge Philologos for holding this depraved view. Its fair to say that Philologos himself is depraved.

    If I was to say that I thought, say, that all gays should be murdered, I would expect some personal judgement against me for holding this view even if I don't have the power to murder all gays.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,938 ✭✭✭mackg


    This argument will never end, the believers will believe no matter what argument or evidence is presented and the non-believers will not believe without evidence which will never come (religeons glorification of blind faith)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    You keep mentioning god's standards, yet what you are talking about are basic standards needed for the proper functioning of our social species, just because someone gathered these basic rules together and said a certain deity forbids them doesn't make them his rules.

    Society doesn't function properly as far as I'd see it. A proper functioning society as far as I would see it would be one in which people have healthy relationships with themselves, others and with their Creator. From what I can see this isn't the society that we live in.

    This universe is His, therefore as far as I would see it He knows how best to live in it and He gives us these standards because He loves and cares for us.
    ScumLord wrote: »
    I've also yet to hear one sentence from God, everything in the bibles has been corrupted by man and just doesn't hold any weight with me. It's too clear they where having a guess at how the world came about.

    How about asking Him to speak into your life?
    dvpower wrote: »
    Certainly we should show respect for people even if they have ridiculous views, but why would we show respect for people who hold depraved views, like the view that it is just that people who don't believe in God should suffer eternal pain and suffering?

    If only drkpower (the other d-power) were so gracious?


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    dvpower wrote: »
    If Philologos says that he thinks it is just that my deceased atheist friend will go to hell for an eternity of punishment, then I think its fair to judge Philologos for holding this depraved view. Its fair to say that Philologos himself is depraved.

    If I was to say that I thought, say, that all gays should be murdered, I would expect some personal judgement against me for holding this view even if I don't have the power to murder all gays.

    But Philologos is not saying your friend should go to hell. He doesn't judge your friend because he, as a Christian, believes only God can judge others. He's stating what he believes will happen, he's not passing judgement as far as I can tell.

    I believe more African children will die today, I don't believe they should die today.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    philologos wrote: »
    Society doesn't function properly as far as I'd see it. A proper functioning society as far as I would see it would be one in which people have healthy relationships with themselves, others and with their Creator.
    There is no proof of any 'creator'.
    philologos wrote: »
    This universe is His, therefore as far as I would see it He knows how best to live in it and He gives us these standards because He loves and cares for us.
    His standards were made up by some crazy guy centuries ago and passed on to people as 'the word of god'. People have become educated since then.
    philologos wrote: »
    How about asking Him to speak into your life?
    Has he every actually spoken to you, or are you so obsessed that you think every little thing is a subliminal message from him?
    Seachmall wrote: »
    I believe more African children will die today, I don't believe they should die today.
    But that's fact, not an opinion. More African children will in fact die today, it's documented and it's what's actually happening.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Seachmall wrote: »
    But Philologos is not saying your friend should go to hell. He doesn't judge your friend because he, as a Christian, believes only God can judge others. He's stating what he believes will happen, he's not passing judgement as far as I can tell.

    He is. He says he 'stands with God'.

    Not only that, he says that we all are deserving of hell (that is, in his view, actual and eternal punishment), that is you, me, even himself.

    If I was to say that he was deserving of an actual good kicking down a side street for holding the views that he does (of course, he isn't), I would be rightly be banned from this thread. He has said that we all deserve much, much worse.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,789 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    philologos wrote: »
    Society doesn't function properly as far as I'd see it. A proper functioning society as far as I would see it would be one in which people have healthy relationships with themselves, others and with their Creator. From what I can see this isn't the society that we live in.
    Society does work, there's water in my tap, some of my breakfast probably came from over 1000 miles away, people have rights now, women have rights, the sick are healed, the poor get charity.

    Your blinded by the media to the fact the world is a beautiful place and that people in the majority are perfectly good and decent. there's nearly 7 billion people living on planet earth, most of those people regardless of race, religion or financial status probably spend most of their day laughing with their friends.

    It's not unusual people fight, just look at the rest of the animal kingdom or gods kingdom lets call it. It's survival of the fittest, it's cruel and uncaring but beautiful as a whole. Violence is par for the course with life, what makes us unusual is that we get along so well for the most part. We're easily the nicest animal earth has ever seen.


    How about asking Him to speak into your life?
    Because that doesn't work. Because your God is a man made construct, you stopped looking for god and just made do with what you where told. I can't speak to your god.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    steve06 wrote: »
    But that's fact, not an opinion. More African children will in fact die today, it's documented and it's what's actually happening.
    And Philologos believes it's a fact that non-believers and sinners will go to hell if they don't ask for forgiveness. He's not sending them to hell it's just what he believes will happen.
    dvpower wrote:
    He is. He says he 'stands with God'.
    I could stand with a judges decision but I wouldn't assume myself to be capable of passing judgement.
    Not only that, he says that we all are deserving of hell (that is, in his view, actual and eternal punishment), that is you, me, even himself.
    If we don't repent. He's not saying we will go to hell because of who we are but we will go to hell because of what we do or fail to do. That's the difference between imprisoning someone because of their race or imprisoning someone because they're a rapist.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭Cú Giobach


    philologos wrote: »
    Society doesn't function properly as far as I'd see it. A proper functioning society as far as I would see it would be one in which people have healthy relationships with themselves, others and with their Creator. From what I can see this isn't the society that we live in.
    The fact that people break rules says nothing about where these rules come from.
    You believe our conscience comes from god, yet it can be shown how altruism is an evolved trait (Dawkins's The Selfish Gene goes into this in great detail) that is needed for a social species to survive. There is no need to invoke a deity to understand us having a conscience.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,331 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    dvpower wrote: »
    Certainly we should show respect for people even if they have ridiculous views, but why would we show respect for people who hold depraved views, like the view that it is just that people who don't believe in God should suffer eternal pain and suffering?

    I respect them just for different reasons to the ones you adumbrate. I respect them enough as fellow man to wish to assist in divesting them of the more dangerous and erroneous ideas.

    But I also respect the rest of my fellow man, and it is important for their sake also to confront bad and dangerous ideas when and where we can.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Seachmall wrote: »
    And Philologos believes it's a fact that non-believers and sinners will go to hell if they don't ask for forgiveness. He's not sending them to hell it's just what he believes will happen.
    Of course he isn't sending people to hell - I don't even think there is a hell.

    He agrees that it is just that my dead atheist friend should go to hell. He isn't just reporting the news. He agrees it should happen.
    His view that it is just that my deceased friend should suffer eternal torment, is depraved. The fact that it is nonsence and my friend isn't going to hell at all takes nothing from the misallignment of his own moral compass. That is entirely his own view and he personally should be held to account for his own views.
    Seachmall wrote: »
    If we don't repent.
    No. My dead atheist friend has no opportunity to repent.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    dvpower wrote: »
    His view that it is just that my deceased friend should suffer eternal torment, is depraved. The fact that it is nonsence and my friend isn't going to hell at all takes nothing from the misallignment of his own moral compass.
    He believes God will send your friend to hell. He believes God is all good. He believes God's ultimate decisions are moral. He is not judging your friend.

    The crux of it is that it's a personal opinion he holds, he does not force it on anyone. He has not attacked you personally for rejecting God (which is the ultimate sin, and thus immoral in Christian belief). He has addressed your arguments respectfully. It's common decency to return the favour.
    No. My dead atheist friend has no opportunity to repent.
    But he did have that opportunity.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    The fact that people break rules says nothing about where these rules come from.
    You believe our conscience comes from god, yet it can be shown how altruism is an evolved trait (Dawkins's The Selfish Gene goes into this in great detail) that is needed for a social species to survive. There is no need to invoke a deity to understand us having a conscience.

    I don't believe ethical behaviour and altruism are the same thing. Altruism is "I'll scratch my back if you scratch mine" behaviour. Ethical behaviour is genuinely caring for your fellow man in and of itself even if it is of detriment to you. The latter is the example that Christians have in Christ. It's something I'm striving for but admittedly it is difficult.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭Cú Giobach


    Seachmall wrote: »
    He believes God will send your friend to hell. He believes God is all good. He believes God's ultimate decisions are moral. He is not judging your friend.

    A comment regarding dv's argument.

    Lets put this into a human crime & punishment context, say the stoning of adulterous women in certain countries.
    Now I could say, I think that law is just, I don't want to see anyone stoned and women have the opportunity not to be stoned by not committing the crime but if they do, then they receive the punishment. Me not wanting to see someone stoned doesn't take away from the fact I agree with a barbaric punishment.
    I wonder how someone would be received with that attitude?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭Cú Giobach


    philologos wrote: »
    I don't believe ethical behaviour and altruism are the same thing. Altruism is "I'll scratch my back if you scratch mine" behaviour. Ethical behaviour is genuinely caring for your fellow man in and of itself even if it is of detriment to you. The latter is the example that Christians have in Christ. It's something I'm striving for but admittedly it is difficult.
    The genuine feeling of caring is the vehicle by which altruism is transmitted.
    It's not some abstract feeling but an evolved physiological necessity for altruistic behaviour.


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