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Shortage of IT staff?

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,016 ✭✭✭CreepingDeath


    syklops wrote: »
    There was a time when every IT student learnt some level of Java so I would say there is no shortage of Java devs, but maybe they are looking for other skillsets.

    Java is just the base language, there's a huge number of libraries and technologies companies look for too, and people with good experience in enterprise level development are hard to come by.

    We're recruiting now, and have only got 1 Irish CV and about 20 Spanish CVs for a fairly standard J2EE development job. And those are Spanish who aren't in the country now, but willing to come over.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,064 ✭✭✭Gurgle


    MagicRon wrote: »
    There is nothing wrong with that attitude - If an employer is serious about holding onto good staff, they should pay up.

    Who in their right mind would stay with a company if there were better opportunities elsewhere!?
    What manager in his right mind would hire a graduate in the expectation that he's going to take the salary, training and experience then leave without ever being a productive employee?

    It works out much better to insist on 5 years experience, in the hope that after 5 years they've got their experience (at a previous employer's expense) settled down and can actually do something useful.

    A bit of a bummer for graduates though...


  • Registered Users Posts: 138 ✭✭MagicRon


    Gurgle wrote: »
    What manager in his right mind would hire a graduate in the expectation that he's going to take the salary, training and experience then leave without ever being a productive employee?

    The same manager who will increase the wage of the graduate yearly as they gain more experience. Not the manager who will hire the graduate, give them 24k and then expect them to remain on that wage for 5 years.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,298 ✭✭✭Duggys Housemate


    Back to the restriction. The US pays very high wages in Silicon valley, in part because it restricts visas, to H1b holders, which would be the equivalent for Ireland o fleeting in just about 600 people a year. Irish software houses can already offer work to anybody in Europe, I don't see why the rest of the world would need to be opened up - and people can earn more money in London anyway, so that is not going to work.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,977 ✭✭✭youcancallmeal


    From my own personal experience. I have been in IT for about 6 years now, started working for HP resetting passwords over the phone for barely more than the dole. 4 jobs later and I've worked my way up to a software developer position. Very happy with my pay and the IT management. Anyway point is I have met a lot people along the way and right now I don't know of anyone looking for a job(Maybe 30-40 people). Thats across all different areas of IT too. My last job went belly up after I had left and all the people in the IT Dept had jobs within no less than a month max.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 20,851 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    Gurgle wrote: »
    I believe its more to do with over a decade of job hopping. IT staff in particular have a (well earned) reputation for joining a company, adding its various software / systems to their CV and then moving on to bigger and better paychecks within a year.

    Not much incentive for a company to hire & train recent graduates.

    Maybe if companies didn't insult their employees by offering below inflation pay increases every year, people might not have to job hop regularly. In my last company, I ended up being paid less than graduates after 3 years as the starting salary was increased in line with inflation and I was getting less than that (despite above average performance reviews). Somehow I don't think I was the one in the wrong for leaving.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,064 ✭✭✭Gurgle


    MagicRon wrote: »
    Not the manager who will hire the graduate, give them 24k and then expect them to remain on that wage for 5 years.
    Stark wrote:
    In my last company, I ended up being paid less than graduates after 3 years as the starting salary was increased in line with inflation and I was getting less than that
    Feck, is it really that bad?
    I'm glad I went into hardware instead of software.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,977 ✭✭✭youcancallmeal


    Stark wrote: »
    In my last company, I ended up being paid less than graduates after 3 years as the starting salary was increased in line with inflation and I was getting less than that (despite above average performance reviews).

    Last job I was working in this happened and I didn't even realise until they called me in and said my salary was being increased to match the new starters. Sounds like you were just working pr*cks?


  • Registered Users Posts: 138 ✭✭MagicRon


    Last job I was working in this happened and I didn't even realise until they called me in and said my salary was being increased to match the new starters. Sounds like you were just working pr*cks?

    Why was your salary increased to only match the new starters?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,298 ✭✭✭Duggys Housemate


    In many ways those salaries are ridiculously small. I was earning 27k£ Irish in 1999. I am still doing better than most ( and better than that) but we were probably better grads back then, given the fact that the pay was better.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 470 ✭✭JoePie


    I can think of three problems with the vacancies.

    A lot of jobs I see out there, and some of them I would be interested in applying for, require a second language because there is some level of support work involved. If they don't require a second language, a CV with one on it is probably going to be favoured more. And the majority of Irish people just don't have the second language.

    Combined roles. As in: web developer/graphic designer. I understand there is cross-over, and I see so many positions advertised for this, but if you can't get someone who can do both, should you not cut your losses and split the job description?

    Experience. A lot of places want someone with 5 years experince. Fair enough. If you've got 5 years experience, you're going to be established where you are and not necessarily going to want to go. And there are who knows how many graduates sitting around scratching themselves, with the skillsets needed. Maybe not 5 years of experience, but again, it's not the time to be picky. A company wants someone with 5 years experience, and the people looking for the jobs can't get the experience because they don't have 5 years experience. Vicious circle.

    I get that it all comes down to money, but I still can't see how "spend money to make money" doesn't make sense to these companies. Short-term thinking is too dominant.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,977 ✭✭✭youcancallmeal


    MagicRon wrote: »
    Why was your salary increased to only match the new starters?

    I was only there a few months, not even out of probation period.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭ Fiona Cuddly Toothpick


    MagicRon wrote: »
    How many companies have you applied to work with and how many said you didn't have enough experience? How well do you know everything you did in college? ... have you a portfolio or a website created with your CV on it?... have you worked on any projects in your own time? ... Have you ever worked on an open source project? What programming languages have you played around with?

    The company I work with, in Dublin, are looking for graduates.

    I've covered HTML5, CSS3, JavaScript, Jquery, Ruby on Rails,MySQL, Flash and a little bit of ASP.net
    Ive also done Wordpress.

    I can get my way around other peoples code which is about as much as a conversion course will give anyone.
    Ive developed a few ecommerce sites in Ruby for College along with some Client Side sites.
    I'm currently working on a site for a charity using fluid design. Ive a prototype version done for a college project but it needs to be redesigned before it can go live.

    After having 0ver 20 years in transport I took the opportunity to retrain when i was made redundant.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,689 Mod ✭✭✭✭stevenmu


    I think on the one hand that there is a definite issue with salaries being offered. I get a ton of emails every week from recruiters who have my details from years ago. They all have plenty of jobs that need to be "urgently" filled. But while they're all looking for college degrees, many years of experience, and a huge list of specialist skills/qualifications, they all seem to be offering in and about the average industrial wage. No offense meant to unskilled workers, but if somebody goes to the effort of getting a good 3rd level education, working hard to get skills and then keep them up to date, and is willing to work hard in a tough field, I think it's fair that they expect to be paid more than the average McDonalds burger flipper.

    There's also a general impression out there that IT is just a cost. And that the less you can spend on it the better. I've worked on a ton of projects over the last few years, and I've been amazed at how many customers have started into project looking at it as a cost that simply needed to be paid, and they have been surprised at the end by how much more productive they can be with a good system in place, and quite often how much more profitable their organisation can be.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18 questiontime2


    I regret doing a software development degree. Might as well just burn the damm thing, a 2:1 with a little experience does not mean squat in Ireland, unless it's from Trinity. I feel like I've just wasted years of my life and nothing to show for it:o

    Time to start a business and patent some process or idea. That or leave the country. I have had very negative experiences with graduate roles, people wasting my time with bull**** psychometric tests and other quackery. Whoever said the IT industry in Ireland is stable for graduates, is simply lying through their teeth.

    I can barely afford to pay rent. Self employed people aren't entitled to welfare payments, so I might as well just pack my bags and move to London. Ireland is not a country I want to live in anymore. It's not the country I remember growing up in. Part time jobs at 16 where easier to get than now.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,246 ✭✭✭conor.hogan.2


    I regret doing a software development degree. Might as well just burn the damm thing, a 2:1 with a little experience does not mean squat in Ireland, unless it's from Trinity. I feel like I've just wasted years of my life and nothing to show for it:o

    Time to start a business and patent some process or idea. That or leave the country. I have had very negative experiences with graduate roles, people wasting my time with bull**** psychometric tests and other quackery. Whoever said the IT industry in Ireland is stable for graduates, is simply lying through their teeth.

    I can barely afford to pay rent. Self employed people aren't entitled to welfare payments, so I might as well just pack my bags and move to London. Ireland is not a country I want to live in anymore. It's not the country I remember growing up in. Part time jobs at 16 where easier to get than now.

    Keep looking and you will find a job. I only did a Conversion MSc and got work after a while. Avoid recruiters, or at least do not expect much from them. It took well over a month and literally 100's of emails and phones calls and a few interviews.


  • Registered Users Posts: 138 ✭✭MagicRon


    I regret doing a software development degree. Might as well just burn the damm thing, a 2:1 with a little experience does not mean squat in Ireland, unless it's from Trinity. I feel like I've just wasted years of my life and nothing to show for it:o

    Time to start a business and patent some process or idea. That or leave the country. I have had very negative experiences with graduate roles, people wasting my time with bull**** psychometric tests and other quackery. Whoever said the IT industry in Ireland is stable for graduates, is simply lying through their teeth.

    I can barely afford to pay rent. Self employed people aren't entitled to welfare payments, so I might as well just pack my bags and move to London. Ireland is not a country I want to live in anymore. It's not the country I remember growing up in. Part time jobs at 16 where easier to get than now.

    1. You don't need a Trinity degree
    2. It is very easy to get a job in IT in Ireland. If this isn't your experience then you either don't know your stuff, are terrible at interviews, or simply haven't tried finding a job.

    I've seen three people in this thread say that they are working in a company that is looking for graduates. I see a recent post in the sticky looking for graduates. Have you contacted or sent your CV to these people?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,298 ✭✭✭Duggys Housemate


    Irish recruiters are uniformly crap.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18 questiontime2


    Irish recruiters are uniformly crap.

    I get the impression that these "recruitment" agencies are employed to play tech buzzword soup while harvesting your details to offload for sale to different types of intelligence agencies or some other shady private entity. I now regard ALL recruiters as fecal laden parasitical scammers. Any time I got an interview, it was through a direct employer.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,561 ✭✭✭✭Frisbee


    MagicRon wrote: »
    If the job advert says graduate, it shouldn't say 5+ years.

    If it does, then a graduate shouldn't apply nor should someone with 5+ years experience. If there are people applying to these jobs, then they need a schmack.

    Are you working now?

    I know. If they want someone with 5+ years expereince then fair enough. But to advertise the job as a graduate position and then claim they want 5+ years experience is ridiculous tbh.

    I ended up leaving for Australia. I'm working in the Networks and Messaging team for a big law firm on a contract atm. Contract is up Tuesday after next though. It's tough out here to get a job in IT though if you're only on a Working Holdiay Visa. I've had places call me back and say they're happy for me to come in for interview and one was going to let me start without and interview, but once they find out your on a WHV it all goes out the window.

    The fact I had zero IT experience limited the amount of jobs I could realistically expect to get too though tbh. A degree on its own isn't worth the paper it's written on. I'm hoping I'll be able to pick up something else easier now that I have an Australian reference and Australian work experience. I'll get a good reference out of this place too as I've worked my ass off, come in early, stayed late and volunteered to work 12 hour shifts today, Saturday and Sunday and the same again next week.

    I have my foot in the door now. All I need to do is make sure I kick the bastard open :pac:


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,145 ✭✭✭DonkeyStyle \o/


    stevenmu wrote: »
    But while they're all looking for college degrees, many years of experience, and a huge list of specialist skills/qualifications, they all seem to be offering in and about the average industrial wage.
    I spotted a php mysql jquery role for 30k, that's like what, €15 an hour before tax? Why don't I just become a bin man or a security guard?
    At least you'd have some craic on the job, maybe some conversation instead of staring into a screen, wondering if it's possible to drop dead from stress.
    *rubs temples*


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,064 ✭✭✭Gurgle


    stevenmu wrote: »
    I think it's fair that they expect to be paid more than the average McDonalds burger flipper.
    A McDonalds burger flipper does not earn average industrial wage. Try minimum wage, approx €17k.
    Why don't I just become a bin man or a security guard?
    As above.


  • Registered Users Posts: 138 ✭✭MagicRon


    I spotted a php mysql jquery role for 30k... instead of staring into a screen, wondering if it's possible to drop dead from stress.

    If working in IT to you is just staring at a screen, you should probably take that bin man job ;)

    Some very silly responses in this thread. From people who reckon there are no companies taking grads (after users saying they can't find grads) to people saying they'd be better off collecting bins than working for 30k (because that one job listing reflects the situation of the entire country and because these people would be on 30k for the rest of their lives). Not hating on anyone of you, but it definitely isn't as bad out there as some of you reckon.

    Where is that job located? ... what experience are they looking for? ... and how much experience have you? If you have no experience, then 30k is brilliant. If you have loads of experience, look at jobs offering more than 30k. Simple!

    You can't just pick out a salary from a job listing and call it normal. Location, experience, etc will impact the salary offered.


  • Registered Users Posts: 507 ✭✭✭bigbadcon


    Our Junior Dev of 2 years just handed in his notice to go to another role that is offering him close to 20k more!!

    Funnily enough our boss is now seeing if he can match the salary.

    Problem is that its too late and even if he could match the salary I dont think he would stay and I dont blame him.

    He is too good to be handling all of the bull**** that none of the more senior guys want to do and the company is so small that theres no where for him to move up and we cant hire any graduates to fill his role.

    Any of the CVs we got for the job were all utter crap.

    Looks like Ill be stung covering his support role now..

    Hmmm good opportunity to get myself a payrise I think.... :cool:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,145 ✭✭✭DonkeyStyle \o/


    MagicRon wrote: »
    If working in IT to you is just staring at a screen, you should probably take that bin man job ;)
    :D

    Don't mind me, I'm stressed out. The thought of jumping ship and living a more simple life is a recurring fantasy.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,298 ✭✭✭Duggys Housemate


    :D

    Don't mind me, I'm stressed out. The thought of jumping ship and living a more simple life is a recurring fantasy.

    The other problem with that salary is it is only €15 a hour if you work 8 hour days, it is €12 if you work 10 hours a day. Working somewhere even at 50K on ten hours a day on average, including some weekends, doesn't even make you that much better off than somebody in an unskilled job who does overtime, and a bit of ( double paid) weekend work.

    This is a problem, the software industry used to realise it was competing for talent, for IQ with other jobs.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,144 ✭✭✭dazberry


    :D
    Don't mind me, I'm stressed out. The thought of jumping ship and living a more simple life is a recurring fantasy.

    I jumped ship recently, to find myself on the RMS Titanic :(

    D.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18 questiontime2


    Keep looking and you will find a job. I only did a Conversion MSc and got work after a while. Avoid recruiters, or at least do not expect much from them. It took well over a month and literally 100's of emails and phones calls and a few interviews.

    Fairy play. You have the right mindset. Keep trying until something comes along. It's worked in the past no problem, but these recruitment agencies appear to be sucking up most of the job adverts now. Just gotta keep tryomg as they say:)


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,246 ✭✭✭conor.hogan.2


    Fairy play. You have the right mindset. Keep trying until something comes along. It's worked in the past no problem, but these recruitment agencies appear to be sucking up most of the job adverts now. Just gotta keep tryomg as they say:)

    Ignore recruiters if you have no experience, I got no interview through any recruiter but sent more applications to recruiters than directly to companies because as you said most of the jobs are advertised through these agencies.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    If you've no experience consider the first few jobs as a means of getting the right experience to lead up to the right job. So it can less be than ideal. Probbaly some of the worst jobs I've had gave me great experience. Even if was just to know what jobs/people to avoid.

    But don't compromise on getting the right experience, or getting out before you get bogged down in work that's not useful to you getting the next job.


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