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What does it mean to be a 'Man' in modern society?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,847 ✭✭✭py2006


    So women want to be equals in the workplace, but still maintain the near monopoly on child care, while men want to women to pull their weight financially, but will still expect them to do the bulk of the housework.

    It's a bit of a mess, TBH.

    Sorry to butt in here but do you really think men "expect" women to do the bulk of house work nowadays?

    I don't know of any man who expects this. Perhaps, the older (post 50) more traditional man may do.

    They may get lazy, forgetful or don't feel it necessary at times (as in the floor doesn't need to be moped daily). But I don't believe many men these days feel that it is the role of a woman necessarily. Not from my experience anyway.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    py2006 wrote: »
    They may get lazy, forgetful or don't feel it necessary at times (as in the floor doesn't need to be moped daily).
    Yup. That's normally the excuse used to justify it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 695 ✭✭✭yawha


    Less rigidly defined roles perhaps, but we do still impose them on each other.

    If you don't believe me, try getting a woman if you're an average man who would rather be a house-husband than have a career or getting a man if you're an average woman who does not spend an inordinate amount of time on her appearance.

    Well yes and no as that would be the cherry picking I mentioned earlier.

    Problem is that we've not really defined what the new roles are and so everyone, both men and women, are cherry picking what they like from both systems. This would be fine if we could have a balance, that meshed together, but instead both genders seem to be choosing equality only when it suits and tradition also only when it also suits. There is no agreement on what these roles should be; equal, traditional, somewhere in-between - and if the last no one agrees on where.

    So women want to be equals in the workplace, but still maintain the near monopoly on child care, while men want to women to pull their weight financially, but will still expect them to do the bulk of the housework.

    It's a bit of a mess, TBH.
    Idk. Neither women nor men are a single entity, and no amount of "the vast majority of..." rhetoric has done much to convince me otherwise.

    Sure there's no agreement on roles etc., but so what? Some are more traditional, some are more progressive, some have double standards or logically unreasonable stances on things, yes, but unreasonable people have always existed.

    I think there are plenty of different, diverse people of both genders out there. I've certainly met many, and I've personally never found that the "have your cake and eat it" attitude you mention with regards benevolent vs malevolent sexism towards women is as prevalent as you make out.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,847 ✭✭✭py2006


    Yup. That's normally the excuse used to justify it.

    I am not sure what you mean by "justify" here. Justify their belief that it is a womans role to do the housework?

    I really don't know where you get your ideas on men from. In my experience it would be very unusual for a man under 40, certainly under 35, to have this attitude.

    As a man myself I do not expect a woman to do all the housework nor do any of my male friends and I have never met a man who does.

    We all get lazy from time to time with regards certainly chores but that doesn't mean it is not attributed to our gender. However, I do refuse to bulk iron clothes!! I iron what is required for the next day! :P


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    yawha wrote: »
    I've certainly met many, and I've personally never found that the "have your cake and eat it" attitude you mention with regards benevolent vs malevolent sexism towards women is as prevalent as you make out.
    While obviously there are individual cases where such cherry picking by men are not present, statistically (not rhetorically, so it may satisfy you) it does appear that it is fairly prevalent:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6382429.stm
    http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2007-08/gmu-nsf082707.php

    Please bare in mind that I am not suggesting that such men are indeed 'malevolent' chauvinist pigs, only that people when allowed to define their own moral or ethical frameworks with tend to do so in a manner that suits them.
    py2006 wrote: »
    I am not sure what you mean by "justify" here. Justify their belief that it is a womans role to do the housework?
    No. Even if that is the subconscious belief, it cannot consciously justify it. Men do less housework than their girlfriends/wives because they 'forget' or 'not as fastidious' or are 'too busy' or a dozen other reasons - but the result is the same.

    Men "do not expect a woman to do all the housework" but somehow women, on average, still do the majority of it in relationships. I suspect most men who do this don't even realize this - I certainly didn't until I looked at it objectively over a period of time.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 852 ✭✭✭PrincessLola


    It doesn't sit well with me that men view anyhing remotely feminine as somehow demeaning or beneath them.
    Society has become more equal and certain posters on here view that as evil wimmin taking over.
    Guys, if the vast majority of world leaders were women and any movie with a mostly male cast was shunned as a man's flick you would call it a feminist conspiracy, guarranteed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,847 ✭✭✭py2006


    Guys, if the vast majority of world leaders were women and any movie with a mostly male cast was shunned as a man's flick you would call it a feminist conspiracy, guarranteed.

    If the vast majority of world leaders were women then most countries wouldn't be talking to each other. :) Chick flicks refers to the story more so than the casting!


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,933 ✭✭✭Logical Fallacy


    It doesn't sit well with me that men view anyhing remotely feminine as somehow demeaning or beneath them.
    Society has become more equal and certain posters on here view that as evil wimmin taking over.
    Guys, if the vast majority of world leaders were women and any movie with a mostly male cast was shunned as a man's flick you would call it a feminist conspiracy, guarranteed.

    Some men, not all.

    Most movies with a mostly male cast are called "man flicks", which is awesome...as clearly the only thing i like in my movies are explosions and tits.

    If this was a different forum there would be mention of looking at things from a certain perspective.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,847 ✭✭✭py2006


    Some men, not all.

    Most movies with a mostly male cast are called "man flicks", which is awesome...as clearly the only thing i like in my movies are explosions and tits.

    If this was a different forum there would be mention of looking at things from a certain perspective.

    I presume you are being sarcastic? :confused:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,207 ✭✭✭jaffacakesyum


    py2006 wrote: »
    If the vast majority of world leaders were women then most countries wouldn't be talking to each other. :) Chick flicks refers to the story more so than the casting!

    If the vast majority of world leaders were women maybe countries wouldn't be blowing each other up all the time.

    It's fun to generalise! :rolleyes: :pac:


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,847 ✭✭✭py2006


    If the vast majority of world leaders were women maybe countries wouldn't be blowing each other up all the time.

    It's fun to generalise! :rolleyes: :pac:

    Oh plz! If the other leader had a nicer pair of shoes there would be war!

    I jest of course...







    ...or do I?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,207 ✭✭✭jaffacakesyum


    py2006 wrote: »
    Oh plz! If the other leader had a nicer pair of shoes there would be war!

    I jest of course...







    ...or do I?

    :pac: lol

    I'm not offended by either iof your posts by the way, I just wanted to point out that had I made my generalisation I'm sure somebody would call me up on it (maybe even you? :P )

    Anyway, very off topic. I apologise :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,862 ✭✭✭iptba


    py2006 wrote: »
    Sorry to butt in here but do you really think men "expect" women to do the bulk of house work nowadays?

    I don't know of any man who expects this. Perhaps, the older (post 50) more traditional man may do.

    They may get lazy, forgetful or don't feel it necessary at times (as in the floor doesn't need to be moped daily).
    I think this is an important point which rarely seems to get articulated in such discussions: for whatever reason, men and women seem to have, on average, different standards with regard to housework. This seems to come out particularly when somebody might be visiting.

    Who knows why this is. Women seem to be more interested in interior decoration/design for whatever reason. I'm inclined to believe its some inherent average difference, although I'm sure others, who think the average differences between men and women are just socialised, won't agree.

    And I'm not sure why we should assume that the standard of housework a woman wants is the "right level".


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 695 ✭✭✭yawha


    lolwut? How is that an important point? I guess noticing general trends in difference of attitudes between the sexes is mildly interesting, but it's a pretty trivial issue.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    yawha wrote: »
    lolwut? How is that an important point? I guess noticing general trends in difference of attitudes between the sexes is mildly interesting, but it's a pretty trivial issue.
    It's a valid point to an extent, although I'm not certain that I'd agree with it.

    If 'men and women seem to have, on average, different standards with regard to housework' (presuming men have a 'lower' or 'less fastidious' one), then it would follow that men will do less housework as their standard can be more easily met, while women - unhappy with this standard - will bring it up to the one that they're happy with (from a male perspective she would be creating unnecessary work for herself).

    Where I'd disagree is that I would not agree with such a stereotypical difference of attitudes between the sexes - I think we've all met enough female 'slobs' and 'fastidious' males to debunk that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,862 ✭✭✭iptba


    It's a valid point to an extent, although I'm not certain that I'd agree with it.

    If 'men and women seem to have, on average, different standards with regard to housework' (presuming men have a 'lower' or 'less fastidious' one), then it would follow that men will do less housework as their standard can be more easily met, while women - unhappy with this standard - will bring it up to the one that they're happy with (from a male perspective she would be creating unnecessary work for herself).
    Yes, that's exactly the point I'm making.
    Where I'd disagree is that I would not agree with such a stereotypical difference of attitudes between the sexes - I think we've all met enough female 'slobs' and 'fastidious' males to debunk that.
    And I've met enough to believe there is an average difference.
    Do you also disagree with my suggestion that women on average have more of an interest in interior decoration/design than men?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,862 ✭✭✭iptba


    yawha wrote: »
    lolwut? How is that an important point? I guess noticing general trends in difference of attitudes between the sexes is mildly interesting, but it's a pretty trivial issue.
    I thought it would have been clear that I was saying it was an important point in terms of the specific point in the discussion (as opposed to an important point in terms of everything in life).

    The suggestion is that many men are deliberately leaving work for women. However, if men see that women are in effect creating work for themselves, they are not being negligent as it were. Yet, generally when we hearing discussions, this idea is not brought up.

    If you feel the issue is trivial, probably best to leave it to other people who might be interested in it. We could all go around threads and say, "Lol, why are you talking about something which isn't important". It wouldn't make for a good environment.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    iptba wrote: »
    Do you also disagree with my suggestion that women on average have more of an interest in interior decoration/design than men?
    The old nest-building instinct theory?

    TBH, this is one of those areas where I would not entirely trust myself to be judge objectively, largely because most men have more interest in interior decoration/design than me.

    You do raise an interesting point vis-à-vis redundant housework, however I do feel that this, even if true, alone would not explain the statistical disparity between the genders with regards to the division of housework.

    I do believe that we men do, regrettably, still have a bit of chauvinism lurking in our psyche.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,862 ✭✭✭iptba


    The old nest-building instinct theory?

    TBH, this is one of those areas where I would not entirely trust myself to be judge objectively, largely because most men have more interest in interior decoration/design than me.
    I don't think one needs to apply any theory, although perhaps that is the reason. It would just seem empirically that the interior decoration/design market (magazines, etc.) is consumed more by women. The people who do such courses in college are nearly all women, etc. I've heard women say things that I would not associate with (heterosexual) men e.g. the pleasure they can get flicking through such magazines - it's almost like pornography (but not in a bad way). For whatever reason, there seems to be a bit of a difference to me.

    But some men, perhaps more in those who are older, should do more at home. I remember my mum mentioning a man who, when his wife came home from the hospital after giving birth, started looking for his wife to make some tea for him.

    But even among the younger generations, I don't think DIY jobs are divided 50/50 between men and women.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    I don't disagree with much of what you're saying, however I would contend that much of this disparity is as a result of persistent gender stereotypes that are to this day perpetuated within society, by both chauvinism and, ironically, post-Feminism.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,847 ✭✭✭HavingCrack


    iptba wrote: »

    But even among the younger generations, I don't think DIY jobs are divided 50/50 between men and women.

    When it comes to DIY I do find there is an element of physical strength that comes into play moreso than in other situations.

    The average man is physically stronger than the average woman. Quite a lot of DIY work requires lifting and hammering etc. and the average woman will tire quicker. Obviously there's things like painting etc. that strength does not come into it as much but a lot of DIY work is definately easier for men to do on average.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,943 ✭✭✭wonderfulname


    When it comes to DIY I do find there is an element of physical strength that comes into play moreso than in other situations.

    The average man is physically stronger than the average woman. Quite a lot of DIY work requires lifting and hammering etc. and the average woman will tire quicker. Obviously there's things like painting etc. that strength does not come into it as much but a lot of DIY work is definately easier for men to do on average.

    Not a theory I'd agree with, DIY is amateur by definition and you'll find it rarely involves anything where physicality differences between the sexes would actually matter, I have to say I'm almost offended that you suggest hammering of all things to be something a woman would be inherently less capable of.

    I'd put it to you that even in the younger generations, men are more likely to do the DIY because they are more likely to know how, it's traditionally the kind of skill set a father teaches his son, so the actions of the younger generations have been affected by the actions of their predecessors. It's one of many areas where the affects of our new found equal thinking aren't going to be immediately visible, because they've barely happened yet.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,862 ✭✭✭iptba


    Dudess wrote: »
    Could you provide even one example of these man-hating feminists, supported with examples of their behaviour?
    I've seen quite a few conversations where even some feminists say some other well-known feminists have man-hating/misandric tendencies.

    Here's a link to a sample list:
    http://www.fatherhoodcoalition.org/cpf/newreadings/2001/feminist_hate_speech.htm


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Not a theory I'd agree with, DIY is amateur by definition and you'll find it rarely involves anything where physicality differences between the sexes would actually matter, I have to say I'm almost offended that you suggest hammering of all things to be something a woman would be inherently less capable of.
    Absolutely. The strength necessary for the vast majority of household DIY is quite limited and most DIY is both mundane and requires little or no strength (electrics, being a prime example). If you look at pre-industrial age housework, women had to contend with some highly strenuous activities, from the carrying of heavy loads through to washing clothes by hand.

    The 'strength' argument is a bit of a red herring, IMHO. Suggesting that "a lot of DIY work is definitely easier for men to do on average" on that basis, effectively argues that any physical work should rather be done by men, which is ridiculous.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 695 ✭✭✭yawha


    If men are more likely to do DIY, it sort of contradicts the idea put forward earlier that women are more interested in interior decoration/design. Lots of DIY is centered around interior design.

    Lots of men are very into gardening too.

    I'm not sure that the idea that women want to do more housework as a result of an inherent difference due to gender holds much water.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,862 ✭✭✭iptba


    yawha wrote: »
    If men are more likely to do DIY, it sort of contradicts the idea put forward earlier that women are more interested in interior decoration/design. Lots of DIY is centered around interior design.
    Not necessarily. For one thing, it depends whose idea it was.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 37,215 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    iptba wrote: »
    Dudess wrote: »
    Could you provide even one example of these man-hating feminists, supported with examples of their behaviour?
    I've seen quite a few conversations where even some feminists say some other well-known feminists have man-hating/misandric tendencies.

    Here's a link to a sample list:
    http://www.fatherhoodcoalition.org/cpf/newreadings/2001/feminist_hate_speech.htm
    I'm not disputing that at all - but they're on the fringes. It's simply inaccurate to say they're a regular part of everyday life.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,862 ✭✭✭iptba


    Dudess wrote: »
    I'm not disputing that at all - but they're on the fringes. It's simply inaccurate to say they're a regular part of everyday life.
    Ok. It wasn't my point, so I'm not going to defend it.


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