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SEAI Home Energy Scheme All Heating Contractors

  • 10-03-2011 10:02pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 2,526 ✭✭✭


    To all fellow heating contractors registared with SEAI

    I am starting this thread to see if there is a general unhappy concensus with the direction of this scheme.

    As with every quaterly news letter they seem to be moving the goal posts and adding in more and more requirments thus increasing the cost to the end user (the consumer). Would it be at this stage more economical for the consumer to get a new high efficency boiler with heating controls with out all the bells and whistles required by SEAI.

    This thread is open to all and not just SEAI contractors, but there input would be very welcome.


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Comments

  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 19,340 CMod ✭✭✭✭Davy


    JohnnieK wrote: »
    Would it be at this stage more economical for the consumer to get a new high efficency boiler with heating controls with out all the bells and whistles required by SEAI.

    Definitely.


  • Registered Users Posts: 56 ✭✭Jedstaff


    I have to charge extra now for the seai grant jobs with all the extra bits.so I'm loosing out on jobs to cash merchants who just fit basic controls. Change overs are taking longer, about a day and a half (power flush / wiring ect) where other lads take a couple of hours .


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,526 ✭✭✭JohnnieK


    Jedstaff wrote: »
    I have to charge extra now for the seai grant jobs with all the extra bits.so I'm loosing out on jobs to cash merchants who just fit basic controls. Change overs are taking longer, about a day and a half (power flush / wiring ect) where other lads take a couple of hours .

    Break things down for them Jedstaff. Heating upgrade to SEAI standards for this price, New boiler with controls for this price, and so on.

    Regarding change overs I to was loosing out so I started doing change overs with a powerflush for this price or change over only for another price stating to them that it might affect there warranty. I would then get them to sign the invoice where I put powerflush recommended but not taken.

    I remember one job the guy came in and quoted a change over for €1400 including a powerflush, now you tell me how he managed that. I told the customer to ring me when he was finished. I met the customer and showed him my machine and the chemicals and asked him did he use one of them. You should of seen the look on his face.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭yoshytoshy


    With the boilers we install ,the log book has to be filled out for the five year guarantee. The system has to be flushed and everything to the specs of the manual.

    Thats usually good enough for people.


  • Registered Users Posts: 257 ✭✭kscobie


    The only way is a very detailed quotation, boiler type, model, efficiency,power flush, controls type and manufacturer, boiler warranty/passport, oftec no/rgii no, vat no,electricans details, the more info, the better. This shows up the cowboys, makes the customer as questions


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  • Registered Users Posts: 56 ✭✭Jedstaff


    I'd say that's the best way all right.a lot of people still think cheapest is best though! At a job last month where woman paid 1500 cash for boiler change. But plumber wouldn't call back after one month to rectify fault,I'd love to name and shame him. He's rgii all right, I suppose that's something!:confused:


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,526 ✭✭✭JohnnieK


    Jedstaff wrote: »
    I'd say that's the best way all right.a lot of people still think cheapest is best though! At a job last month where woman paid 1500 cash for boiler change. But plumber wouldn't call back after one month to rectify fault,I'd love to name and shame him. He's rgii all right, I suppose that's something!:confused:

    If you know who he is you should report him to RGII. I would not entertain that woman either, calling you back to fix some one's problem.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3 steven82


    Getting back to the origonal comment. Yes, SEAI's involvment in boiler changes has made life difficult for all installers. The installers are expected to rectify pervious oversights in old building regulations and also add on additional electrial items that have little or nothing to do with boilers or saving money. The cost of satisfying SEAI is around €1400 extra and the customer only gets an €800 grant (including BER grant).
    The way the grant scheme is set up, its set up to suit the large firms. 2 years warranty is another crazy compulsary T&C in the small print. Suits ESB and Board Gais who have the crews to easily manage that.
    Im offering boiler quotes with the grant and SEAI frills and also a standard changeout with zoing. Only time will tell which way the consumers will prefer.
    The penalty points system has been introduced incorrectly also. ONly started recently tho they are checking jobs from pre-penalty point scheme and issuing points for those jobs.
    Its like the goverment lowering the speed limit and fining everyone who broke the lower limt before it was even introduced


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,262 ✭✭✭✭Joey the lips


    steven82 wrote: »
    . The cost of satisfying SEAI is around €1400 extra and the customer only gets an €800 grant (including BER grant).
    The way the grant scheme is set up, its set up to suit the large firms. 2

    Interesting. The same problem occurs in bathrooms as well. You are far more cheaper installing a wet room with wall grips than a disabled bathroom through a specialist company. i often point this out to physio and occupational therapests who can you point this to....


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,001 ✭✭✭Royal Seahawk


    Can someone elaborate on a power flush please,thanks.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,526 ✭✭✭JohnnieK


    Can someone elaborate on a power flush please,thanks.

    A powerflush is the chemical treatment of a central heating system. A chemical is added to the system and aloud to circulate for anything from a hour up to a week, depending on how bad the system is. A machine called a power flusher is then connected to the system via the boiler connections or a radiator. The machine then flushes the pipework and radiators and cleanses them. An inhibitor is then added to prevent further corrosion. It must also be noted that an inhibitor dose not last forever and must be replenished after time. Also open vented system should be flushed every 10 years.

    Also when installing a new boiler on a system the system should be flushed as per manufacturers recommendations. It is possible that the warranty might might be affected if the boiler was put on a dirty system.

    The flushing process on most domestic installations would take a day. If someone offers a new boiler and flushing of the system and dose it in one day I doubt they are doing it properly.


  • Registered Users Posts: 198 ✭✭Donadea Leo


    As a customer (without a lot of knowledge of these things), I got a quote for heating controls upgrade as thought it would be a great thing to have done - just shy of 3k. Quickly put that out of my head.
    Boiler though not a condensing one seems to be working fine so not inclined to change that. There was a bit of work in order to add zones to separate hot water from radiators - fanciest gizmo I have currently is a timer so I'm sure there's a bit of work in it. Had originally thought this was someone still believing in the celtic tiger but maybe not reading this thread.
    Would adding TRVs to all radiators be counted as a zone - would this work or would SEAI not approve this?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,526 ✭✭✭JohnnieK


    As a customer (without a lot of knowledge of these things), I got a quote for heating controls upgrade as thought it would be a great thing to have done - just shy of 3k. Quickly put that out of my head.
    Boiler though not a condensing one seems to be working fine so not inclined to change that. There was a bit of work in order to add zones to separate hot water from radiators - fanciest gizmo I have currently is a timer so I'm sure there's a bit of work in it. Had originally thought this was someone still believing in the celtic tiger but maybe not reading this thread.
    Would adding TRVs to all radiators be counted as a zone - would this work or would SEAI not approve this?

    SEAI would not approve I'm afraid. You have to be able to independently control the temperature and the time of your hot water and heating.
    Even if you just went for a new boiler with a good programmable room thermostat and TRV's you would have a much more efficiant system than you already have and would probably come in a little cheaper.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3 greenwitenvy


    I think your all missing the point! SEAI have set this standard, because for years heating systems have being installed very inefficient. People have to look at the long term of their investment, not just the bottom figure(cost) of the installation!
    The whole idea is to save money in the long run with rising prices of oil and gas and I think that this message needs to get across to the customer.
    The extra Trv's, Motorised Valves, Stats and timeclocks and even the immersion timer.
    Most houses that I go into, the immersion is left on with the heating system also.
    I called to a job this week and the previous 2 plumbers had advised the customer not to go for the grant, that it was a waste of money!

    I feel that it sets the standards higher and keeps everyone on their toes and keeps the cash kings at bay(black market)


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,526 ✭✭✭JohnnieK


    Unfortunatly my friend the "cash kings" are very much out there and I for one am finding it hard to compete with them. I personally think the grant scheme is bull. The standard has always been there but just not implemented in the domestic market. When the grant was set up it was for a more "efficient" system and then they started bringing the building regs into it and as everyone knows if you go into 20 year old house the lack of building regs hits you straight away. To expext the installer to bring the installation up to the current ones is way to much to expect and a good bit of the time is not cost affective no matter how much oil or gas goes up.

    This thing about the 10sq earth bonding is one example. A lot of older houses dont have 20sq incoming mains so there is no need to upgrade the earth cable, but they still pull you up on it. If they want the cables upgraded get an electrician to do a rewire on the place.

    The grants for this are ending in 2013 thank god.


  • Registered Users Posts: 56 ✭✭Jedstaff


    Couldn't agree with you more johnniek. Can't wait till these grant jobs end and everyone is on an even keel pricing jobs.


  • Registered Users Posts: 44,080 ✭✭✭✭Micky Dolenz


    Maybe we should start a book on who gets to 10 pp first :P


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3 greenwitenvy


    Lads
    It's the only gig in town, only for it, I don't know where the work would come from. Can't see it going myself. I'd say it will be extended .
    They said the same about the solar grants! Remember


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭yoshytoshy


    Lads
    It's the only gig in town, only for it, I don't know where the work would come from. Can't see it going myself. I'd say it will be extended .
    They said the same about the solar grants! Remember

    Thats nonsense ,especially considering what is happening in Bord gais at the moment. It doesn't sound like you know whats going on.


  • Registered Users Posts: 757 ✭✭✭MiniGolf


    New grant rates out:
    Heating SystemHigh Efficiency Oil / Gas Boiler with Controls upgrade.€560
    Heating Controls Upgrade only
    €400
    Solar Heating€800

    taken from SEAI.ie!!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,526 ✭✭✭JohnnieK


    MiniGolf wrote: »
    New grant rates out:
    Heating SystemHigh Efficiency Oil / Gas Boiler with Controls upgrade.€560
    Heating Controls Upgrade only
    €400
    Solar Heating€800

    taken from SEAI.ie!!

    It's a great incentive for consumers to upgrade there heating systems all right. Reduce the grant:rolleyes:.
    There reason is because "the price of installations has gone down". Maybe I should show them the letters from DPL and heatmechants telling me that the price of pipe and fittings has gone up again. :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 44,080 ✭✭✭✭Micky Dolenz


    Now I won't have to reach 10 pp, I'm done with grant work.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3 steven82


    I think your all missing the point! SEAI have set this standard, because for years heating systems have being installed very inefficient. People have to look at the long term of their investment, not just the bottom figure(cost) of the installation!
    The whole idea is to save money in the long run with rising prices of oil and gas and I think that this message needs to get across to the customer.
    The extra Trv's, Motorised Valves, Stats and timeclocks and even the immersion timer.
    Most houses that I go into, the immersion is left on with the heating system also.
    I called to a job this week and the previous 2 plumbers had advised the customer not to go for the grant, that it was a waste of money!

    I feel that it sets the standards higher and keeps everyone on their toes and keeps the cash kings at bay(black market)
    My main issue is not all the extras SEAI are asking us to do or their standard, as everyone on the scheme must do all the extras to the same standard, so were all on a level playing field. The single biggest issue with SEAI is the fact that they have a "standard" that they want us to install to, but they cannot train us to it. We only find out about new items when you’re hit with a penalty point, or 3 in most cases. If they have a "standard", train us to it, and i know i will never get another penalty point again. Punishing us into shape is no way to train an industry. Circus's used to train the animals like that, and they don’t even do that anymore (supposedly)


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,515 ✭✭✭Outkast_IRE


    Did anybody ever get a reasonable answer as to why you need a automatic bypass, even if one is part of the system gas boiler you just installed ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,526 ✭✭✭JohnnieK


    The bypass in the boiler enables the minimum flow rate through the boiler in the event of all valves closing. This may not be sufficiant for the whole system and it say's this in nearly every boiler installation manual I know off.
    In most standard domestic installations the boiler bypass is sufficient but to know for certain you would have to expose every run of pipe to determin the size, any restrictions and water content to determin flow rates. This is not practical so an auto-bypass valve is fitted external to the boiler to be on the safe side.
    A pain in the bum but it has to be done to satisfy the suits.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,515 ✭✭✭Outkast_IRE


    JohnnieK wrote: »
    The bypass in the boiler enables the minimum flow rate through the boiler in the event of all valves closing. This may not be sufficiant for the whole system and it say's this in nearly every boiler installation manual I know off.
    In most standard domestic installations the boiler bypass is sufficient but to know for certain you would have to expose every run of pipe to determin the size, any restrictions and water content to determin flow rates. This is not practical so an auto-bypass valve is fitted external to the boiler to be on the safe side.
    A pain in the bum but it has to be done to satisfy the suits.
    To be honest on a lot of the grant work we do , they look for a new better insulated cylinder too , so changing the pipework isnt a problem, as theres motorized valves and all that going in aswell , its just another expense that the client doesnt realise , especially with the new grant rates its making people shy away from getting the extra work done .


  • Registered Users Posts: 44,080 ✭✭✭✭Micky Dolenz


    JohnnieK wrote: »
    The bypass in the boiler enables the minimum flow rate through the boiler in the event of all valves closing. This may not be sufficiant for the whole system and it say's this in nearly every boiler installation manual I know off.
    In most standard domestic installations the boiler bypass is sufficient but to know for certain you would have to expose every run of pipe to determin the size, any restrictions and water content to determin flow rates. This is not practical so an auto-bypass valve is fitted external to the boiler to be on the safe side.
    A pain in the bum but it has to be done to satisfy the suits.


    It only makes sense though on a system that has a pump over run on it. For an on demand system, it should not be required, as soon as stats are satisfied the system goes down almost immediately.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,526 ✭✭✭JohnnieK


    especially with the new grant rates its making people shy away from getting the extra work done .

    It looks to me as if they are trying to make the grant as unattractive as they can so people wont go for it. All this bull****e they said about the price of installations coming down was the reason the grant is lower is total nonsens. The fact is it has not come down and the other hard truth is that fittings have risen in price by about 12.5%.

    This whole thing is only going to promote the black economy in my eyes.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,526 ✭✭✭JohnnieK


    It only makes sense though on a system that has a pump over run on it. For an on demand system, it should not be required, as soon as stats are satisfied the system goes down almost immediately.

    Totally agree micky


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,492 ✭✭✭roy rodgers


    These grants are aload of ****!!

    Can anyone tell me why you cant have a thermostatic rad valve in the same room as the room stat???

    I done a small house in town recently and it is all open plan down stairs and I put on the TRV on all the rads and now I have to go back and take them all off because someone in SEAI reakons that they should not be there:confused:.
    I find people perfer the TRV because its handy to turn off a rad or they can see what number they have it set at..

    I think your right lads about they are trying to make as much unattractive as possible to do the work its just not worth the hassle for a ****ty price we are getting and then pay all the vat on it.
    Thats me finished with it for sure. "I'll doa good cash price forya missus!!"
    Thats going to be my new one.....


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