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I know I exist. Do you?

  • 12-11-2011 10:39am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 6


    The limitations to reality could be explained by the existence of at least one consciousness other than my own. Is it yours?


«1

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,184 ✭✭✭3ndahalfof6


    nope sorry you conjured me up, or did I conjure you up so I would have someone to send this post to.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,214 ✭✭✭wylo


    whythetyre wrote: »
    The limitations to reality could be explained by the existence of at least one consciousness other than my own. Is it yours?
    you dont exist sorry.:pac:


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,184 ✭✭✭3ndahalfof6


    if I was still here but never here before I was here, does this mean im just on my way, (not did it my way)


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,176 ✭✭✭nyarlothothep


    You could the product of a writer's imagination and he's writing everything that you say


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,552 ✭✭✭roosh


    What do you mean by "I"?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,214 ✭✭✭wylo


    roosh wrote: »
    What do you mean by "I"?

    lol you spoofer.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,184 ✭✭✭3ndahalfof6


    You could the product of a writer's imagination and he's writing everything that you say

    OK I like this 1, I'm going to win the lotto Saturday night.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,176 ✭✭✭nyarlothothep


    OK I like this 1, I'm going to win the lotto Saturday night.

    The author also writes the plot, he could be setting you up for a fall for dramatic effect.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,552 ✭✭✭roosh


    whythetyre wrote: »
    The limitations to reality could be explained by the existence of at least one consciousness other than my own. Is it yours?

    How could "the limitations to reality [...] be explained by the existence of at least one consciousness other than [your] own"?


  • Registered Users Posts: 23 YoungSpoon


    I'm far too lazy to think up an entire universe. Especially when I'm as tired as I am now.
    Although it is possible that I imagined that I was this lazy to prevent myself from figuring my own plans out. Probably to prevent everything from being predictable....y'know...since I thought of it.

    Maybe not.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,910 ✭✭✭Sisko


    Tell me, how do you truly know that you do exist?


  • Registered Users Posts: 23 YoungSpoon


    It doesn't really matter. This life feels real enough for me.
    Reality may be based on perception and perception is flawed, but if you get too bogged down on what's really going on, it's just a waste of time.
    It's close enough really.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,552 ✭✭✭roosh


    YoungSpoon wrote: »
    It doesn't really matter. This life feels real enough for me.
    Reality may be based on perception and perception is flawed, but if you get too bogged down on what's really going on, it's just a waste of time.
    It's close enough really.

    There is existence, that much is unquestionable; what can be subjected to critical reasoning and questioning, however, is what is meant by "me" when you refer to yourself?

    I would fully agree about not getting too bogged down in things, but our subconcsious beliefs about ourself has a great many consequences which directly affect our experience of life; it is said that all suffering is rooted in an incorrect perception of self, such that questioning that perception and developing a more accurate one can eliminate all suffering in our lives, and reduce the suffering of others.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,030 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    I made you write that OP.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,373 ✭✭✭im invisible


    it is said that all suffering is rooted in an incorrect perception of self[by whom?], such that questioning that perception and developing a more accurate one can eliminate all suffering in our lives,[citation needed] and reduce the suffering of others.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,821 ✭✭✭18AD


    YoungSpoon wrote: »
    It doesn't really matter. This life feels real enough for me.
    Reality may be based on perception and perception is flawed, but if you get too bogged down on what's really going on, it's just a waste of time.
    It's close enough really.

    Perception is not flawed. When you see a stick bent in water, that is actually what it looks like. When the moon appears bigger close too the horizon, that is actually what it looks like.

    The idea that perception is flawed is the reason you must then search for the "true" perception and possibly instigating the whole time wasting process. As long as perception is flawed, the "true" perception is one with no people.

    Or so some might say.
    it is said that all suffering is rooted in an incorrect perception of self[by whom?], such that questioning that perception and developing a more accurate one can eliminate all suffering in our lives,[citation needed] and reduce the suffering of others.

    Buddha?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,552 ✭✭✭roosh


    it is said that all suffering is rooted in an incorrect perception of self[by whom?], such that questioning that perception and developing a more accurate one can eliminate all suffering in our lives,[citation needed] and reduce the suffering of others.
    Refer to Buddhist teachings and/or other spiritual teachings; cross reference with spiritual practices and investigation of the nature of self.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,214 ✭✭✭wylo


    YoungSpoon wrote: »
    It doesn't really matter. This life feels real enough for me.
    Reality may be based on perception and perception is flawed, but if you get too bogged down on what's really going on, it's just a waste of time.
    It's close enough really.

    Depends really, its not a waste of time when you start working hard to look past flawed perception, the problem is you only realize its not a waste of time after you've done the work!!
    Hence so few people are interested.
    The people that are interested seem to be
    1. People that suffer due to their flawed perception,and understand it is because of the flawed perception
    2. Ridiculously curious people
    3. People that have had an 'experience' of sorts and are chasing "the truth".

    If none of that applies then its understandable that the topic wouldnt be of much interest.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 421 ✭✭Priori


    wylo wrote: »
    Depends really, its not a waste of time when you start working hard to look past flawed perception, the problem is you only realize its not a waste of time after you've done the work!!
    Hence so few people are interested.
    The people that are interested seem to be
    1. People that suffer due to their flawed perception,and understand it is because of the flawed perception
    2. Ridiculously curious people
    3. People that have had an 'experience' of sorts and are chasing "the truth".

    If none of that applies then its understandable that the topic wouldnt be of much interest.

    Interesting, particularly point 3. I would imagine that behind every notable philosopher is an intense experience, or series thereof, that form the impulse(s) that later lead to their works. Perhaps they 'reason-back' to rediscover this, or to recapture it, in a way that will make it last.

    Often, the philosopher may end up feeling like the attempt has failed, and it's back to the writing board...

    I don't agree that there is flawed perception, as 18AD said, the stick being bent in water is what it looks like; if it didn't appear bent, your perception wouldn't be obeying the laws of optics.

    The judgment that the stick is bent is another matter; it is not a case of a flawed perception, but of a flawed conception.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 421 ✭✭Priori


    Anyhow, to get back on thread...
    whythetyre wrote: »
    I know I exist. Do you?

    As roosh pointed out, the concept of existence isn't the concept in question, but the idea of the 'I'.

    However, even if you concede that your "I" may be a vast complex of interpenetrating feelings, judgments, and even personalities, there is still something that does this conceding, namely an "I" of sorts. In this sense it still "exists".

    At times, our "I"-consciousness may be far more intense than at other times, such that we may even feel as though we have only just "woken up" in those moments. This may naturally lead to the question, can something exist more so than something else, or is existence a flat-out property that admits of no degrees?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,214 ✭✭✭wylo


    Priori wrote: »
    Interesting, particularly point 3. I would imagine that behind every notable philosopher is an intense experience, or series thereof, that form the impulse(s) that later lead to their works. Perhaps they 'reason-back' to rediscover this, or to recapture it, in a way that will make it last.

    Often, the philosopher may end up feeling like the attempt has failed, and it's back to the writing board...

    I don't agree that there is flawed perception, as 18AD said, the stick being bent in water is what it looks like; if it didn't appear bent, your perception wouldn't be obeying the laws of optics.

    The judgment that the stick is bent is another matter; it is not a case of a flawed perception, but of a flawed conception.


    If a perception is making someone unhappy, and they can at least acknowledge that the way they are reacting to things doesn't correspond with what is actually happening in reality and it is due to their thought, as oppose to sense experience, then Id have no issue calling it a flawed perception.

    What I mean by that is
    "real" = the experience of your senses in real time ( I know thats illusory too but we're not going to go any further than that)
    "fake" or "flawed perception" = creating a belief of something in your head outside of your sense experience using thought and ideas.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,214 ✭✭✭wylo


    Priori wrote: »
    Anyhow, to get back on thread...



    As roosh pointed out, the concept of existence isn't the concept in question, but the idea of the 'I'.

    However, even if you concede that your "I" may be a vast complex of interpenetrating feelings, judgments, and even personalities, there is still something that does this conceding, namely an "I" of sorts. In this sense it still "exists".

    Just because it feels like there is something doing the conceding doesnt necessarily mean it exists.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 421 ✭✭Priori


    wylo wrote:
    "fake" or "flawed perception" = creating a belief of something in your head outside of your sense experience using thought and ideas.

    Well in that case you do mean conception, and not perception.

    I understand that 'perception' can often be used, in common parlance (I don't mean this derogatively), interchangeably with conception. In philosophy however, this would only lead to confusion.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,214 ✭✭✭wylo


    Ah right sorry, I didnt know that!:) Ill call it flawed conception so!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 421 ✭✭Priori


    wylo wrote: »
    Just because it feels like there is something doing the conceding doesnt necessarily mean it exists.

    I wouldn't say it feels as if something is doing the conceding; you either concede or you don't. This is a matter of fact, relating to whether a person accepts a proposition or not.

    Notice, also, that I said "I" of sorts, leaving quite open what your conception of the "I" actually is.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 421 ✭✭Priori


    wylo wrote: »
    Ah right sorry, I didnt know that!:) Ill call it flawed conception so!

    Btw I had a good aul look at my hand after reading your signature. Interesting thought experiment.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,214 ✭✭✭wylo


    The conception of the "I" that I say does not exist is an "I" that feels like the owner/subject/controller/experiencer of all experience.

    From an insight perspective , there is no "I", its just a continuous flow of experience , included in that flow is more thoughts to do with "I".

    But yea, from a non insight perspective, and day to day living, "I" is this human here who is typing this message.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 588 ✭✭✭MisterEpicurus


    There are many questions in philosophy which are worthwhile to pursue, however at the same time there are other invented questions which are needlessly asked and said for the amusement of philosophers.

    I think the question of this thread is one such example.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,214 ✭✭✭wylo


    That question completely changed my life. Outside of "what is the universe", i can't think of a more relevant philosophical question.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,552 ✭✭✭roosh


    There are many questions in philosophy which are worthwhile to pursue, however at the same time there are other invented questions which are needlessly asked and said for the amusement of philosophers.

    I think the question of this thread is one such example.

    I think questioning the nature of self is one of the more worthwhile philosophical and spiritual questions. As wylo says, it can be life changing.


This discussion has been closed.
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