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The Great Big 9/11 Conspiracy Theory Thread [Megamerge]

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭Nick_oliveri


    bonkey wrote:
    I'm not plugging it. I'm referencing it as a source of information because its about the best I've seen to date for what it tries to do.


    And here we have a typical "refutation" of the work on the site.

    Your reasoning, logic and argumentative skills leave me in awe. The manner in which you frame your argument, building piece on piece so that when the conclusion is formed it is both as inevitable as it is inarguable....its literally a joy to behold.

    With such a comprehensive set of criticisms of the site, its clear that I will have to abandon my previous, foolish belief that it had any merit.

    Meanwhile....back in the real world...

    He is right you know. You would have to explain why this site sucks with detailed arguments to the contrary of the content that it holds.

    Methinks this thread has done its rounds. I know i cant speak for everyone else, but im sick of the same points being dragged up (ive done this too!).

    Is it any surprise that the non-cons do not want to watch these videos, when all that is given is the link, no commentary, no critism, no detail and no arguement.

    Oh, this is brilliantzorz! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jSOxAiETUo

    I still dont know what i believe.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,005 ✭✭✭MeatProduct


    Apologies if this has already been referenced but I could find a reference to it in this thread, might have over-looked it. Early on in the thread it was mentioned that the BBC had a documentary that suggested some of the hijackers are still alive. I wanted to find something from the BBC that mentioned it and this is what I got:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1559151.stm

    This being the case I can only imagine two scenarios:

    1: Case of stolen/mistaken identity, quite possible but I would question the FBI's methods if that were the case

    or

    2: There's a bit of a cover-up since, if it were true, would be a sensation around the world.

    Nick


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,472 ✭✭✭So Glad


    Ditto. Of course, you are going to get a link completely denying that.

    You see. You can look in one site, and get something that will tell you this happened, then you go to another site and they will tell you it didn't. It really depends on who you trust at this point.

    It really is a crazy merry-go-round.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,701 ✭✭✭Diogenes


    Waleed and Wail were both mistakenly reported to have been found alive and well, by the BBC later in 2001. They were initially reported in error by a Saudi newspaper editor as the sons of Ahmed Alshehri, a senior Saudi diplomat stationed in Bombay, India. On September 16, 2001, the diplomat Ahmed Alshehri denied that he was the father of the two hijackers. Wail claims he did attend Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University in Daytona Beach, Florida - but was the victim of mistaken identity, since he used that training to secure his current position with a Moroccan airline company. Saudi Arabia has confirmed his story, and suggested he was the victim of identity theft.

    Muhammad Ali Al-Shihri, the hijacker al-Shehri brothers' true father, was identified prior to September 17, 2001, and told Arab News that he hadn't heard from his sons in ten months prior to September 2001.[9] An ABC News story in March 2002 repeated this, and during a report entitled "A Saudi Apology" for Dateline NBC on Aug 25 2002, NBC's reporter John Hockenberry traveled to 'Asir, where he interviewed the third brother, Salah, who agreed that his two brothers were dead and claimed they had been "brainwashed".

    Furthermore another article explains that the pilot who lives in Casablanca was named Walid al-Shri (not Waleed M. al-Shehri) and that much of the BBC information regarding "alive" hijackers was incorrect according to the same sources used by BBC. [10]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waleed_Al-Shehri#Aftermath

    Yes yes wikipedia, but if you open the link at the end you get this article which I referenced in the previous page
    Take the BBC, for example, which did in fact report, on September 23, 2001, that some of the alleged terrorists were alive and healthy and had protested their being named as assassins.

    But there is one wrinkle. The BBC journalist responsible for the story only recalls this supposed sensation after having been told the date on which the story aired. "No, we did not have any videotape or photographs of the individuals in question at that time," he says, and tells us that the report was based on articles in Arab newspapers, such as the Arab News, an English-language Saudi newspaper.

    The operator at the call center has the number for the Arab News on speed dial. We make a call to Jeddah, Saudi Arabia. A few seconds later, Managing Editor John Bradley is on the line. When we tell Bradley our story, he snorts and says: "That's ridiculous! People here stopped talking about that a long time ago."

    Bradley tells us that at the time his reporters did not speak directly with the so-called "survivors," but instead combined reports from other Arab papers. These reports, says Bradley, appeared at a time when the only public information about the attackers was a list of names that had been published by the FBI on September 14th. The FBI did not release photographs until four days after the cited reports, on September 27th.

    The photographs quickly resolved the nonsense about surviving terrorists. According to Bradley, "all of this is attributable to the chaos that prevailed during the first few days following the attack. What we're dealing with are coincidentally identical names." In Saudi Arabia, says Bradley, the names of two of the allegedly surviving attackers, Said al-Ghamdi and Walid al-Shari, are "as common as John Smith in the United States or Great Britain."

    The final explanation is provided by the newspaper Asharq Al-Awsat, one of the sources of Arab News, which in turn serves as a source to the BBC. Mohammed Samman is the name of the reporter who interviewed a man named Said al-Ghamdi in Tunis, only to find that al-Ghamdi was quite horrified to discover his name on the FBI list of assassins.

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,265160,00.html

    Its a very length der spiegel article rubbishing many of the conspiracy's key arguments.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,701 ✭✭✭Diogenes


    So Glad wrote:
    Ditto. Of course, you are going to get a link completely denying that.

    You see. You can look in one site, and get something that will tell you this happened, then you go to another site and they will tell you it didn't. It really depends on who you trust at this point.

    It really is a crazy merry-go-round.

    No it's more like once around the goldfish bowl for the conspiracy theorists.

    So Glad in the past pages you've claimed that

    1) Sniffer dogs were removed from the Twin Towers on the order of Jeb Bush.

    2) 11 of the hijackers are still alive.

    3) Haouf couldn't have flown the plane.

    These were rebutted, countered with arguments, backed up with facts and links.

    What do you do? Do you offer a counter argument with new information to counter the rebuttal? Do you me arse. You wander off and talk about NORAD.

    Its not a merry go round because when the non conspiraloons rebut the points raised you move on to some other part of the the gubivment conspiracy. Take that BBC URL that Waleed al-Shehri is alive and well, thats constantly presented as "proof" , and when it's discredited, do the conspiraloons come up with further proof that al-Shehri is still alive? Do they heck. They drop the point, move on to NORAD, or the impossible angle of Hanjour, and when these are discredited, do they offer rebutal to the arguments raised? No they move on to the pancaking, or the phonecalls, before, after all these points are discredited, they finally come back to something that was laughed out of it thousands of words ago
    So you see for the conspiraloons its more like a trip around the goldfish bowl.

    They don't bring anything new, they just reguritate the same old chesnuts and hope we've forgotten that it was discredited pages ago.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,701 ✭✭✭Diogenes


    I'm just going to repost something to remind some posters to also consider the motivation of the 911 truth movement.


    Tunaman and squaddie et all would like to present the 911 "truth" movement, as valiant knights wielding the sword of truth against the dragon of "gubivment". A digital Woodward and Bernstein, with Youtube and Google video as their deep throat.

    The motives and ideology of the people in the 911 truth movement are never questioned, the reasons they present their argument is rarely explained. Surely if we're going to spend hours laboriously examining the people they claim are behind the conspiracy, how turn of phrases, by the owner of WTC are analysed endlessly, then perhaps we should spend a short while examining the motives of those spreading the conspiracy theories?

    Lyndon LaRouche. Millionaire. Founder of the LaRouchian Movement. Virulent Anti Semitic.
    During the 1970s and 1980s, the LaRouchites built an international network for spying and propaganda, with links to the upper levels of government, business, and organized crime. The LaRouchites traded information with intelligence agencies in the United States, South Africa, East Germany, and elsewhere. Their dirty tricks record included harassment campaigns against the United Auto Workers and the United Steelworkers of America in the 1970s. In 1980, they branded George Bush an agent of the Trilateral Commission to help Ronald Reagan win the Republican presidential nomination, and in 1984, they helped Jesse Helms retain his U.S. Senate seat by gay-baiting his opponent. During the 1980s, the LaRouchites raised an estimated $200 million through legal and illegal fund-raising and fielded thousands of candidates for political office in every region of the country. Seeking the George Wallace vote, the LaRouche candidates usually ran in Democratic primaries.[2]
    In the 1970s, the LaRouchites’ anti-Jewish propaganda was relatively explicit, as in LaRouche’s 1978 article "New Pamphlet to Document Cult Origins of Zionism," which declared that "The B’Nai B’rith today resurrects the tradition of the Jews who demanded the crucifixion of Jesus Christ , the Jews who pleaded with Nero to launch the ´holocaust´ against the Christians."[5] Gradually the LaRouchites developed increasingly sophisticated ways to invoke antisemitic themes while still maintaining deniability.

    The LaRouchites borrowed conspiracist elements from various sources to produce their own Manichean picture of world history. For thousands of years, they argued, the good "humanists" had been locked in a power struggle with a vast conspiracy of evil "oligarchs." In ancient times, the oligarchic conspiracy was centered in Babylon; later it shifted to Venice; in modern times it was centered in Britain’s royal House of Windsor. This narrative evoked standard elements of antisemitic doctrine: that Jews had dominated ancient Babylon and that Jewish banking families controlled the British government. Sometimes the LaRouchites highlighted prominent Jews as members of the conspiracy, such as "[Henry] Kissinger ’s friends, the Rothschild family, and other representatives of Britain’s financial power." At other times, they portrayed Jews as unwitting tools of the oligarchs, as for example, "Zionism is that state of collective psychosis through which London manipulates most of international Jewry."[6]

    Both quotes from here
    http://www.publiceye.org/larouche/synthesis.html

    Here's an interesting book about LaRouche;

    Lyndon Larouche and the new american fascism"
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/038...lance&n=283155

    The LaRouchian Movement is often described as a cult
    http://www.rickross.com/groups/larouche.html


    And from the Observer.
    In the days before his death, the gifted student from Golders Green, north-west London, had become involved with the Wiesbaden-based followers of Lyndon LaRouche, an American millionaire with virulent anti-Semitic views. An internal Scotland Yard report describes the German group as possessing 'sinister [and] dangerous connections'.

    Unaware of the group's anti-Semitic leanings, the former pupil of Christ's Hospital school told followers that he was Jewish. At 4.20am on 27 March 2003 Duggan rang his mother and told her he was 'under too much pressure'. Minutes later he rang back, his voice hushed and nervous. 'Mum, I am in deep trouble,' he said.

    Asked where he was, Duggan began spelling out Wiesbaden. Before he could reach 'b' the phone went dead. Three hours later police were called to investigate reports of a body on the B455 outside Wiesbaden. The authorities quickly pronounced Duggan's death as a 'clear case' of suicide. It is a verdict which Canning believes must now be questioned.
    Concerns also surround claims by German investigators that a deep dent on the front right hand door of the Peugeot marked the spot where Duggan struck the vehicle. Canning believes such an indentation is unlikely to have been made by a human.

    He said: 'In my opinion, this dent is more likely to have been caused by contact from a heavy instrument, or even another vehicle. I do not believe that the damage to either vehicle was caused by the impact of Jerry's body.' Inexplicably, both cars were moved before Berg photographed the scene.

    http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_ne...874252,00.html

    Fun guy and a fun bunch of people.

    Now I hear Tunaman and Squaddie getting all indignant. "What’s this guy and these guys got to do with teh conspiracy?". Webster Tarpley, is the answer. Did either of you go to Tarpley's talk in Doyles on Friday? Webster was speaking at the invite of the 911truth.ie group. Tarpley, for the uninformed, is a senior member of the the 9/11 truth movement and has written several books on the subject. Tarpley, also is/was an active leading member of Larouche's organisation / cult for at least 20 years, including standing (and being debarred) for Larouche in democratic party primaries, being leader of Larouche's "Schiller Institute" and hosting his radio show for 5 years.

    Onto David Shayler, David leader of the UK 9/11 truth movement,
    http://www.newstatesman.com/200609110028
    "There is a Zionist conspiracy; that's a fact. And they were behind 9/11."
    Now David offers no evidence for this fact, (any more than he offers any more evidence for holographic planes), but it's clear at least several senior members of the 9/11 truth movement has an ulterior motive and agenda. And keep this is mind, this from earlier;
    Gradually the LaRouchites developed increasingly sophisticated ways to invoke antisemitic themes while still maintaining deniability.
    Remember those early rumours about "No Jews" came to work in the twin towers on 9/11? The arguments about the theories have been revised and polished, and improved upon since that simple lie.

    Hitler blamed the Jews for the burning of the Reichstag, and a late 19th conspiracy theory fueled his anti Semitism, "the protocols of the Elders of Zion". Considered the blueprint of modern conspiracy theories.

    Now I'm certainly not claiming that anyone posting conspiracy theories on this thread is anti Semitic. However I suggest that before you watch or read any of these theories that you examine the underlying ideology, and politics of the person telling you the theory. Do they have an ulterior motive? A deeper political philosophy that they are ,underhandedly, trying to sell? Because once their motives are suspect, you must then question their portrayal of the "facts".

    A Final thought. Something else I read at the weekend;

    "A conspiracy theorist is someone who believes nothing he reads in the paper, and everything he reads* on the internet".


    *Or watches, as would be the case with several posters on this thread


    Sorry for the repost but I think it's worth exploring the motivation of the leaders of the conspiracy theories


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,005 ✭✭✭MeatProduct


    Hello Diogenes,

    Thank you for the information. What I find happening with myself is that I'm more interested in reading information about a conspiracy than the official line hence I rarely go and read up about the official story. This is probably the result of not being entirely satisified with human nature in its present form and has made me cynical about government and those in positions of great power.

    Of course my views can only be a natural progression of my life's experience and, as is often the case, no amount of persuasion from someone else with a contradictory life view will alter my views in a meaningful way unless I have a great respect for that person or have some life-changing experience.

    I do believe it's best that we respect eachothers' views as not doing so has brought us to where we are today, i.e. an incredibly unnecessary amount of suffering.

    From observing myself I can tell you that I am interested in the 911 conspiracies and the like when I am not happy with myself and where I am in life. However, when I am centered and reasonably at peace with myself I have no interest in it/them as it's not important in any meaningful way, it's really not. You can assess my current state by my posting in this thread :)

    Respect to all the posters here :)

    Nick


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,472 ✭✭✭So Glad


    This is a new video.
    By far the best compilation of evidence I have ever seen. Has lots of new clips and evidence, some not even www.911myths.can solve.

    Really, I kid you not.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,701 ✭✭✭Diogenes


    And now for something completely different*;
    Hello Diogenes,
    Thank you for the information. What I find happening with myself is that I'm more interested in reading information about a conspiracy than the official line hence I rarely go and read up about the official story. This is probably the result of not being entirely satisified with human nature in its present form and has made me cynical about government and those in positions of great power.

    Of course my views can only be a natural progression of my life's experience and, as is often the case, no amount of persuasion from someone else with a contradictory life view will alter my views in a meaningful way unless I have a great respect for that person or have some life-changing experience.

    I do believe it's best that we respect eachothers' views as not doing so has brought us to where we are today, i.e. an incredibly unnecessary amount of suffering.

    From observing myself I can tell you that I am interested in the 911 conspiracies and the like when I am not happy with myself and where I am in life. However, when I am centered and reasonably at peace with myself I have no interest in it/them as it's not important in any meaningful way, it's really not. You can assess my current state by my posting in this thread :)

    Respect to all the posters here :)

    Nick







    *by different I mean incoherant pointless and juvenile.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,472 ✭✭✭So Glad


    What the hell is wrong with you? Leave him alone. He was just trying to bring back positivity.

    Anyways, before you disect and respond to this post, why don't you look at that new video. I promise you will find the new bomb evidence amazing. The charges used in normal demolition are tiny.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,811 ✭✭✭✭billy the squid


    Diogenes wrote:
    And now for something completely different*;








    *by different I mean incoherant pointless and juvenile.

    Diogenes Tone it down or i will ban you, and by ban I mean lock you out of the forum for seven days, or 168 hours.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,701 ✭✭✭Diogenes


    So Glad wrote:
    This is a new video.
    By far the best compilation of evidence I have ever seen. Has lots of new clips and evidence, some not even www.911myths.can solve.

    Really, I kid you not.

    Rather than demand I waste an hour and half of my life watching yet another bloody internet video could you summerise the points that the 911myth.com cannot rebut.

    I mean you been made aware of the 911myths site for like a day and half now right? Which means you've looked at the site completely, then watched the video, and realised which points it's raised that the 911myths site doesn't cover.

    So instead of forcing us to endure yet another poxy video summerise the points that the 911myths don't cover and cannot solve.

    Meatproduct I apologise, but I suggest if you're unhappy with your life there are better and more productive ways of spending your time, I'm off to take my dogs for walk. Do something, get some excerise, don't waste your life swallowing gullible nonsense.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,701 ✭✭✭Diogenes


    So Glad wrote:
    What the hell is wrong with you? Leave him alone. He was just trying to bring back positivity.

    Anyways, before you disect and respond to this post, why don't you look at that new video. I promise you will find the new bomb evidence amazing. The charges used in normal demolition are tiny.

    Tiny? How tiny? How many are required?

    Would you care to guest how long it takes for a professional demolition company to wire a building to implode?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,057 ✭✭✭civdef


    Technically speaking, buildings being demolished don't implode, they fall down (usually where the demo people want them to). The demolition charges are just a way of weakening structural elements in such a way that the building's own weight brings it down. Explosives or cutting charges aren't the only way to achieve this, you could just start sawing away at colums and beams until the building came down around you (kinda hard on the workers), A (slightly) less dangerous method was to brace structural elements with timber, then remove or weaken the original elements leaving only the timber holding things up. A fire would be then lit and the workers would retire to a safe distance to watch things progress.

    The advantages explosives bring to demolition is their controllability and relative predictability.

    What's my point? Explosive demolition doesn't "blow the building up", or "in" for that matter, it's a large scale example of kicking a stool out from under someone. Fire achieves this just as well, though somewhat less tidily and predictably. If fire weakens an element, the building will come down just as definitely as if cutting charges were used.

    By the way, explosive demolition also involves intensive traditional cutting away of structural elements to weaken the structure beforehand, which is done with petrol saws and gas torches - people tend to notice this sort of work. If you didn't do this first you would have a much less predictable result, and would need literally thousands of charges for a large building, with hundreds of miles of det cord and control wires. Again, hard to miss.

    But still people try and say demolition is more plausible than accepting that a fire could make a building fall down.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 82 ✭✭kahlua




  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,472 ✭✭✭So Glad


    civdef wrote:
    By the way, explosive demolition also involves intensive traditional cutting away of structural elements to weaken the structure beforehand, which is done with petrol saws and gas torches - people tend to notice this sort of work. If you didn't do this first you would have a much less predictable result, and would need literally thousands of charges for a large building, with hundreds of miles of det cord and control wires. Again, hard to miss.

    People have noticed this work. During the weeks before 9/11, certain floors of the World Trade Centers were completely stripped of everything. Furniture, walls etc. These floors were entirely baron and were restricted access.

    Of course, the website I am going to show you has links to newsfeeds clarifying these accusations so I hope you will have sufficient back up concerning this. So, how could bombs be planted?.

    You will no doubt consult www.911myths.com for reason to discredit this and label it all lies, each and every one. So lets compare.

    This news report indicated that indeed security was ceased and bomb sniffing dogs were removed prior 9/11, and I quote:
    AMnewyork wrote:
    The World Trade Center was destroyed just days after a heightened security alert was lifted at the landmark 110-story towers, security personnel said yesterday.

    Daria Coard, 37, a guard at Tower One, said the security detail had been working 12-hour shifts for the past two weeks because of numerous phone threats. But on Thursday, bomb-sniffing dogs were abruptly removed.

    From the guards mouth:
    "Today was the first day there was not the extra security," Coard said. "We were protecting below. We had the ground covered. We didn't figure they would do it with planes. There is no way anyone could have stopped that."

    So here we have a quote from the best source there is, a security guard. She clearly states that the security that was a clearly insufficient. And as I shall show later on in this post, the guard says that all the security was moved "below" to the basements checking cars (as 911myths confirms).
    "How could they let this happen? They knew this building was a target. Over the past few weeks we'd been evacuated a number of times, which is unusual. I think they had an inkling something was going on."

    Another person clarifying this.
    GW: You've previously stated that on the weekend of September 8 and 9, 2001, there was a "power down" condition in world trade center Tower 2, the South Tower, and that this power down condition meant there was no electrical supply for approximately 36 hours from floor 50 up. Do you know what time the power-down started?

    SF: All systems were shutdown on Saturday morning and the power down condition was in effect from approximately 12 noon on Saturday September 8, 2001.

    GW: When did it end?

    SF: Approximately 2PM on Sunday 9/9.

    GW: How do you know that there was no electricity from floor 50 up, if Fiduciary Trust was on much higher floors -- starting at the 90th floor?

    SF: I can't absolutely verify that there was no power on lower floors ... all I can validate is that we were informed of the power down condition, that we had to take down all systems and then the following day had to bring back up all systems ...

    GW: You've previously stated that you were aware of the power down since you worked in the IT department and had to work with many others that weekend to ensure that all systems were cleanly shutdown beforehand ... and then brought back up afterwards. How many other Fiduciary Trust folks were you working with? Can any of them verify your story?
    SF: All systems were shutdown on Saturday morning and the power down condition was in effect from approximately 12 noon on Saturday September 8, 2001.

    GW: When did it end?

    SF: Approximately 2PM on Sunday 9/9.

    GW: How do you know that there was no electricity from floor 50 up, if Fiduciary Trust was on much higher floors -- starting at the 90th floor?

    SF: I can't absolutely verify that there was no power on lower floors ... all I can validate is that we were informed of the power down condition, that we had to take down all systems and then the following day had to bring back up all systems ...

    GW: You've previously stated that you were aware of the power down since you worked in the IT department and had to work with many others that weekend to ensure that all systems were cleanly shutdown beforehand ... and then brought back up afterwards. How many other Fiduciary Trust folks were you working with? Can any of them verify your story?

    SF: All systems were shutdown on Saturday morning and the power down condition was in effect from approximately 12 noon on Saturday September 8, 2001.


    GW: When did it end?

    SF: Approximately 2PM on Sunday 9/9.

    GW: How do you know that there was no electricity from floor 50 up, if Fiduciary Trust was on much higher floors -- starting at the 90th floor?

    SF: I can't absolutely verify that there was no power on lower floors ... all I can validate is that we were informed of the power down condition, that we had to take down all systems and then the following day had to bring back up all systems ...

    GW: You've previously stated that you were aware of the power down since you worked in the IT department and had to work with many others that weekend to ensure that all systems were cleanly shutdown beforehand ... and then brought back up afterwards. How many other Fiduciary Trust folks were you working with? Can any of them verify your story?

    SF: Many, many people worked on the power down, both from the IT department and from the business, revalidating systems when they were available again. Other people can validate my information. Some people do not remember the circumstances, some people will not revisit that time ... but others acknowledge the power down freely and can validate my information.

    I recommend you read that full interview for a detailed account of this power-outs and construction works. Also, it's funny enough that the construction works were for re-wireing. Which involves the destruction of walls to access cable, and also possibly, core segments. So, a lair?

    Lets consult www.911myths.com.

    First thing 911myths discusses out the black-outs is the lack of people to prove such an event happened. Well, Forbes is a person, and the power-outs concerned the floors surrounding him. Although, I am concerned of the lack of other witnesses to prove this, there are still plenty of witnesses to prove that there was extensive rewireing if not black-outs. Point well taken.

    Bomb sniffing dogs were removed. 911myths states that there were bomb sniffing dogs but they were at the entrance to the carpark, inspecting cars, not the buildings. Thats all. Does not refute the claim of dogs being removed from the buildings. Unless you have something that claims that. 911myths certaintly doesn't.

    911myths, in my opinion, does not provide much prove to refute witness evidence regarding this topic only. Although, 911myths does prove a point about the lack of evidence regarding balck-outs, it does not completely rule out the rewireing of the complex.

    Thats all I'm saying.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,472 ✭✭✭So Glad


    Diogenes wrote:
    Rather than demand I waste an hour and half of my life watching yet another bloody internet video could you summerise the points that the 911myth.com cannot rebut.

    I mean you been made aware of the 911myths site for like a day and half now right? Which means you've looked at the site completely, then watched the video, and realised which points it's raised that the 911myths site doesn't cover.

    So instead of forcing us to endure yet another poxy video summerise the points that the 911myths don't cover and cannot solve.

    Meatproduct I apologise, but I suggest if you're unhappy with your life there are better and more productive ways of spending your time, I'm off to take my dogs for walk. Do something, get some excerise, don't waste your life swallowing gullible nonsense.

    You really are quite an angry person. Maybe you should take your own advise and have a nice walk?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,472 ✭✭✭So Glad


    Wow, anti-911 conspiracy people sure know how to defend themselves.

    911 Bull****

    He said bull**** so many times it must be true.

    Although, Jimmy Walter is an arsehole. They selectively showed the conspiracy theories generated at their infancy that have been wildly concocted. Pitty.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,443 ✭✭✭✭bonkey


    So Glad wrote:
    So lets compare.

    Good idea.
    This news report indicated that indeed security was ceased and bomb sniffing dogs were removed prior 9/11, and I quote:
    This says that extra security was lifted. It says nothing about normal security.
    From the guards mouth:
    She says it was the first day without extra security. She says nothing about normal security.

    So here we have a quote from the best source there is, a security guard. She clearly states that the security that was a clearly insufficient.
    She clearly states that the ground-based security was clearly insufficient to stop planes crashing into the building. A few extra security guards and sniffer dogs wouldn't be likely to change that, don't you agree?
    And as I shall show later on in this post, the guard says that all the security was moved "below" to the basements checking cars (as 911myths confirms).
    Is this unusual behaviour for WTC guards?
    Another person clarifying this.
    What this are they clarifying? They're making a seperate point with nothing in common with anything you've presented thus far.
    I recommend you read that full interview for a detailed account of this power-outs and construction works.
    Why? There's nothing new in Forbes' account. Its been used and abused ever since he gave it, and, as you've guessed it, 911myths has a full page about it.
    So, a lair?
    Do you mean "were they building a lair" or is this a typo and you're asking if he's a liar.

    In the former case, I'd say "huh? What would a lair be fore" and in the latter I'd say that we cannot determine the truth and accuracy of his statements without corroboration and suggest you find some. To date, no-one has managed to do so.
    First thing 911myths discusses out the black-outs is the lack of people to prove such an event happened. Well, Forbes is a person, and the power-outs concerned the floors surrounding him.
    Yes. Forbes is one person. To date, not a single other person has been found to corroborate his story. Not one. Even sites like 911review have dismissed it as "thoroughly implausible".

    911myths point out the lack of corroboration. That someone exists to make the claim is pretty-much necessary for the claim to exist in the first place, so Forbes bein a person isn't terribly convincing here. He can't corroborate his own story, now can he?
    Although, I am concerned of the lack of other witnesses to prove this, there are still plenty of witnesses to prove that there was extensive rewireing if not black-outs. Point well taken.

    Point apparently not well taken. If it was well taken, you wouldn't have posted Forbes evidence because you admit yourself that hte criticisms against it are reaonable. What you would have provided is the evidence that isn't unreasonable that "prove" there was extensive rewiring and blackouts.

    Cause, see, that's the thing. Both the 911myths page and the 911review page both agree that such corroborating witnesses have never been found. That there is no-one who corroborates Forbes' story.
    Bomb sniffing dogs were removed.
    The extra ones were, yes, on the Thursday beforehand. Thats 5 days before the attacks, on September 6th, less anyone not be sure.

    The normal security level was in place as it normally would be expected to be. This included bombs.
    911myths states that there were bomb sniffing dogs but they were at the entrance to the carpark, inspecting cars, not the buildings. Thats all. Does not refute the claim of dogs being removed from the buildings. Unless you have something that claims that. 911myths certaintly doesn't.
    911myths makes clear that was removed was extra security. It had been in place because of a perceived threat. The newspaper article says it was removed "abruptly" but what does this mean? That in one step, security went from heightened to normal? If thas all, then thats not really suspicious. Once you determine the threat is past or not real, you remove the extra security.

    There were dogs remaining as part of the normal security detail, and as you pointed out they were apparently stationed in the car-park area. Now, tell me, if you were bomb-planters pretending to be a rewiring company working in WTC on the weekend prior to 911....where would you park your vans with your materials?

    Would you :

    a) Park on the plaza outside and carry everything through the lobby
    b) Park in the carpark
    c) Park somewhere else entirely and carry everything even further than in a) above.

    To me, obtion b is the obvious one, except for the small problem that we know the car-park security detail used bomb-sniffing dogs even in normal security conditions.
    911myths, in my opinion, does not provide much prove to refute witness evidence regarding this topic only.
    They point out that no-one and nothing has been found to corroborate his story, that there's a lot of presumption about it and that it doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense.
    911review agrees with 911myths.org. This claim is eye-witness speculation at best, and most likely bogus.
    Although, 911myths does prove a point about the lack of evidence regarding balck-outs, it does not completely rule out the rewireing of the complex.

    Thats all I'm saying.
    Clearly thats all you're saying because the only information you provided relevant to this claim is the one piece of evidence where you said 911myths had a fair point in questioning it. Other than that, you've provided a sum total of nothing to back this point up...but rather just claimed that the evidence exists.

    If the evidence exists, why didn't you present it, oinstead of the evidence which you admitted yourself wasn't terribly strong? If you can't present it, are we supposed to just trust you and take you at your word that its good stuff?


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,780 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    So Glad wrote:
    First thing 911myths discusses out the black-outs is the lack of people to prove such an event happened. Well, Forbes is a person, and the power-outs concerned the floors surrounding him. Although, I am concerned of the lack of other witnesses to prove this, there are still plenty of witnesses to prove that there was extensive rewireing if not black-outs.
    Maybe I'm missing something, but the only link on the page you linked that indicates this at all is the interview with Forbes. Who else has claimed this?

    Personally, I think Forbes is a bare-faced liar, but I'm willing to entertain evidence to the contrary.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,472 ✭✭✭So Glad


    oscarBravo wrote:
    Maybe I'm missing something, but the only link on the page you linked that indicates this at all is the interview with Forbes. Who else has claimed this?

    Personally, I think Forbes is a bare-faced liar, but I'm willing to entertain evidence to the contrary.

    Possibly true, since there are no other witnesses. I don't deny that. But please, read or scroll down to the bottom to find out why there are a lack of witnesses.
    Bonkey wrote:
    "Do you mean "were they building a lair" or is this a typo and you're asking if he's a liar."

    Yes, sorry, that was a typo. I did mean liar, not lair.
    Bonkey wrote:
    "Now, tell me, if you were bomb-planters pretending to be a rewiring company working in WTC on the weekend prior to 911....where would you park your vans with your materials?"

    Indeed, good point. I cannot directly give you evidence on how it is possible, all I can do is speculate. Would the builders really need to go to the basement? Why not park from the building and walk through the lobby, since there seems to be no bomb-sniffing dogs there. I also can't see construction workers becoming a visual terrorist threat. Wouldn't they not blend in with the usual characters of New York? Policemen, firemen etc. Since 911myths only indicates ONE dog on duty for both building, I would expect big holes in the security where anyone can pass through.
    Bonkey wrote:
    "Is this unusual behaviour for WTC guards?"

    I'd say so, the text describes that there was one dog doing a shift, not others checking other floors. 911myths then goes-a-guessing saying:
    911myths wrote:
    "Presumably there would have been at least one other dog in tower one, perhaps others working different shifts. It looks like these at least were fixed and not wandering the building, but this would still pose a problem for vehicles bringing explosives. Maybe the WTC wasn't quite so insecure, after all.

    Provides no protection for the upper floors.

    Another point, what was this dog or any normal bomb-sniffing dog actually trained to sniff? Homemade, crude bombs? Like the stuff used from fertilizer that blew up the Oklahoma building? Or, lets say to support my theory, Thermite, demolition grade contained satchel charges or as suggested by the unusually high amounts of sulphur on the steel, Sulfer Thermite (which melts steel even faster than normal thermite.

    Is it possible to conceal such devices? Perhaps cover it's scent?
    Bonkey wrote:
    "This says that extra security was lifted. It says nothing about normal security."

    Given that the World Trade Center if one of the most prominent landmarks and office buildings in America and was a known terrorist threat, wouldn't it not be normal to have EXTRA security anyways? I hear people saying that for the weeks preceding 9/11 there was extra security and then a few days before 911 it was taken away, thus returning it to normal (with one bomb sniffing dog?). Well, that seems odd to me because I believe extra security should always be place in buildings like these. I'd actually love to glace at a security guard roster from 911 and check this out for myself.

    Pitty it was all lost when the buildings came down.
    Bonkey wrote:
    "She clearly states that the ground-based security was clearly insufficient to stop planes crashing into the building. A few extra security guards and sniffer dogs wouldn't be likely to change that, don't you agree?
    "

    I never mentioned guards being able to stop a plane hitting the buildings. Although, to witness it would be like an uncanny episode of Superman where the security personel give Superman a day off by jumping out of the wtc windows and stopping the plane with their baby finger and redirecting them to their origional airport. Somehow, not possible. I was refering to the detection of bombs Bonks.
    Bonkey wrote:
    "What this are they clarifying? They're making a seperate point with nothing in common with anything you've presented thus far. "

    "This", is the accusation of security being taken away from the WTC.
    Bonkey wrote:
    "his claim is eye-witness speculation at best, and most likely bogus."

    So, eyewitness claims are now obsolete? Dang, I thought they were one of the vital components to prove something happened. Since we obviously have no tapes to prove workers entered the building I thought that would be second best?

    Although I agree that witness testimony on that day was widely varied and most of it was derived from the chaos of the moment, this was realised with hindsight.

    Another point that I just thought up now regarding why there are such a small number of witnesses to claim building works had taken place is because, well, you see..........they are kinda dead...........sorry.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,701 ✭✭✭Diogenes


    Firstly So Glad I suggest you read posts more carefully
    So Glad wrote:

    You really are quite an angry person. Maybe you should take your own advise and have a nice walk?

    Er;
    Diogenes wrote:
    Meatproduct I apologise, but I suggest if you're unhappy with your life there are better and more productive ways of spending your time, I'm off to take my dogs for walk. Do something, get some excerise, don't waste your life swallowing gullible nonsense.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,472 ✭✭✭So Glad


    Diogenes wrote:
    Firstly So Glad I suggest you read posts more carefully



    Er;

    I apologize.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,443 ✭✭✭✭bonkey


    So Glad wrote:
    Indeed, good point. I cannot directly give you evidence on how it is possible, all I can do is speculate.

    OK. But lets look at this a sec. You present evidence about the lack of security, and astory about rewiring.

    The very evidence you reference actually indicates that there was a normal level of security. Where was this security? Right where you'd expect these allegedly-suspicious to be transporting their materials into the building. And what did this security have? A bomb-sniffing dog.

    We can speculate all we like, but lets admit up front....this is idle speculation based on the assumption that if something happened, and if these items are related, then this might show partially how they are related, although it raises more questions than it answers.
    Would the builders really need to go to the basement?
    Yes. Where else would the park?
    Why not park from the building and walk through the lobby, since there seems to be no bomb-sniffing dogs there.
    Lets assume for one sec that Forbes is telling the truth and the entire building was being rewired over the weekend. Lets assume its not suspicious either.

    How many miles of cable do you think would be required? YOu think some guy is just gonna walk through the lobby with a couple of dozen yards of the stuff....a few thousand times over the weekend?

    Seriously...its a crazy enough idea that it would need corroborating evidence...like people outside the WTC noticing a massive amount of equipment coming through the lobby. Or people coming as tourists to the viewing deck.

    Now, if we assume it was bombers and not recablers, then as well as all the cabling they'd need, they'd also need all the alleged explosives. How much would they need, and how large that would be....I can't say. What I can say is that all estimates I've seen for amterials like RDX or thermite go into the tens of thousands of pounds weight. Carried through the lobby from some unknown park-place?????

    Even as speculation this idea is massively unlikely to the point that you'd have to ask for corroborating evidence to believe any of it.
    I also can't see construction workers becoming a visual terrorist threat.
    Wouldn't they not blend in with the usual characters of New York? Policemen, firemen etc.
    If no-one was seen....they were there. If they were seen....they were there.

    Or, put a different way, the lack of evidence is now evidence, apparently.
    Since 911myths only indicates ONE dog on duty for both building, I would expect big holes in the security where anyone can pass through.
    Speculation.

    You're assuming that people doing rewiring existed based on uncorroborated evidence. You've presented nothing about how many people, how much stuff they needed, or how they could do the job itself once they had access to the building.

    You've argued that there was no security, then accepted there was, and now argue that, well, even though you don't know that much detail about the security, it can't have been perfect so it might be possible for something to have slipped through.
    I'd say so, the text describes that there was one dog doing a shift, not others checking other floors. 911myths then goes-a-guessing
    Your own assessment is "I'd say so" - which is a guess.

    You can't show that the security over the weekend of the 8th and 9th was one jot different to the standard level of security there, nor do you know the details of what that normal level of security entailed.

    So at best, what you're saying is that neither you nor 911 are providing an argument based on fact. I'm quite happy to accept that both of you are engaging in such idle speculation.
    Provides no protection for the upper floors.
    How does one bring a threat to the upper floors?

    - By flying there
    - By carrying it up from the lower floors.

    So....security on the lower floors / points of entrance equates to security on the upper floors from everything which isn't flying.
    Another point, what was this dog or any normal bomb-sniffing dog actually trained to sniff?
    Why don't you find out and let us know? Then you can rule out all of those explosives from your speculation and still have plenty left.

    Come on...seriously....you start with "evidence" that there wasn't any bomb-sniffing dogs. Now you're asking us to consider that although you were wrong, and there were bomb-sniffing dogs, the real questions are what type of bombs they could sniff, why they didn't check the upper floors, that they couldn't be everywhere at once, and so on.
    Like the stuff used from fertilizer that blew up the Oklahoma building?
    Or like the stuff used to try and blow up the WTC when it was attacked in '93, by exploding a 1500lb nitrate-fuel mixture in the underground car-park, and which was the reason they added bomb-sniffing dogs to the WTC security?

    Y'know...you could be on to something there. Maybe it never occured to them to check for home-made bombs when home-made bombs were what made them put the dogs there in the first place.
    Or, lets say to support my theory, Thermite, demolition grade contained satchel charges or as suggested by the unusually high amounts of sulphur on the steel, Sulfer Thermite (which melts steel even faster than normal thermite.
    Demolition-grade thermite? Demolition grade thermite? I trust you're not just making up and throwing about terms here, but I've never heard of thermite even being used in a demolition (other than in the WTC allegations), and have singularly failed to find any reference to there being thermite which is specifically graded for demolition.

    Can you provide any more info on this?
    Is it possible to conceal such devices? Perhaps cover it's scent?
    Why are you asking me? This is your theory. If you don't know the asnwers, it means you don't know how plausible your theory is.
    Given that the World Trade Center if one of the most prominent landmarks and office buildings in America and was a known terrorist threat, wouldn't it not be normal to have EXTRA security anyways?
    No, because then it would be normal security as it would be what they normally had.

    As an example of this: The bomb-sniffing capability that was part of normal security was added as an extra measure following the events of 93, but was added on a permanent basis and thus became part of the normal security

    So either htey had extra security on an ongoing basis for exactly teh reasons you describe, or the reasons you describe aren't grounds for what would be termed extra security.
    Well, that seems odd to me because I believe extra security should always be place in buildings like these.
    I've just addressed this. Either it was there, or the notion of "extra" doesn't gel with the notion of "always". Take your pick, but either way you're wrong.

    You can argue all you like that the security levels were insufficient, but then you'd actually have to be doing more than speculating about the existence of explosives, beacause, well, its the only known case where there's even the speculation that something got past the security.
    I'd actually love to glace at a security guard roster from 911 and check this out for myself.
    Pitty it was all lost when the buildings came down.
    Jeez man....a post or two ago, you wanted us to take a security guard at their word. Now you want us to believe she's not to be trusted.

    The only apparent difference is that I've shown how her testimony detracts from your argument rather than supporting it like you thought.
    I never mentioned guards being able to stop a plane hitting the buildings.
    Its clearly what she was referring to about not being able to prevent.

    You were trying to use her statement to bolster the notion that the security was insufficient. The only way her statement does that is if increased security could have prevented what she herself said they couldn't have prevented.
    I was refering to the detection of bombs Bonks.
    But her statement doesn't support the notion that they had insufficient resources to do that. It does support the notion that security levels were reduced the previous Thursday, but I've never questioned that.
    "This", is the accusation of security being taken away from the WTC.
    Of which there's no question. Its a matter of record. Security was increased due to a known threat. We know the threat response involved the test evacuations referenced and also increased security levels. We know the threat was declared to be past, the evactuation drills stopped, and the extra security reduced back to normal levels.

    Please note - we do not know the nature of the threat that I am aware of. What we do know is that the response was typical of a force maximising the efficacity of limited resources.

    We know that 5 days later, planes smacked into the towers and that one security guard pointed out that there is no way anyone could have stopped that whilst acknowledging the return-to-normal-security occurred some days previously. To me, its fairly clear that she's saying the reduction-to-normal didn't make a jot of a difference. And you did say she's the best source there is.

    So on what basis do we conclude that on September 8th and 9th (the weekend), or on the 11th itself, that security was insufficient. We don't. We just have speculation that says it might have been.
    So, eyewitness claims are now obsolete?
    Dang, I thought they were one of the vital components to prove something happened.
    You're wrong. Unverified eye-witness accounts are one of the least-useable components to proving something happened.

    Verified eye-witness accounts are immensely useful because they supply an additional level of validation to the other evidence which agrees with them.

    Forbes was aware of a blackout on some floors. He speculated about other floors, saw nothing untoward, didn't see that many people, and his statements have apparently not been successfully validated by anyone. THey also raise an amount of questions which Forbes himself cannot answer.

    As an alleged eye-witness, his testimony is - at best - useless.
    Since we obviously have no tapes to prove workers entered the building I thought that would be second best?
    Why don't we have tapes? The security cameras in WTC were on a seperate power supply to the building. They should not have been deactivated by any power-down.

    More importantly, why do we have no-one to corroborate poor Scott's story?

    More importantly again...just how much explosive would htey have had to haul up how many floors? If we're to believe the power-down story, the lifts and lift-doors weren't running, were they. So everything was toted by hand, up and down stairwells. In a weekend. Invisibly.
    Another point that I just thought up now regarding why there are such a small number of witnesses to claim building works had taken place is because, well, you see..........they are kinda dead...........sorry.
    Ah right. So of the fewer than 3,000 victims, every single person who knew of the south tower power down was killed except Scott.

    Because lets be clear about this....its not a small number of witnesses we're talking about here. So far, its one alleged witness and no other evidence. You've said that there's more evidence and more witnesses, but you haven't given us anything on them. You've also said they're dead, which is why they can't tell us anything.

    So again, it seems that its a case of arguing from the evidence == proof, no evidence == proof perspective. If you think thats a good way to proceed....please....don't let me stop you, but don't ask me to think you're mounting a plausible argument.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,472 ✭✭✭So Glad


    Scott Forbes did not say that the WHOLE of the building was being rewired, he said that certain floors were.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,701 ✭✭✭Diogenes


    So Glad wrote:
    Possibly true, since there are no other witnesses. I don't deny that. But please, read or scroll down to the bottom to find out why there are a lack of witnesses.

    We'll come to this a bit.
    Indeed, good point. I cannot directly give you evidence on how it is possible, all I can do is speculate. Would the builders really need to go to the basement? Why not park from the building and walk through the lobby, since there seems to be no bomb-sniffing dogs there. I also can't see construction workers becoming a visual terrorist threat. Wouldn't they not blend in with the usual characters of New York? Policemen, firemen etc. Since 911myths only indicates ONE dog on duty for both building, I would expect big holes in the security where anyone can pass through.

    So what they walked through the lobby carrying tonnes of explosives? And wired the building with the four days and nights that there was only one sniffer dog on duty?

    Do you know how long it takes a professional demolition crew to wire a 30 store building?

    Another point, what was this dog or any normal bomb-sniffing dog actually trained to sniff? Homemade, crude bombs? Like the stuff used from fertilizer that blew up the Oklahoma building? Or, lets say to support my theory, Thermite, demolition grade contained satchel charges or as suggested by the unusually high amounts of sulphur on the steel, Sulfer Thermite (which melts steel even faster than normal thermite.

    Trainer 1 Hey lets not bother training them to detect some explosives they'll never be used in a terrorist attack.
    Is it possible to conceal such devices? Perhaps cover it's scent?

    You're reduced to wildly clutching at straws to support your theory.
    Given that the World Trade Center if one of the most prominent landmarks and office buildings in America and was a known terrorist threat, wouldn't it not be normal to have EXTRA security anyways?

    Do you understand the meaning of the word "extra"? Extra mean above the ordinary.Surely you mean that the security was too light?
    I hear people saying that for the weeks preceding 9/11 there was extra security and then a few days before 911 it was taken away, thus returning it to normal (with one bomb sniffing dog?). Well, that seems odd to me because I believe extra security should always be place in buildings like these. I'd actually love to glace at a security guard roster from 911 and check this out for myself.

    Pitty it was all lost when the buildings came down.



    I never mentioned guards being able to stop a plane hitting the buildings. Although, to witness it would be like an uncanny episode of Superman where the security personel give Superman a day off by jumping out of the wtc windows and stopping the plane with their baby finger and redirecting them to their origional airport. Somehow, not possible. I was refering to the detection of bombs Bonks.

    Bombs you've been unable to prove existed. You don't need extra security for that you need exgistentialists.
    "This", is the accusation of security being taken away from the WTC.

    Not taken away, reduced to normal.
    So, eyewitness claims are now obsolete? Dang, I thought they were one of the vital components to prove something happened. Since we obviously have no tapes to prove workers entered the building I thought that would be second best?

    Uncoberated accounts that don't match with the general concensus are not helped.
    Another point that I just thought up now regarding why there are such a small number of witnesses to claim building works had taken place is because, well, you see..........they are kinda dead...........sorry.

    :rolleyes:

    There were 10,000 people who worked in the twin towers. The Attack killed less than a third. Are you trying to suggest that somehow the the few thousand people killed, were the only ones capable of confirming Forbes story. Dang how'd the gubiment manage to ensure everyone working the weekend before the attack was there on the day. Dang gubiment them real smart.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,443 ✭✭✭✭bonkey


    So Glad wrote:
    Scott Forbes did not say that the WHOLE of the building was being rewired, he said that certain floors were.

    That's correct. He said everything above maybe floor 50 on one building was gonna be powerless for 36 hours because of some rewiring job.

    So where were the explosives planted in your speculative interpretation of this tidbit? Were they in one half of one building? Were they only on some floors of one half of one building? Were they in many floors of both buildings, placed there under the cover of someone supposedly doing work in one half of one building?

    Its your idea. I can't make these decisions. You tell me what you think happened and I'll tell you the flaws in your idea. But if all you have is some notion that all of this adds up to something fishy, but you don't know how any of its fits together, then you don't really have anything.

    We both agree that Forbes' story sounds a bit fishy. I accept we think its fishy for diametrically opposed reasons, but there's definitely something there. What he's describing, coupled with the complete lack of verification is a wee bit odd, to say the least.

    My approach is to ask for more verification and the first steps in that would be to get corroboration - either from the workmates he says survived the crash and who can do so, or any other source. 5 years on, and this has never been done. Even the guy himself, who has apparently tried to contact teh Comission and has gone on record with this stuff didn't think of as much as getting a single workmate to sign a statement saying they could corroborate a power-outage or anything.

    In the absence of corroboration, this is a non-event. Whether it happened or not cannot be determined, and if it did happen, we don't know any of the details about what "it" was. We've got some dimly-remembered fragments, some speculation, and some gut-feeling stuff.

    What we don't have, is anything approaching an explanation for how these guys could have been up to anything sinister, even if the events that Foley describes are entirely accurate.

    Some floors in one building without power == thermite rigged throughout the structure of both buildings, all done in 36 hours with no trace left behind? Seriously?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,472 ✭✭✭So Glad


    I have tried to search for more witnesses regarding this but unfortunately the internet is flooding with his story and google show up loads of pages regarding him only.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,701 ✭✭✭Diogenes


    So Glad wrote:
    I have tried to search for more witnesses regarding this but unfortunately the internet is flooding with his story and google show up loads of pages regarding him only.

    Hmmm okay you see the problem there right? If there was corroborative testimony then it wouldn't be "his" story it'd be the story of several eyewitnesses, it would be "Scott Forbes came forward and several people confirmed this" Which I assure you would upsurpe "his" story in google.

    Again in laymans terms, if several people testified to the south tower being "powered down" it would be more than "Scott Forbes" story. The fact that you cannot find any evidence aside from Scott Forbes testimony means that it just that, a "story" told by Scott Forbes.

    So what's next?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,701 ✭✭✭Diogenes


    Also before you decide it was thermite would you care to reconsider? Thermite isn't an explosive technically. It burns through metal at a moderately slow speed. it requires a fuse of magnesium, which cannot be trigger by a standard charge used by demolition experts (electirical charge into something like C4 or dynamite) it needs a controlled heat source that (back to junior cert science) runs at 2500 kelvin. Oh and
    his method is notoriously unreliable: magnesium itself is hard to ignite, and in windy or wet conditions the strip may be extinguished. Also, magnesium strips do not contain their own oxygen source so ignition cannot occur through a small hole. A significant danger of magnesium ignition is the fact that the metal is an excellent conductor of heat; heating one end of the ribbon may cause the other end to transfer enough heat to the thermite to cause premature ignition. Despite these issues, magnesium ignition remains popular amongst amateur thermite users.

    So the standard ignition tool is only used by amatuers. And is unrelibly. Not really what you want when you're about to commit the greatest conspiracy on the history of the planet now is it?
    The reaction between potassium permanganate and glycerine is used as an alternative to the magnesium method. When these two substances mix, a spontaneous reaction will begin, slowly increasing the temperature of the mixture until flames are produced. The heat released by the oxidation of glycerine is sufficient to initiate a thermite reaction. However, this method can also be unreliable and the delay between mixing and ignition can vary greatly due to factors such as particle size and ambient temperature.
    Another method of igniting is to use a common sparkler to ignite the mix. These reach the necessary temperatures and provide a sufficient amount of time before the burning point reaches the sample.
    [edit]

    Little better isn't it? Of course considering the incredible exact timing the "bombers" needed means that they were taking an awful gamble with termite weren't they?

    Oh and theres more.
    Civilian uses



    Thermite reaction proceeding for a railway welding. Shortly after this, the liquid iron flows into the mold around the rail gap.


    The violent effects of thermite demonstrated in the Utah desert
    Thermite reactions have many uses. Thermite was originally used for repair welding in-place such things as locomotive axle-frames where the repair can take place without removing the part from its installed location. It can also be used for quickly cutting or welding metal such as rail tracks, without requiring complex or heavy equipment.
    A thermite reaction, when used to purify the ores of some metals, is called the Thermite process. An adaptation of the reaction, used to obtain pure uranium, was developed as part of the Manhattan Project at Ames Laboratory under the direction of Frank Spedding. It is sometimes called the Ames process.
    When thermite is made using iron (III) oxide, for maximum efficiency it should contain, by mass, 25.3% aluminum and 74.7% iron oxide. (This mixture is sold under the brand name Thermit as a heat source for welding.) The complete formula for the reaction using iron (III) oxide is as follows:
    Fe2O3(s) + 2Al(s) ? Al2O3(s) + 2Fe(s); ?H = -851.5 kJ/mol
    When thermite is made using iron (II,III) oxide, for maximum efficiency it should contain, by mass, 23.7% aluminium and 76.3% iron oxide. The formula for the reaction using iron (II,III) oxide:
    3Fe3O4(s) + 8Al(s) ? 4Al2O3(s) + 9Fe(s); ?H = -3347.6 kJ/mol
    The reaction using Fe3O4 produces a substantially larger amount of energy pr. mol reaction than the reaction using Fe2O3, which produces more energy pr. gram of thermite mixture.
    Thermite should not be confused with a thermal lance.
    [edit]
    Military uses

    Thermite grenades are used as incendiary devices to quickly destroy items or equipment when there is imminent danger of them being captured by enemy forces. Because of the difficulty in igniting standard iron-thermite, plus the fact that it burns with practically no flame and has a small radius of action, standard thermite is rarely used on its own as an incendiary composition. It is more usually employed with other ingredients added to enhance its incendiary effects. Thermate-TH3 is a mixture of thermite and pyrotechnic additives which have been found to be superior to standard thermite for incendiary purposes. Its composition by weight is generally thermite 68.7%, barium nitrate 29.0%, sulphur 2.0% and binder 0.3%. Addition of barium nitrate to thermite increases its thermal effect, creates flame in burning and significantly reduces the ignition temperature. Although the primary purpose of Thermate-TH3 is as an incendiary, it will also weld metal surfaces together.
    A classic military use for Thermite is disabling artillery pieces. Thermite can be used to permanently disable artillery pieces without the use of explosive charges and therefore operate with a reasonable amount of stealth. The 2nd Ranger Battalion used Thermite grenades against the Nazi artillery at Pointe du Hoc during the Allied invasion of Normandy. There are several ways to do this. One method is to weld the breach of the weapon closed by inserting an armed thermite grenade into it and then quickly closing the breech. This makes the weapon impossible to load. An alternative method is to insert an armed thermite grenade down the muzzle of the artillery piece, fouling the barrel. This makes the piece very dangerous to fire. Yet another method is to use Thermite to destroy the traversing and elevation mechanism on the cannon, making it impossible to properly aim the gun..
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    I hate to be pedantic but theres no mention of the word "demolition" in there. Never mind "demoliton grade"

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermite#Civilian_uses

    As someone who aged 15 had access to the Anarchist cookbook and a docile chemistry teacher who gave me a set of keys to the lab one afternoon, I stole the ingredients to make thermite (and some kick ass smoke bombs). It isn't an explosive its a aluminothermic reaction, for a start. And a moderately slow moving one at that. To use that to make the quick "pancake fall" of the twin towers?. To quote Ricky Gervais, "you're having a laugh"


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