Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

UTV Clicksilver (BB) details for the Republic

1235

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 856 ✭✭✭andrew163


    uhhhh i know im gonna get at least 5 or 6 replies about rose coloured glasses for saying this but....


    well done utv for doing everything in your power to give us the best you can........

    we need more companies like you.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,472 ✭✭✭echomadman


    Riddle me this netsourcer's and nay-sayers

    you complain about the cap, fair enough, but its been mathematically explained that at full capacity, theoretically you cannot physically exceed the 5 gb UTV are suggesting.
    You post about bad pings?
    Guess what its because you reserve your seemingly god given right to download incessantly,

    I wonder why Netsource didnt impose a cap.
    a: they didnt expect to be hammered so badly by the "linux ISO" crew
    b: they knew no-one would really be able to exceed it given the current spec of the product.

    Sloth you are not on RADSL, so your comments are really just adding fuel to an unneccesary fire.

    those of you who are straight up gamers, i understand your point about the risk of exceeding your cap, but compare and contrast to the cost of doing all this on dial up and isdn.
    maybe an uncapped offering isnt suitable for you though.
    as it stands at the moment unless you live in select areas, you cant have "cheap" uncapped D/Ls and amazing pings

    This is a first step into widely accesible BB in ireland, Its not on a par with other countries, yet, but its a start.
    The focus of this Forum and IOFFL itself is to heighten awareness.
    As more and more prople take up BB, they will become aware of its current limitations, and will demand more. Adding impetus to the "movement" :D
    one step at a time, people were asking where IOFFL will go now, this fight is only starting, (to use a little melodramatic license)

    I'm not happy with any of the current offerings, but I too appreciate UTVs relationship with this forum, and their own support thread is friendly and quick to respond to *any* query.
    In this land of begrudgers and brown envelopes, this is worth so much more than anything the other runners in this race have ever offered us.

    For those of you worried about surfing etc, adding to your cap, intstall a cacheing proxy on your machine, or on an older one that you may have lying around.
    Its a lot easier than you may think, and cuts a lot of your total BW usage.
    Block ads, they're annoying and are eating into your allowance&bandwidth like you wouldn't believe..

    anyway, well done UTV, best offer of a bad lot, and i'm sure you will continue to improve the service as circumstance allows:


  • Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 32,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭DeVore


    you complain about the cap, fair enough, but its been mathematically explained that at full capacity, theoretically you cannot physically exceed the 5 gb UTV are suggesting.

    5Gb is 5,000,000K is 40,000,000kbit.


    At 512kbit/sec it will take 78125 seconds to bust it at full speed.
    thats 1302.0833 (recurring) minutes
    or
    21.7013888(recurring) hours. Lets call it 22 hours for brevity.

    Less then one full day at full whack.


    You post about bad pings?
    Guess what its because you reserve your seemingly god given right to download incessantly,


    Someone asking for QoS on latency can also ask for decent d/l speeds. Unless he's d/ling at the time while he's play he isnt affecting his own latency. I dont know anyone who would d/l at the same time as playing if they wanted decent pings.

    DeV.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,472 ✭✭✭echomadman


    5Gb is 5,000,000K is 40,000,000kbit.


    At 512kbit/sec it will take 78125 seconds to bust it at full speed.
    thats 1302.0833 (recurring) minutes
    or
    21.7013888(recurring) hours. Lets call it 22 hours for brevity.

    Less then one full day at full whack.

    I was referring to the unlikely concept of everyone d/l constantly, which is what the ISP is gambling on not happening, at the current contention situation
    Someone asking for QoS on latency can also ask for decent d/l speeds. Unless he's d/ling at the time while he's play he isnt affecting his own latency. I dont know anyone who would d/l at the same time as playing if they wanted decent pings.

    Again , I'm just highlighting, the inherent flaws in the *current* offerings, wher QOS/Badwidth shaping is obviously not taking place
    as i said in the curent situation, serious gamers will most likely find uncapped offerings unsuitable.

    to quotew you from anther thread
    Look two *critical* points.

    1. RADSL Planned Contention happens BEFORE THE DATA EVER GETS TO THE RESELLING ISP... therefore this *entire* conversation is moot because unless the duopoly decide to alter the products they are offering you just have to put up with it (from a resellers pov).

    Do you think that if I could have tweaked options like this I would be talking to Wireless people?

    2. A major major major problem with contention current is that the upstream bandwidth IS THE SAME AS THE BANDWIDTH TO A SINGLE USER.
    therefore a single user can max out the line and start to cause contention.

    Joe Hog jumps on, starts warezing and suddenly everyone is getting crap connection and halving their speeds etc
    so say you finish your game of CS or what ever, then fire up Kazaa and mutate into Joe hog :D you are spoiling it for other users.
    I'm all for QOS,
    I was just trying to address an attitude prevalent in this thread where people wanted it all, right here, right now.
    I would too
    but its not realistic at the moment.
    take whats available and begin the campaign to see it improved


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,501 ✭✭✭Delphi91


    Originally posted by DeVore
    5Gb is 5,000,000K is 40,000,000kbit.


    At 512kbit/sec it will take 78125 seconds to bust it at full speed.
    thats 1302.0833 (recurring) minutes
    or
    21.7013888(recurring) hours. Lets call it 22 hours for brevity.

    Less then one full day at full whack.

    Actually, not wanting to split hairs, but 5GB is (5 x 1024 x 1024 x 1024 x 8)bits which is 42,949,673 kbits.

    At 512kbit/sec (which is 512 x 1024), it will take 81,920 seconds to reach this limit.

    81,920 seconds is 1365.333(recurring) minutes, which is 22.7555(recurring) hours, or 22 hours 45 minutes and 20 seconds.

    All the above comes from having f**k all to do for 10 minutes and handy access to a calculator!

    Mike


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 856 ✭✭✭andrew163


    Originally posted by Delphi91
    Actually, not wanting to split hairs, but 5GB is (5 x 1024 x 1024 x 1024 x 8)bits which is 42,949,673 kbits.

    At 512kbit/sec (which is 512 x 1024), it will take 81,920 seconds to reach this limit.

    81,920 seconds is 1365.333(recurring) minutes, which is 22.7555(recurring) hours, or 22 hours 45 minutes and 20 seconds.

    All the above comes from having f**k all to do for 10 minutes and handy access to a calculator!

    Mike

    *professor frink*
    Muh-hoy!


  • Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 32,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭DeVore


    Ok I understand now what you were getting at with the inability to exceed the cap. I didnt realise you were talking about EVERYONE exceeding the cap simultaneously.

    I dont blame UTV for the possibility of a CAP being enforced. Its being forced on them really by market factors (ie 48:1 contention imho).
    so say you finish your game of CS or what ever, then fire up Kazaa and mutate into Joe hog you are spoiling it for other users.
    I'm all for QOS,
    I was just trying to address an attitude prevalent in this thread where people wanted it all, right here, right now.
    I would too
    but its not realistic at the moment.
    take whats available and begin the campaign to see it improved

    Some men ask "why?" others ask "why not?".


    To be fair to UTV.... this is another laboured and hobbled step in the right direction. Again they are pushing the envelope of what can be achieved within the confines of the wholesale offerings.

    The problem is that we need to step over dead bodies and find a second last-mile. I just dont trust ANYTHING where I have to rely on an incumbent to service me and on whom I would be reliant on for QoS.

    Fair dues to the UTV lads, they are braver then I, for tackling the grumpy giant who doesnt want to play ball. Ever. I've despaired of it and think that the only solution lies in really outside-the-box thinking and a radical rethink of last-mile.


    Onward, ever onward soldiers. :)

    DeV.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 265 ✭✭Nitrox


    Like most others i have been and still will be a happy UTV customer.
    Congrats on getting a "broadband" offer out there, but as long as there is still no real Broadband out there i just don't see the point in shifting just yet!
    In Denmark they are now offering everyone to upgrade to double of what they had and it can go all the way up to 8 Mbit at much less than you would pay for 1 here.
    I do not even want to go into what they got in Sweden and Norway, it is getting crazy there!!
    So i am still waiting for the day when baloons will be floating over Dublin offering all 10 Mbit full duplex for starters, if that does not arrive anytime soon i see no real future for Ireland so like most others i will be leaving.
    Fair play to you all who are happy with the current offers, as long as you know that most of your hard earned money is going in the pockets of the company who will ruin Ireland, yep, that would be Eircon!!


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,067 ✭✭✭tomk


    Originally posted by Nitrox
    .....so like most others i will be leaving.

    Most others? Have you done a survey?


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,819 ✭✭✭rymus


    great to see a new BB product on the market. Now all I have to do is sit patiently and wait 18+ months for Eircom to upgrade my local exchange (if they ever do).


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 674 ✭✭✭Stonemason


    Im glad and sad to see UTV finaly enter the BB market, glad because because they have proved to me at least they care about there customers not only from posting here but in all dealings regarding billing and connection speeds, the fact i never have to dial more than once to conect are prime examples.Sad because they were foolish enough to follow the pack and are now pimping for Eircom.Sorry to repeat myself but if any company that have the broadcasting knowlege that UTV has should have gone wireless and left eircom to wallow in there own crappulence.Dont bitch at UTV because Eircom make it impossible to bring out a cheaper product.


    Question

    If UTV got enough requests from an exchange would they be able to upgrade themselfs or will they have to go cap in hand to Eircom and ask them nicely if they would upgrade the exchange ?.

    I fink i already know the answer to that one :(

    Anyways Good luck UTV :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 293 ✭✭David C


    Originally posted by Stonemason
    Sorry to repeat myself but if any company that have the broadcasting knowlege that UTV has should have gone wireless and left eircom to wallow in there own crappulence.Dont bitch at UTV because Eircom make it impossible to bring out a cheaper product.
    Perhaps UTV would consider such a wireless option still in the future to complement their RADSL service in the more populated centres of the country?
    It's the only real competition threat to Eircom as with wholesale DSL they're still making a bloody packet

    The more wireless & inovative products the better I say!


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,659 ✭✭✭✭dahamsta


    Originally posted by Stonemason
    If UTV got enough requests from an exchange would they be able to upgrade themselfs or will they have to go cap in hand to Eircom and ask them nicely if they would upgrade the exchange ?
    The latter, and Eircom's reaction will be defined by their ongoing relationship with UTVi and UTVi's relationship with Comreg. EsatBT meets regularly with Comreg to review orders and deal with problems, whereas Netsource doesn't. It remains to be seen which pays off though, since both are having problems.

    adam


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 187 ✭✭p2p


    I understand all the points about mathematics of the cap etc
    but .....

    How are netsource able to do it for €54 ex domain with no cap?

    And why cant UTV do it for the same and make up the "loss" by making their telephone package mandatory ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,082 ✭✭✭carbsy


    Originally posted by p2p
    I understand all the points about mathematics of the cap etc
    but .....

    How are netsource able to do it for €54 ex domain with no cap?

    And why cant UTV do it for the same and make up the "loss" by making their telephone package mandatory ?

    DOH! Netsource are obviously making their profit from the domain part , ie most ppl will choose a dot com domain (which costs an average of £18 sterling for 2 years) whilst others won't even choose one.

    carb.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,067 ✭✭✭tomk


    Originally posted by p2p
    How are netsource able to do it for €54 ex domain with no cap?

    Also, there are quite a few who are saying that Netsource are not able to do it:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=100161


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,440 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Originally posted by shinzon
    god i gotta laugh, i think as regards UTV a lot of you have rose coloured glasses and unfortunately wont see the problems until yere signed up for it, this is exactly the same type of responses that happpened when netsource came out, first praise and absolute adoration, then problems started and the backlash began so will say no more now and await the threads to start, and as for the cap itll be enforced cause the warez monkeys will abuse the service as always

    I'd have to agree with alot of the above,
    Only one thing, its a start
    Even if it is Eircoms product repackaged and resold its still a start and its still competion and thats good to!

    The more companys the more choice, and when it comes down to it if all these companys along with IOFFL get together and highlight all the problems then maybe, just maybe things will get better.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭Martin-UTVi


    Perhaps UTV would consider such a wireless option still in the future to complement their RADSL service in the more populated centres of the country?
    We have looked at wireless and done feasibility on various aspects of it....but its very restrictive. Line of sight, weather conditions permitting, limited range etc etc. To cover an area like Dublin or the greater Belfast area you could be looking at 6-12 aerials. This area though is one that is changing rapidly and something we are keeping an eye on (tethered ballons, new non line of sight technologies etc.) The cost of rolling out broadband on a wireless basis is very expensive whilst only covering a limited % of the population. And of course once you have terminated your wireless connection atop a tall mountain/building, who are you going to pay to backhaul it to your POP via fibre....?
    Now all I have to do is sit patiently and wait 18+ months for Eircom to upgrade my local exchange (if they ever do).
    Unless we roll out our own network (hugely expensive, 100's of millions of euros cost) we have to include Eircom in the equation in back hauling the line/data to us. Even Esat who have a fairly large network installed find it cheaper to wholesale the ADSL product from Eircom rather than roll out ADSL on their own (they do have their own ADSL network out there....but its expensive and business only I think). And because we all rely on Eircom, we will all have similar products with similar terms of service.

    Someone had mentioned earlier in this thread that UTV were not an ISP, but partnered with one......don't know where that came from, but UTV Internet (formerly DNA Internet) has been an ISP since 1995 :)

    Contention ratios and caps :rolleyes: I went into this in some detail in an earlier thread relating to some problems that NetSource/Eircom were having. It is absolutely unrealistic to expect a 1:1 contention ratio when surfing on the internet. If everybody with access to the net used it at the same time, it would crawl to a complete halt. The reason contention ratios work so well is that not everybody online is either doing the same thing or downloading all the time. But if a certian % of your users are always saturating their DSL line, then that group of people can have a detrimental effect on other users of the service. Now if a few % of your customer base can affect the quality of your entire service, surely it is just common sense to have something in your terms and conditions that allows an ISP to regulate their usage to the greater benefit of the majority of users?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 219 ✭✭Synkronite


    UTV- may you soar to great heights in the Irish market.

    Which other ISP explains itself, and its own t&cs as clearly and openly as UTV.

    Instead of criticizing what's not in their hands, let's use the energy to battle eircom's continuing abuse of its position in the market. Comreg, take note. Surely they realise that Eircom is dragging its heels in the matter.

    Is Minister Ahern aware of this board?


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,026 ✭✭✭BKtje


    I'm no expert on this (as you'll see from my post) and i do understand that Eircom are expensive as ****...but im still wondering why in Europe they are cheap and have no limits.

    Contention ratios are 48:1? Why dont you just put less people on the lines. Say max it out at 30 (or create another product with higher cost but less contention). Can't you just request from Eircom to only stick 30 people on this particular line as they pay more for their medium-heavy usage.

    1: So you might have one product at 47.50 witha contention at 48:1 with 5 gig cap.

    2: And another product with 24:1 (or sommet) for €80. (or whatever increase in price is needed to cover the costs for the medium-heavy users. Chuck on a 'fair play' agreement on it where you'll be contacted if you go overboard too often by too much.

    3:A gamers one where you have a higher cap (but still one for all the updates etc) but where you attempt to guarantee low pings to places like Jolt.co.uk or wherever. Either by using more expensive routing or whatever. Then stick on a correct price for the better routing (if possible) and the slighlty higher cap. (if this worked, all gamers capable of getting it probably would as long as the price wasn't too high. Thats quite a large amount of ppl imo)

    Wouldnt that work?i dont understand why it has to be 48:1. Eircom said so? Well just request less people put on each and pay for the extra ones for the people who want a better product.

    Basically im asking for Tier'd products. if what im asking is outta the question please explain why. Would LLU the lines for the heavy users be better?

    Seems fairly easy to me but i guess thats why im not in an ISP ;)

    Comments plz, or questions if you dont understand what im getting at.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭Martin-UTVi


    I'm really trying to be polite in answering some of these points, but am in a bit of a hurry....so my answers may be a bit short :)
    Why dont you just put less people on the lines
    Can't - Ericoms limit on their RADSL product. Other DSL flavours may have different ratios but are a lot more expensive - don't forget we are trying to push people towards broadband and hence need an affordable product.
    where you attempt to guarantee low pings to places like Jolt.co.uk or wherever. Either by using more expensive routing or whatever
    Not feasible - not going to go into the full tech details of an ISP's routing, but pings, latency etc are perhaps beyond the scope of this broadband discussion.
    Eircom said so?
    Yes - someone earlier in this thread posted a link to some Eircom pdf docs concerning the tech specs of their RADSL product - go read through those for a better understanding of the limitations in taking the RADSL service.

    Would LLU the lines for the heavy users be better?
    Yes, but a lot more expensive - most of the heavy users in this thread (I'm assuming) are home users who do not want to increase their net usage costs.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,026 ✭✭✭BKtje


    Thanks for reply Martin, appreciated.

    Im still a bit confused over the Contention tho. I understand Eircom Set the ratios on them but surely not every one is gonna be full. Especially at the start. Isn't it possible to just only stick 30 on each so that the bandwidth would be shard between them.
    Is it not feesable? physically possible or Eircom just being asses about it and refusing to put less people on it?
    From your previous reply im assuming its the latter :)

    Anyway, will apply. Doubt ill pass as i didnt pass Eircoms/Netsources RADSL but might as well try :)
    If not ill continue with my plans for ADSL business package from Esat which somehow i can get even tho i failed RADSL.
    Go figure :p


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭pete


    Isn't it possible to just only stick 30 on each so that the bandwidth would be shard between them.

    I assume UTV etc don't buy RADSL connections in job lots of 48 at a time & so can't decide to just share out the capacity between a reduced number of subscribers.... or do they?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,019 ✭✭✭thecivvie


    Originally posted by Martin-UTVi

    Yes, but a lot more expensive - most of the heavy users in this thread (I'm assuming) are home users who do not want to increase their net usage costs. [/B]

    I used to live in Reading before BB and I was on a microwave link with a company called Tele2. This is an excellent service and I got spoilt.

    As you say, most heavy users are home users, and I am looking for a 24/7 connection, dialup, BB or whatever. The pc will be 24/7 but not me, I just want the option :)

    Sean

    Join Ireland Weather Network




  • Registered Users Posts: 7,796 ✭✭✭Calibos


    The thing about contentions that I don't understand is related to the DSLAMS in the exchange. Is it a case of Eircom installing a single Dslam in the exchange and only adding another when its got its full complement of 48 users, so in my case on the bray exchange, the chances are that from the word go I'll probably have to share my connection with 48 others. There must be at least 48 early adopters in Bray (pop 30,000+) like me.

    Or is it a case of say for example Eircom starting their Bray rollout with 10 Dslams and kind of splitting Bray into 10 sectors in which case of those 48 early adopters I might be lucky and be only one of 3 or 4 DSL users in my 'Sector' and thus not really have to share my connection for a long while until other people in my sector upgrade to DSL??


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 674 ✭✭✭Stonemason


    This really did make me smile :D
    We have looked at wireless and done feasibility on various aspects of it....but its very restrictive. Line of sight, weather conditions permitting, limited range etc etc. To cover an area like Dublin or the greater Belfast area you could be looking at 6-12 aerials. This area though is one that is changing rapidly and something we are keeping an eye on (tethered ballons, new non line of sight technologies etc.) The cost of rolling out broadband on a wireless basis is very expensive whilst only covering a limited % of the population. And of course once you have terminated your wireless connection atop a tall mountain/building, who are you going to pay to backhaul it to your POP via fibre....?

    Im glad to see that UTV are looking in the right direction.Maybe the last bit is abit confusing as i would have thought that the much talked about ESB fiber figure of eight would have been the best choice ?.

    I maybe wrong but (here we go again)the balloon soloution seems ideal you could locate the balloons close to ESB,s fiber network just about anywhere in the country acording to there map.The 80km radius these ballons have could cover just about all of ireland without much difficulty.Acording to skylincs map three balloons would cover all of ireland hell if they cost ten million € each it would be a fraction of the money the government has ear-mark for broadband rollout :D.

    As regards the cost unfortunately i havent recieved a reply from the E-mails i sent to both the ESB and Skylinc so i have know idea how much it would cost for the ballons and the fiber backhaul.I know your a busy man martin but maybe you could give us a breakdown of cost for this kind of system like the one you did for your new broadband costings ;).
    This new service adds significant value across all the supply chain, from end-user subscribers who will get fibre speed services at DSL pricing to network operators who will achieve massive network coverage at minimised cost and in reduced timescales.
    LIBRA - The Key Facts
    It works! Technical field trials throughout September 2002 exceeded all expectations Each LIBRA cell has a MASSIVE coverage of 2,000 sq miles (equivalent coverage of up to 2,000 traditional wireless base stations)87% of UK SME business locations will be accessible from only 18 LIBRA platforms Scaleable for up to 30,000 non-contending subscribers per super-cell Fast 2-way service - just like more expensive fibre options
    No requirement for a separate uplink such as modem, ISDN or leased line
    Service is fully available whether you live in a town or in the most remote cottage in the country
    Network roll out achieved for 10% of equivalent ground station costs
    End user rates targeted as 'Fibre rate service at DSL prices'
    Individual customer service rates from 1MB/s -10MB/s
    Mounted on an elevated platform. A proven technology with over 30 years of operation
    Regulatory approvals already granted for trials


    for more read em and weep :DSkylinc


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,143 ✭✭✭spongebob


    Run the national Digital Terrestrial TV system off the same 9 balloons while ye are at it lads.

    M


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭Martin-UTVi


    I assume UTV etc don't buy RADSL connections in job lots of 48 at a time & so can't decide to just share out the capacity between a reduced number of subscribers
    No.
    Is it a case of Eircom installing a single Dslam in the exchange and only adding another when its got its full complement of 48 users, so in my case on the bray exchange, the chances are that from the word go I'll probably have to share my connection with 48 others
    No, its to do with the backhaul to the ISP. For every 2meg backhaul, Eircom will route a maximum of 192 virtual paths/routes/users back to the ISP, therefore the contention ratio is 48:1.
    know your a busy man martin but maybe you could give us a breakdown of cost for this kind of system
    Haven't looked into it in that kind of detail.....but I think initially it was being proposed as a business BB service at approx €100 per month. This I picked up reading between the lines of the various releases at the time. It was in no way being suggested that it would initially service a residential market :(


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭the corpo


    question

    is there an upload cap??


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 11,389 ✭✭✭✭Saruman


    I just signed my interest though im probably going to go with netsource unless this 5gb cap is set to at least 10gb.. i dont care when you say you only reserve the right.. on a 12 month contract im not taking the chance. 10gb is more than enough though. 5gb is just not enough.


Advertisement