Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

"Leap" into the unknown: The feedback thread

1242527293094

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4 Centrocampista


    Dublin Bus PR girl on Newstalk said that DB have "applied" to the NTA for a 5% increase in the price of the T90.

    Im sure the NTA will resist this as in the past !


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    Dublin Bus PR girl on Newstalk said that DB have "applied" to the NTA for a 5% increase in the price of the T90.

    Im sure the NTA will resist this as in the past !

    Interesting,verrry interesting.....when one considers that initially Dublin Bus applied for a 30% increase in cash-fares and was granted a 15% figure....

    A 5% increase on a T90 would bring it to €19.95,leaving it still ahead of the LeapCard fares in terms of attraction.

    It's all quite odd really....:confused:


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Dublin Bus PR girl on Newstalk said that DB have "applied" to the NTA for a 5% increase in the price of the T90.

    Im sure the NTA will resist this as in the past !
    That would make the 10 ticket card cost only €19.45? not much of an increase and still excellent value.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I have four Travel 90s stocked up. :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    I'd say the Travel 90 will be €20. Perhaps they'll use this opportunity to reduce the automatic validator to €2. Oh, and increase cash fares to €2...


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 620 ✭✭✭noelfirl


    If the Travel 90 does only go up to €20 and becomes loadable onto Leap then it could become very quickly the defacto choice for everyone above the stage 1-3 fare. It could in theory knockdown a big chunk of driver interaction. Seems pointless then that they would continue to operate the upper and outer suburban fares.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,350 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    If a pasenger is a Bus-Only customer at the €1.90,€2.15 and €2.65 fares then the T90 at €19 represents serious value,which can be extended further if the Transferability option is used.

    Even at €19 the T90 doesn't make sense for the €1.90 ("medium zone") user as the equivalent LEAP card fare is €1.70, unless of course you are transferring.
    AlekSmart wrote: »
    Used in this manner,it knocks LeapCard into a cocked-hat in terms of value.

    For the long zone (€2.15/€1.95) and above then yes it does.

    AlekSmart wrote: »
    Therefore I would suspect that some arm-twisting,sorry...intensive negotiation has been in progress which,I think,will see the T90 go to €24 and made available on LeapCard only.

    It makes perfect sense to make it Leap Card only. That way you can have both the e-purse and T90 on the same card. The passenger can then either decide to use the T90 by using the right hand validator or the e-purse for cheaper fares at the driver. and of course also use it on LUAS and DART.

    If T90 goes Leap only, then there is really no reason for the NTA to fear it and force it to be more expensive then it needs to be. In fact it makes the Leap card even more attractive.

    If the Dublin Bus PR girl is right, then a 5% increase in the T90 will make it €19.95 or almost €2 per fare.

    If the NTA could keep it at €19.50, it would make it €1.95 per fare and it would be the prefect replacement for the long zone and above fare (€2.15/€1.95).

    In fact then the only question would be why even bother to have the T90 as a pre-paid card. At €1.95 it should just be made the standard fare when using the right hand validator.

    So it seems not only can they not get a single fare right for Dublin Bus, but they can't get the tag-on maximum fare right when thy are so close to it.

    Standing back and looking at this I can clearly see in-fighting between the NTA and Dublin Bus. We are seeing this mismatch because it looks like the LEAP card folks are forced to have a matching LEAP fare for each cash fare and tag-only being the maximum cash fare. While DB have control over pre-paid tickets and set them at more attractive prices.

    It really makes no sense for them not to agree to set the T90 at €1.95 and make it the maximum fare for LEAP card the T90 without the need to pre-purchase.

    This would go a long way to eliminating probably 50% of the problem of people needing to talk to the drivers for their fare and the resulting long dwell times. Instead they just tag-on.

    You are then only left with the problem of short and medium zone passengers. Which could be gradually increased over time until you eventually end up with a flat fare.

    It would be a good first step towards flat fares.

    If they don't do this, then it is clear that either the NTA or DB or both are totally inept and have no interest in creating an improved bus service for all.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,332 ✭✭✭Mr Simpson


    Make 1.95 the standard fare on the right hand validator and allow you to transfer for 90 minutes automatically, deducted from the epurse, no need to load t90's at all then.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    bk wrote: »
    If they don't do this, then it is clear that either the NTA or DB or both are totally inept and have no interest in creating an improved bus service for all.

    All of bk's excellent post would have been rendered unnecessary if the relevant bodies had begun the ITS project from the most logical starting point,12 years ago.......Agree,Rationalize and Integrate the various fare structures FIRST,all else would have followed through from that.....:rolleyes:


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,565 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Can someone tell me since when did the last ticket machine update on Dublin Bus take place

    In particular when was the function to charge cash fares on a leap card added. The reason being as yesterday a driver was only able to charge me the equivalent cash fare on my leap card rather than the discounted leap fare.

    It's all the more sinister since there is no valid leap fare of any type for the amount that I was charged by the system. It has all the hallmarks of the pre new year overcharging all over again.

    I've emailed leap customer care but I'm curious to know why Dublin Bus need to upload such a fare onto their ticket machine if it does not exist?


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 1,090 ✭✭✭xalot


    Apologies if this has already been answered (it's a big thread) but has anybody else had their card balance deducted wrongly? Basically I had a balance or 9.90 and paid a fare of 1.70 and according to the online system my balance is 8.19.

    You couldn't make it up.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,332 ✭✭✭Mr Simpson


    xalot wrote: »
    Apologies if this has already been answered (it's a big thread) but has anybody else had their card balance deducted wrongly? Basically I had a balance or 9.90 and paid a fare of 1.70 and according to the online system my balance is 8.19.

    You couldn't make it up.

    Yeah its been answered a few pages back, there seems to be a problemwith rounding numbers on the computer system, leaving balances out by 1c.


  • Registered Users Posts: 323 ✭✭el flaco


    That fare deduction error seems to sort itself after a few transactions when it gets 'de-rounded'.
    For some reason the last couple of times I've tagged off in the evenings it hasn't registered in my account history but the display on the validator seems to be correct and future transactions in my account history seem to arrive at the correct balance despite this missing entry. No biggy, but I feel like I need to keep an eye on it just in case.


  • Registered Users Posts: 78,218 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    The very thought that Public Transport fares should be kept at the lowest possible rate is regarded as heretical by many of these regulatory types,who will continue to add more and more complexity to our existing wheelbarrow full....:rolleyes:
    I'm not sure if that is quite fair / accurate. The NTA have made clear than increasing fares for basic services can hit those that can least afford it hard.
    bk wrote: »
    Standing back and looking at this I can clearly see in-fighting between the NTA and Dublin Bus. We are seeing this mismatch because it looks like the LEAP card folks are forced to have a matching LEAP fare for each cash fare and tag-only being the maximum cash fare. While DB have control over pre-paid tickets and set them at more attractive prices.
    that they are **asking** for an increase suggests that the NTA have power over them on this.
    devnull wrote: »
    Can someone tell me since when did the last ticket machine update on Dublin Bus take place
    It is hard to say. The first Leap buses were rolled out months ago and no doubt various software tweaks are added from time to time.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    Victor wrote: »
    I'm not sure if that is quite fair. The NTA have made clear than increasing fares for basic services can hit those that can least afford it hard.

    I use the term in it's broadest possible context,all the way to the top....which in olden days was The Minister....now it's not so clear if The Minister actually controls anything....?


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,650 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato
    Restaurant at the End of the Universe


    mmcn90 wrote: »
    Yeah its been answered a few pages back, there seems to be a problemwith rounding numbers on the computer system, leaving balances out by 1c.

    FFS, they used floating point variables to handle money? All arithmetic should be done as integers with the amounts in cents. If you use floats, because the representation of decimal numbers in binary is inexact, sooner or later you will get noticeable errors.

    Sloppy programming to say the least. I wonder how secure the personal info on their website is....

    It took a while but I don't mind. How does my body look in this light?



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,761 ✭✭✭✭Winters


    I encountered an issue where I tagged off one evening but my leap card didnt register it as a tag off and charged me the full €4.30 so I emailed leap card and this is was the response I received. How on earth this can be classified as 'integrated' god only knows..
    Thank you for contacting us regarding your recent Leap Card Transactions.

    We have completed our review and have submitted to Irish Rail a refund request on your behalf.

    Once Irish Rail has confirmed your Refund, we will email you with instructions on how the refund can be added to your Leap Card.

    Regards
    General Query’s
    Leap Card Back Office Services


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,358 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    mmcn90 wrote: »
    Yeah its been answered a few pages back, there seems to be a problemwith rounding numbers on the computer system, leaving balances out by 1c.

    Na, it's only a display issue on the site, your card will hold the balance, what you see on a validator is what you've got.

    el flaco wrote: »
    That fare deduction error seems to sort itself after a few transactions when it gets 'de-rounded'.
    For some reason the last couple of times I've tagged off in the evenings it hasn't registered in my account history but the display on the validator seems to be correct and future transactions in my account history seem to arrive at the correct balance despite this missing entry. No biggy, but I feel like I need to keep an eye on it just in case.

    Its all dependant on when the history gets updated that any missing transactions display for you. All its doing is displaying what your card data said at that particular touch. As is well mentioned throughout the thread with DB as an example, buses are out all day and transactions aren't taken from them until the early hours of the following day. I don't think the website is calculating anything. Why would it sure as the balance is on the card.


  • Registered Users Posts: 323 ✭✭el flaco


    Its all dependant on when the history gets updated that any missing transactions display for you. All its doing is displaying what your card data said at that particular touch. As is well mentioned throughout the thread with DB as an example, buses are out all day and transactions aren't taken from them until the early hours of the following day. I don't think the website is calculating anything. Why would it sure as the balance is on the card.

    Yeah that's fair enough, it's just that the history is never getting updated with that specific touch (all previous ones during the day are displayed) so it left me wondering whether in fact it had worked at all or whether i was being charged full whack. I tend not to stand around at the validators in the evening to read my balance as there does be arms everywhere at them things!


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,358 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    el flaco wrote: »
    Yeah that's fair enough, it's just that the history is never getting updated with that specific touch (all previous ones during the day are displayed) so it left me wondering whether in fact it had worked at all or whether i was being charged full whack. I tend not to stand around at the validators in the evening to read my balance as there does be arms everywhere at them things!

    Well, I mentioned dublin bus as it's been mentioned about what their delays are when it comes to updating. Could be similar with the others, so checking back again at a later time they might show up then.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    AlekSmart wrote: »

    A 5% increase on a T90 would bring it to €19.45,
    FYP:)
    mmcn90 wrote: »
    Yeah its been answered a few pages back, there seems to be a problemwith rounding numbers on the computer system, leaving balances out by 1c.
    xalot wrote: »
    Apologies if this has already been answered (it's a big thread) but has anybody else had their card balance deducted wrongly? Basically I had a balance or 9.90 and paid a fare of 1.70 and according to the online system my balance is 8.19.

    You couldn't make it up.
    ninja900 wrote: »
    FFS, they used floating point variables to handle money? All arithmetic should be done as integers with the amounts in cents. If you use floats, because the representation of decimal numbers in binary is inexact, sooner or later you will get noticeable errors.

    Sloppy programming to say the least. I wonder how secure the personal info on their website is....

    How can this system costing €55milion be trusted when the basics are so messed up?


  • Registered Users Posts: 674 ✭✭✭etchyed


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    FYP:)

    €19 * 1.05 = €19.95


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    etchyed wrote: »
    €19 * 1.05 = €19.95

    Goodness,Foggy_Lad has stirred up a nest of mathematical hornets here !!!!

    To recap on my point.....Dublin Bus applied for a 30%+ Increase on cash fares.

    The NTA granted 15%,or 50% of the amount sought.

    Now applying my flawed logic to the DB application for a pre-paid increase which I mused would be a sought 10% (In line with Luas grant).

    So if the NTA approves 5%...we get 5% of €19.00 = .95c

    SO...if we add .95c to €19.00 we arrive eventually at....€19.95....?...Or are my sums all foggied up ??

    But it's all hypothetical at this point anyway,as I'm sure there are hundreds of NTA/DB economists beavering away to ensure that the Fares System is simplified and rendered attractive for a great many more users.....yes..???? :confused:


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,243 ✭✭✭✭Jesus Wept


    Spar is listed as a leap card agent near where I live however they don't do it and a shop across the road do.

    Website is annoyingly incorrect.


  • Registered Users Posts: 723 ✭✭✭Tarabuses


    Winters wrote: »
    I encountered an issue where I tagged off one evening but my leap card didnt register it as a tag off and charged me the full €4.30 so I emailed leap card and this is was the response I received. How on earth this can be classified as 'integrated' god only knows..

    The same thing happened to my daughter when she tagged off at Sutton having travelled from Connolly. She was also charged €4.30.


  • Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭D8 boy


    Has anyone else tried to use a Leap card with a negative balance on a bus ?

    I've been using my Leap card since before Christmas without too much bother. Like some other contributors to this thread, I find the display on the card reader hard to read and, aware of the queue of other passengers normally boarding after me, I tend to focus on the green light as a signal that the transaction has completed.

    I made a number of bus journeys recently and had no idea of my balance. One evening I boarded a no. 13, placed my card on the reader to find that the machine didn't seem to be detect it. The driver got me to hold it different ways, stared at his display and eventually concluded the "the doo-dah must be broken, all you can do is sit down". Assuming this was a problem with the reader, i sat down and enjoyed my free journey home.

    Next day, different bus, usual routine of putting the card on the reader and ask for €1.70. Again not a flicker from the reader, despite trying the card at different angles. This time the driver jabbed some buttons on the machine and said what sounded like "your balance is €1.25". Since this was less than the fare I had already asked for, I then asked what the cash equivalent of €1.70 and dived into my pockets to find €1.90 in change. By the time all of this was completed it looked like every pair of eyes on the lower deck was drilling into me...

    When I got home I logged on to find that my balance was in fact -€1.25. I topped it up and it's working fine.

    It seems a very strange design to make the card appear "dead" when it is in fact out of cash, but since this happened twice it seems unlikely to be a fluke. The Luas card readers make a warning noise and show a message when your balance is low and make a different noise again when the balance is insufficient to make a trip. And in London I know the Oyster machines on the buses make a suitably embarrassing noise when the card has run out.

    Between the too-small displays, inaudible sounds, sloping reader surface and illogical handling of low balances, has Dublin Bus bought the worst smart card system ever?!!


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    D8 boy wrote: »
    Has anyone else tried to use a Leap card with a negative balance on a bus ?

    It seems a very strange design to make the card appear "dead" when it is in fact out of cash, but since this happened twice it seems unlikely to be a fluke. The Luas card readers make a warning noise and show a message when your balance is low and make a different noise again when the balance is insufficient to make a trip. And in London I know the Oyster machines on the buses make a suitably embarrassing noise when the card has run out.

    Between the too-small displays, inaudible sounds, sloping reader surface and illogical handling of low balances, has Dublin Bus bought the worst smart card system ever?!!

    D8 Boy,there's no "seems" about it,this is yet another example of some VERY poor forward (or backward) planning on the part of RPA/Leap.

    It looks as if the proponents of Leap never actually boarded a bus under live conditions and tried their hand at various scenarios such as you experienced.

    When an out of credit LeapCard is presented at the Drivers Ticket Machine,the screen defaults to the choice mode for Ticket Types or Further Info.

    There is no audible warning to either driver or Leaper that the card is out of credit and the driver must then enter "View Card Details" to see the credit situation...another long winded and far from clear situation.

    A simple "INSUFFICIENT CREDIT !" warning along with the actual balance would be sufficient,yet this is unlikely to happen.

    From my recent experience,most of the lack of credit cases have had full Dart fares deducted without it being spotted until too late !!! :mad:

    But,be glad....Dublin Bus has bought nothing...this gig is an NTA/ITS production....


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    Goodness,Foggy_Lad has stirred up a nest of mathematical hornets here !!!!

    To recap on my point.....Dublin Bus applied for a 30%+ Increase on cash fares.

    The NTA granted 15%,or 50% of the amount sought.

    Now applying my flawed logic to the DB application for a pre-paid increase which I mused would be a sought 10% (In line with Luas grant).

    So if the NTA approves 5%...we get 5% of €19.00 = .95c

    SO...if we add .95c to €19.00 we arrive eventually at....€19.95....?...Or are my sums all foggied up ??

    But it's all hypothetical at this point anyway,as I'm sure there are hundreds of NTA/DB economists beavering away to ensure that the Fares System is simplified and rendered attractive for a great many more users.....yes..???? :confused:
    You are absolutely correct with your mathematics SmartAlek:) I must have been gone fishing when they did percentages in skool:D


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,761 ✭✭✭✭Winters


    Tarabuses wrote: »
    The same thing happened to my daughter when she tagged off at Sutton having travelled from Connolly. She was also charged €4.30.

    Ring them and explain the issue. Dont bother emailing them.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 951 ✭✭✭robd


    ninja900 wrote: »
    FFS, they used floating point variables to handle money? All arithmetic should be done as integers with the amounts in cents. If you use floats, because the representation of decimal numbers in binary is inexact, sooner or later you will get noticeable errors.

    Sloppy programming to say the least. I wonder how secure the personal info on their website is....

    I would hazzard a guess that the it is the smart card that uses floating point, rather than the website. This would therefore be a technology limitation as it likely has limited memory hence lack of integer maths.

    The website should be capable of fixing/allowing these errors though.


This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement