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Irish Rural transport - the "secret" existing network [Zombie thread]

2

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 29 gunbarrel


    How much are Ryanair passengers subsidised when flying from Farranfore to Dublin?

    Look it up or put in an FOI request. Why do you ignore the fact they also get paid to fly from Dublin to Farranfore?
    Why do you categorise Public transport and rural transport separately?

    If that is my second last paragraph you are referring to then it should actually read Public Transport and the School Bus scheme, not Rural Transport.
    Urban dwellers who have built homes recently would have paid for sewage infrastructure through the development levy taxes charged by local councils.

    And culchies in the sticks use septic tanks. So that is one thing we can scratch of the long list of subsidies, however there is still a very long list.
    Urban dwellers who fly from one city to another don't get subsidised travel, unlike people flying to/from rural airports.

    See that is a lie and you know it. If a Dub wants to fly to Galway he is subsidised every bit as much as the Galwegian is for flying the other way around. The subsidy is equally available to all. And are Dublin and Galway not both cities? How about Dublin and Derry, also subdised for anyone who wants to use the flight, again both urban areas.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    gunbarrel wrote: »

    Look it up or put in an FOI request. Why do you ignore the fact they also get paid to fly from Dublin to Farranfore?

    I don't think passengers get paid to fly with Ryanair at all. Ryanair get paid.
    If I did fly there, what should I declarer the benefit to be on my form 11 next year? or do ryanair pay tax on the income they receive from the state for this instead of the passenger.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 29 gunbarrel


    gunbarrel wrote: »
    I don't think passengers get paid to fly with Ryanair at all.

    They dont get paid, they receive a subsidy which makes the flight more affordable. Of course this only applies to flights where Ryanair have a PSO.

    Ryanair get paid.

    A basic understanding of economics would help you. The subsidy is paid directly to Ryanair on behalf of the customers because it is easier to manage and the level of the subsidy is determined by the number of passengers and the amount of income received i.e they are guarnateed a minimum and the Government make up the shortfall.

    If I did fly there, what should I declarer the benefit to be on my form 11 next year? or do ryanair pay tax on the income they receive from the state for this instead of the passenger.

    Do you declare a benefit everytime you take a train? Every time you take a bus? If you work for an international company that receives subsidies as an incentive to relocate here? etc etc. No you dont now cop yourself on and stop asking silly questions.

    People like you forget that it is the users of these services that are subsidised. You like to pretend that it is rural folk who are receiving all of these subsidies but that is highly unlikely. The subsidy is effectively given to anyone who avails of the services and the services all go both ways. You seem to have it in your head that no urban dweller ever uses any of the PSO (flights) services but that is ridiculous, especially considering two of the PSOs as already mentioned are between cities. And to think that no urban dweller ever flies to Donegal, Sligo or Kerry seems unrealistic.


    For an example of this go to Heuston Station, Connolly Station or Bus Áras on a Friday. Watch all the urban dwellers get the train or bus down the country for a weeked, all subsidised going home to see Mammy and Daddy for the weekend. They live and work/study in the city now so they are all urban dwellers. In fact if you wanted to be childish about it you could point out that those who live in Dublin have acess to the most transport subsidies. You can fly to at least 5 destinations on a subsidised flight and you can get buses and trains to just about anywhere in the country, all of which are subsidised (Well IÉ and BÉ anyway).


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,797 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    on 31-08-2009 I posted this to start this thread
    The abject state of the public transport system in Ireland would be no surprise if you assume routes have to pay their way without subsidy.

    Thing is though, there is a "secret" network of busses plying the roads of Ireland which is subsidised to the hilt.

    In the paper over the weekend, it was mentioned that the extensive fleet of busses to bring children to school in rural Ireland gets more subsidy than Dublin Bus.
    This brings the question of why a working person in the country paying taxes cant avail of using the same subsidised busses as rural kids (as happens in Dublin and Northern Ireland or on the continent) . Heck, if working people were to use the busses and pay the normal fare then the income from the regular passengers would actually reduce the amount of subsidy required to run a service.

    Where I was brough up in Cavan, 3 busses leave our village for Cavan town in the Morning at 8 am on 3 different routes taking in virtually the entire hinterland between the 2 places. And a return service again just after 4. Its a crying shame that a normal person cant avail of the service too.

    For what reason can Bus Eireann/ Department of Transport/ Local county councils not organise the schools transport to be more than just a kids only transport solution?

    The busses are there. The drivers are in place. But you cant even pay to get on the bus - which your tax money is subsidising!!
    Today, this is being proposed by the government.
    One rural service to replace costly range of buses
    By Treacy Hogan Environment Correspondent
    Tuesday February 28 2012

    COMMUTERS and the elderly could soon be using the same bus as schoolchildren.

    A new 'rural transport bus' will replace the current dedicated schoolbuses, mini-buses for the elderly and non-emergency HSE transport.

    The landmark move, to be announced today, will see all of the current services being integrated into a single rural public transport service.

    The duplication of transport services by the Department of Education, the HSE and the Rural Transport Programme, which provides services mainly for the elderly who live in rural areas without any public transport, has, up to now, been a major concern.<snip>
    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/one-rural-service-to-replace-costly-range-of-buses-3032909.html

    uncanny the similarity between my copped on suggestion and the copped on proposal by the government!


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,465 ✭✭✭highlydebased


    I wouldn't mind to see it happen- there's a schoolbus to the end of my road yet the nearest "public transport" bus is 10 minutes drive away!


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    I wouldn't mind to see it happen- there's a schoolbus to the end of my road yet the nearest "public transport" bus is 10 minutes drive away!
    I could see this working where there is capacity on the school buses but most are full and could not cope with the extra passengers from merging a normal daily service with the school service. Also the non-emergency HSE minibus usually carries a nurse and goes door to door for patients so could not be merged with others due to the extra risk of infection and the extra delay loading and unloading patients. A nice idea but not feasible.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,465 ✭✭✭highlydebased


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    I could see this working where there is capacity on the school buses but most are full and could not cope with the extra passengers from merging a normal daily service with the school service. Also the non-emergency HSE minibus usually carries a nurse and goes door to door for patients so could not be merged with others due to the extra risk of infection and the extra delay loading and unloading patients. A nice idea but not feasible.

    Some but not all are full. Considering the "merged" service probably only carries a handful anyway, I can't forsee a problem. In many cases the schoolbus will actually provide a public transport service like in my scenario described above.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 560 ✭✭✭Jehuty42


    I don't think that the proposed changes has anything to do with letting paying passengers on. The existing services will continue to operate with no change, this is just a back-room administrative juggle to save money.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Some but not all are full. Considering the "merged" service probably only carries a handful anyway, I can't forsee a problem. In many cases the schoolbus will actually provide a public transport service like in my scenario described above.
    It could work well where the schools service can be cancelled and children accommodated on slightly extended regular services but most rural services are weekly or twice weekly and serve different areas on different days so it again is a non runner.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,797 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    It could work well where the schools service can be cancelled and children accommodated on slightly extended regular services but most rural services are weekly or twice weekly and serve different areas on different days so it again is a non runner.
    Its not possible really to generalise as every school run is different and depending on the village/town/ school it may or may not make sense to allow paying/ elderly passengers on a bus.

    Even putting the sharing idea aside, theres busses there running about EMPTY making positioning runs that at the very least could be paying their way somewhat.

    i.e. my wee village in Cavan.
    Bus comes the 15km from Cavan in the morning empty at 7.30.
    Runs to Cavan with secondary kids leaving at 8am
    Bus leaves Cavan again empty at 8.30am the 15km back to the village and does a run of the countryside half empty there bringing primary kids to school.
    After doing that, bus leaves empty for Cavan town at 9.30am

    bus sits then the full afternoon in Cavan town.

    Then at 3pm, the bus comes the 15km from Cavan empty to do a lap of the locality with primary kids, the bus being half empty as there arent 55 kids to fill the bus.
    The bus then empty makes a run the 15km back to Cavan to pick up the secondary kids for 4.15pm and goes back to the village with that load.
    The bus then again goes back to Cavan empty in the evening!!

    Can you spot a little waste / missed opportunity somewhere

    Thats 3 necessary positioning runs each way that are made empty, almost 100km a day.
    Made by a bus eireann provided bus that I cannot get on even if I want to pay good money for .
    To a village that has no daily scheduled service!!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,797 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    The proposals are also mentioned in the examiner.
    An ongoing problem has been the inability of many people to access public transport services, despite the operation of school transport or other transport services funded by the State in their areas.

    The overall aim of the reforms will be to reduce duplication of services while increasing efficiency and maintaining existing services.
    <snip>
    In many cases, it is expected that in the future, pensioners, schoolchildren hospital patients and other commuters will be able to use the same service.


    As part of the reform, stakeholder organisations will be invited to take part in local working groups to explore the opportunities for transport integration in their region.

    Separately, the minister also recently announced plans for the introduction of a rural hackney licence as part of a reform of the taxi industry in recognition of poor public transport services in certain rural communities.
    http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/rural-transport-reforms-on-the-way-185351.html


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    There is also a child protection issue here, All bus drivers must be Gardai vetted before driving school buses AFAIK so are all the extra passengers going to be Gardai vetted? School buses are exactly that to segregate and protect children on their way to and from school, this is for their protection and also for the comfort and convenience of the travelling public.


  • Site Banned Posts: 5,904 ✭✭✭parsi


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    There is also a child protection issue here, All bus drivers must be Gardai vetted before driving school buses AFAIK so are all the extra passengers going to be Gardai vetted? School buses are exactly that to segregate and protect children on their way to and from school, this is for their protection and also for the comfort and convenience of the travelling public.

    So you're against the idea of merging services in order to provide a better service to te consumer and reduce rural isolation ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    I wonder if bus drivers would welcome other passengers on school buses as a way of mitigating messing?

    Foggy - do you lie awake at night worrying about school kids who travel on public buses in the cities?

    I think the problem is not so much that RTP and school buses are segmented so much that it should be easy to find out when they run. Accordingly any "open to the public" service should have its schedule published by the NTA as a GTFS feed along with BE/IE/DB - a Google Maps equipped device would be able to immediately plan door to door journeys from rural areas and not just urban ones as is likely in the future.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    parsi wrote: »
    So you're against the idea of merging services in order to provide a better service to te consumer and reduce rural isolation ?
    No

    If people want to live in the sticks they should make their own arrangements to get their children to school or home-school them!


  • Site Banned Posts: 5,904 ✭✭✭parsi


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    parsi wrote: »
    So you're against the idea of merging services in order to provide a better service to te consumer and reduce rural isolation ?
    No

    If people want to live in the sticks they should make their own arrangements to get their children to school or home-school them!

    Ah. Your earlier posts suggested that your objections were based on infection control and child protection issues.

    How far from Cork or Dublin do you think we should state that "the sticks" begin ? Would - for instance - Carlow be considered to be the sticks in terms of travelling to Dublin ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,797 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    the Deloitte report into efficiencies in Bus Eireann and Dublin bus also mention similar initiatives as I suggested and the government is now planing to implement.
    Strategic opportunities for Bus Éireann
    In light of the deteriorating financial situation facing the company, due to falling passenger numbers
    and increasing costs, Bus Éireann will need to assess strategic opportunities:
    • Subcontracting services to other operators
    • Integration with Rural Transportation Programme
    • Integration with Health Service Executive requirements
    http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/11393-0.pdf

    Publish date Jan '09 so before I got my speak in here on boards!
    Still, 3 years and a month on and theres 600 million+ spent on school and HSE runs since that particular report.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,725 ✭✭✭charlemont


    Ireland has/had such low density and large amounts of of land that if we actually had any real planning to begin with we could have built these bungalows/one-off housing around the edge of our cities/larger towns creating large but clean suburbs with actual footpaths and public lighting, Instead most areas that were created with large bungalows/one-off housing don't even have footpaths, lights or decent wide roads and most of the houses are divided by fields thus ensuring public transport doesn't hasn't a hope.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,594 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    I look forward to seeing them try to integrate the "ring up the night before and we'll pick you up at home" services with scheduled school runs.

    I was quite surprised at how many of these there are in Galway, and how hard it was to track down information about them.

    Some of the rural transport people do charge a fee - except that I suspect most of the passengers will qualify for a free travel pass.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    JustMary wrote: »
    I look forward to seeing them try to integrate the "ring up the night before and we'll pick you up at home" services with scheduled school runs.

    I was quite surprised at how many of these there are in Galway, and how hard it was to track down information about them.

    Some of the rural transport people do charge a fee - except that I suspect most of the passengers will qualify for a free travel pass.
    Most of those services are the only means elderly and disabled people have of getting out to a town to do a bit of shopping for a few hours or even go to the library to return books maybe once or twice a week.


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  • Site Banned Posts: 5,904 ✭✭✭parsi


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    JustMary wrote: »
    I look forward to seeing them try to integrate the "ring up the night before and we'll pick you up at home" services with scheduled school runs.

    I was quite surprised at how many of these there are in Galway, and how hard it was to track down information about them.

    Some of the rural transport people do charge a fee - except that I suspect most of the passengers will qualify for a free travel pass.
    Most of those services are the only means elderly and disabled people have of getting out to a town to do a bit of shopping for a few hours or even go to the library to return books maybe once or twice a week.

    As you mentioned if those people choose to live in the sticks then they should make their own arrangements .


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    parsi wrote: »
    As you mentioned if those people choose to live in the sticks then they should make their own arrangements .
    Most of these people have lived there all their lives and did not chose to move to or build a house miles from the nearest town and essential amenities. When people are disabled or get old they are often not able to drive and rely on the services provided by rural transport schemes like "ring-a-link" "town-link" etc most rural areas are covered all at relatively little cost due to the operators knowing how many passengers they will have for most journeys and using appropriate sizes of bus and mini-bus.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    parsi wrote: »
    Ah. Your earlier posts suggested that your objections were based on infection control and child protection issues.

    How far from Cork or Dublin do you think we should state that "the sticks" begin ? Would - for instance - Carlow be considered to be the sticks in terms of travelling to Dublin ?
    Would you like your children sitting next to a convicted rapist or child killer on the bus to school?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    Would you like your children sitting next to a convicted rapist or child killer on the bus to school?
    foggy - you haven't answered why if this is so likely that urban kids don't get picked up by similar buses.


  • Registered Users Posts: 78,218 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    But more than ANYTHING else I am sick of thick cu*ts like Chris Andrews and his acolytes arguing that the subsidy of transport is a ''rural' thing ...when it is not .
    Whatever one thinks of Mr. Andrews, can we refrain from such comments?
    foggy_lad wrote: »
    Would you like your children sitting next to a convicted rapist or child killer on the bus to school?
    Can you ease off on such comments?


    The greatest quantity of threat to school children probably comes from the class bully and general horseplay. The most substantial threats come from family members and authority figures known to the child. Having additional adults present on the bus probably makes things safer.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,395 ✭✭✭✭mikemac1


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    There is also a child protection issue here, All bus drivers must be Gardai vetted before driving school buses AFAIK so are all the extra passengers going to be Gardai vetted? School buses are exactly that to segregate and protect children on their way to and from school, this is for their protection
    foggy_lad wrote: »
    Would you like your children sitting next to a convicted rapist or child killer on the bus to school?

    A bit hysterical

    How do the children using Bus Éireann in Galway and Cork or Dublin Bus manage so?

    And if I had a conviction I'd choose to live in a city anyway as you can be a lot more anonymous then somewhere where everyone knows everyone.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,521 ✭✭✭Padraig Mor


    parsi wrote: »
    As you mentioned if those people choose to live in the sticks then they should make their own arrangements .

    I'd normally agree with this sentiment. However, a relative did a study of rural transport schemes in West Cork a couple of years back as part of a college course. She found that those using the schemes for the most part really were the old, disabled etc. She interviewed many of them and it appears that the "this is their only chance to get out of the house" maxim really is the truth, and most would never get out of the house if not for these schemes. I also believe that the cost involved is pretty low.


  • Registered Users Posts: 78,218 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    I'd normally agree with this sentiment. However, a relative did a study of rural transport schemes in West Cork a couple of years back as part of a college course. She found that those using the schemes for the most part really were the old, disabled etc. She interviewed many of them and it appears that the "this is their only chance to get out of the house" maxim really is the truth, and most would never get out of the house if not for these schemes. I also believe that the cost involved is pretty low.
    Surely these people would be better off in a village or sheltered housing environment?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Victor wrote: »
    Surely these people would be better off in a village or sheltered housing environment?
    Most have lived in the houses all their lives and should not be expected to move into some sheltered housing scheme or village leaving the houses many of them were born in, now that they are a bit older, what is wrong with looking after the elderly like they have looked after Ireland paying massive taxes all their lives, working on farms and in jobs where health and safety just meant the boss had to report your death if you were killed on the job, these people are the reason we all have so much today!


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 560 ✭✭✭Jehuty42


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    these people are the reason we all have so much
    today!

    I think it was joining the EU and the massive grants that came with that that actually got us to the level of a first-world country, not anything our old folks did back in their day out in the sticks.


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