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Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

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Comments

  • #2252
    pigtown
    Registered Users Posts: 1,289 ✭✭✭pigtown


    westtip wrote: »
    It will never happen because as we have all said - the whole thing was about re-opening the old line - this was always its achilles heel, because the old alignment would never deliver an inter-city service, its physically impossible. The Athenry Turn around in itself will always take nearly ten minutes out of the schedule, one presumes the "express" service being called for will stop at least at Gort - cutting out Ardrahan and Craughwell will save what 5/6 minutes? The average spees on this line will never get to 73 mph as Victor has quite rightly pointed out. The speed of these trains has nothing to do with the operator - in fact the people to blame for the slow speed of this service are those that demanded the re-opening of the line, because the southern loop away from Athenry was never contemplated and the whole idea of a rail line from Galway to Limerick should not have ever been based on re-opening the old line. If there were any justification for it - it was on the basis of a route that went Limerick - Ennis- Shannon Airport - Gort - Galway. To promote a new rail line along a new route between two moderately sized cities on the western fringes of Europe, which have very few commercial or cultural ties - at a time when land costs to build such a route would have been ridiculous was of course never a runner, but re-opening an old line - along a route which required no land purchase was always a compromise that was done to placate a rather vociferous group that simply wouldn't go away - they have achieved what is commonly known as a complete white elephant - and have only themselves to blame for it - Many have said it many times - We told you so!

    Have to take issue with you there westtip. The people to blame are actually the politicians who green-lighted the project. You can't blame people for campaigning for something they want, however flawed their idea is.


  • #2253
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    pigtown wrote: »
    Have to take issue with you there westtip. The people to blame are actually the politicians who green-lighted the project. You can't blame people for campaigning for something they want, however flawed their idea is.
    pigtown - when WoT were campaigning for the reopening they said it could be done for buttons. 106m was spent (plus some subsequent work on LCs and a bridge) and it clearly wasn't enough to provide a competitive service.


  • #2254
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    dowlingm wrote: »
    pigtown - when WoT were campaigning for the reopening they said it could be done for buttons. 106m was spent (plus some subsequent work on LCs and a bridge) and it clearly wasn't enough to provide a competitive service.
    Don't forget the cost of the drainage work when it flooded!


  • #2255
    westtip
    Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    pigtown wrote: »
    Have to take issue with you there westtip. The people to blame are actually the politicians who green-lighted the project. You can't blame people for campaigning for something they want, however flawed their idea is.

    Pigtown that is indeed a fair point, and it is a classic case of parish pump politics gone wrong. Yes, the idea was flawed but we lived in strange times when a lot of flawed ideas became flavour of the month and got funding; now is the time for some strong governance - Varadakar should be saying in no uncertain terms this project has been an abject failure, and the rest of the project is not on the long finger or postponed - but is simply not going to happen, he still pussy footed around on primetime recently - going on about cost benefit analysis and scrutiny etc - more reports more money more waste. For something we all now know is not going to happen (talking about the northern branch line now). Yes your point is right - they had a right to campaign for the railway - but those in goverment should have said no - and it wouldn't have been a matter of denying the wesht, if instead of this there had been a real commitment to do what is needed between Tuam and Gort - complete the death trap that is the N17, complete the Galway by pass and focus on one good idea that came out of Martin Cullen or was it Dempsey who coined the phrase - the Atlantic Road Corridor from Waterford to Letterkenny - and provide express bus services on the new dual carriageway (motorway not needed) between the north west and all points down the atlantic road corridor. Yes this is a much more expensive project, but lets put it in the context of our car dependent society in the west of ireland (that re-opening an old branch line was not going to change), our total dependence on roads for our supply chain logistics - and the need to rationalise services like hospital services into larger centres of excellence and to make them more local in terms of time accessability by bringing them closer to more people in the region with safe roads with good travel times. Its called urban and rural spatial planning, sadly its something we lack - its called - The big picture.


  • #2256
    Aard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    The WRC and similar mickey mouse projects all suffer (or gain, depending on your position) from the fact that they're effectively entirely centrally funded. If local authorities had to pay half the cost then they'd think twice before getting behind a white elephant. Many other European countries have local income taxation. In Denmark, for example, it's collected centrally then doled out to the various municipalities. Doing the same in Ireland would ensure that a certain amount of taxes generated in a county stayed in a county and could pay for projects that benefit the county. This wouldn't be hard to do, as Revenue already know where people reside and how much income tax they pay. It would be a simple accounting exercise.


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  • #2257
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    In 2006, WoTer Frank Dawson from Galway County Council addressed the "Sixth Annual Conference of Enterprise Kiltullagh Ltd" at Ballinlough. A Word doc of his presentation is on westontrack.com:
    Ennis to Athenry 36 miles €74.7m

    West on Track press release May 6th 2010
    "Call for immediate continuation of Western Rail Corridor to Tuam and Claremorris"
    It is understood that the Ennis-Athenry section of the WRC has come in well under budget at approximately euro70 million so the balance of the euro106 million allocated for Phase 1 can go a long way towards rebuilding to Tuam and Claremorris

    It wasn't just WoT being unrealistic to be fair - look at this from 2004
    Mr. Gallivan stated that it would take 12 months' work to upgrade the existing Galway-Ennis line. With the Ennis-Limerick upgrade costing euro13 million, an upgrading of the Ennis-Galway line would cost in excess of euro21 million.
    The quoted Mr. Gallivan's then job was... Iarnród Éireann's mid-west business development manager.


  • #2258
    pigtown
    Registered Users Posts: 1,289 ✭✭✭pigtown


    dowlingm wrote: »
    pigtown - when WoT were campaigning for the reopening they said it could be done for buttons. 106m was spent (plus some subsequent work on LCs and a bridge) and it clearly wasn't enough to provide a competitive service.

    Yes I agree the WRC has been a failure, but that is not the fault of WoT. They were not the people who sanctioned the project. They did not decide on the final route. They have no say in the running of services on the line. No matter what WoT claimed, it was the officials (not really sure who they were and I don't care enough to find out) in charge off the project who are to blame.

    I must clarify that I think WoT are totally unrealistic in their demands, I just don't think you can blame them for official ineptitude.


  • #2259
    roundymac
    Registered Users Posts: 2,712 ✭✭✭roundymac


    The saddest part of all this is that the failure of the WRC will be used as the stick to beat down future re-openings, eg, Midleton- Youghal/Athlone-Mullingar, Navan line.:mad:


  • #2260
    westtip
    Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    pigtown wrote: »
    They did not decide on the final route. .

    They did by campaigning for the re-opening of the old line. They would not have advocated the southern spur/link south west of Athenry to speed things up on the southern branch line as this would have killed off the fabled corridor argument about a line a from Sligo to Limerick via Athenry and the potential to build the northern branch line to Tuam - and the ultimate goal of claremorris to be the Clapham junction of the wesht.


  • #2261
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,234 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Ennis to Athenry 36 miles €74.7m
    +
    Ennis-Limerick upgrade costing euro13 million
    +
    upgrading of the Ennis-Galway line would cost in excess of euro21 million.
    = €108.7m, not a million miles from €106m.
    It is understood that the Ennis-Athenry section of the WRC has come in well under budget at approximately euro70 million so the balance of the euro106 million allocated for Phase 1 can go a long way towards rebuilding to Tuam and Claremorris
    :confused:


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  • #2262
    pigtown
    Registered Users Posts: 1,289 ✭✭✭pigtown


    westtip wrote: »
    They did by campaigning for the re-opening of the old line. They would not have advocated the southern spur/link south west of Athenry to speed things up on the southern branch line as this would have killed off the fabled corridor argument about a line a from Sligo to Limerick via Athenry and the potential to build the northern branch line to Tuam - and the ultimate goal of claremorris to be the Clapham junction of the wesht.

    We seem to just interpret these things differently westtip. You see them advocating reopening the old route as deciding on what will be built. I see it as them expressing an opinion as to what should happen, with the experts in charge to examine if the route is appropriate/viable. Either way the route they chose was evidently wrong.


  • #2263
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    pigtown wrote: »
    We seem to just interpret these things differently westtip. You see them advocating reopening the old route as deciding on what will be built. I see it as them expressing an opinion as to what should happen, with the experts in charge to examine if the route is appropriate/viable. Either way the route they chose was evidently wrong.
    There is no routing along any western corridor that is going to make money or even pay for itself, not since his lordship and his resident magistrate would travel in the first class carriage while going to town on their branch line and all the poor people worked for a few pennys a week and lived in little thatched hovels terrified of transportation has there been any chance of a line in the whest making money!


  • #2264
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,853 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    Aard wrote: »
    The WRC and similar mickey mouse projects all suffer (or gain, depending on your position) from the fact that they're effectively entirely centrally funded. If local authorities had to pay half the cost then they'd think twice before getting behind a white elephant. Many other European countries have local income taxation. In Denmark, for example, it's collected centrally then doled out to the various municipalities. Doing the same in Ireland would ensure that a certain amount of taxes generated in a county stayed in a county and could pay for projects that benefit the county. This wouldn't be hard to do, as Revenue already know where people reside and how much income tax they pay. It would be a simple accounting exercise.

    You know that nearly every county apart from the greater Dublin area are net receivers of money.

    If local taxes paid for projects, rural Ireland would have less than it has now.


  • #2265
    Aard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    I never said ONLY local taxes. I suggested partial local funding. 50% would be an upper limit imo. And yeah, that's kinda the point too -- Dublin would get more than it does today.


  • #2266
    westtip
    Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    pigtown wrote: »
    We seem to just interpret these things differently westtip. You see them advocating reopening the old route as deciding on what will be built. I see it as them expressing an opinion as to what should happen, with the experts in charge to examine if the route is appropriate/viable. Either way the route they chose was evidently wrong.

    The old route was the mantra and the way WOT marketed and pitched the campaign - no politician or planner in his/her right mind was going to advocate further expense to the project by buying land for a new route. They got what they asked for and we now know A poor policy decision was made.

    WOT also influenced the process producing ludicrously optimistic forecasts for usage as I recall but really have not got the energy to dig out, the forecast usage figures were a complete fudge, which many said you are having a laugh aren't you? They won't get a second chance to hoodwink the public purse - which is why the northern branch line will never be re-opened.

    It was never going to work because there simply aren't enough people to justify it, even with a reasonable amount of subvention. And the point is they (WOT), even now continue to stick with the old route mantra because you only have to look at the opposition and arguments they have put in place against a greenway on for example the claremorris/collooney route - that the route must be preserved forever in posterity for use as a railway that will never come and we will stop anything else out of spite. WOT are getting all worked up now about the figures on ennis/athenry and blaming the operator, perhaps they should look at themselves and be asking; Was this project all we cracked it up to be. It has done no favours to other rail projects and done no favours to the west this is why Varadakar should take his red pen out and say enough is enough and no more. Debate over.


  • #2267
    roundymac
    Registered Users Posts: 2,712 ✭✭✭roundymac


    A poor policy decision and a poor operation could have only one out come. How many extra votes did that decision garner for Bertie and his bunch, was the decision to reopen it taken at the "Galway Race Tent".:mad:


  • #2268
    pigtown
    Registered Users Posts: 1,289 ✭✭✭pigtown


    To be honest roundmac I don't know anyone who decided to vote for Bertie because of the WRC. Granted I live in county Limerick so maybe people who live near the line may have been swayed but I never got the sense that the public really wanted the line. Maybe I just havn't been paying attention.


  • #2269
    westtip
    Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    pigtown wrote: »
    To be honest roundmac I don't know anyone who decided to vote for Bertie because of the WRC. Granted I live in county Limerick so maybe people who live near the line may have been swayed but I never got the sense that the public really wanted the line. Maybe I just havn't been paying attention.

    It was a case of those who shouted loudest got the most attention - I think you are quite right it never has really been big issue with the electorate, despite WOT some would have us believe.


  • #2270
    serfboard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,668 ✭✭✭serfboard


    pigtown wrote: »
    I never got the sense that the public really wanted the line. Maybe I just havn't been paying attention.

    There was some petition I think, that had X thousand signatures saying to re-open the line, and that was where the "mandate" came from.

    But sure, you could ask the great un-washed anything, and they'll agree to it. Once it's explained to them properly - each journey that someone makes, you are going to be subventing them to the tune of €85 - you'd see people change their tune.

    Of course, the petition never asked - "Will you use the line?". If it had, the answer might have been different.

    Equally the answer might have been the same. However, if the question was asked "Will you use the train to get to work everyday?", and if only those people could have been permitted to sign the petition, then the pitiful numbers would have ensured that this money was not wasted.

    This was not a failure of economics, planning or transport. This was a failure of politics.

    Of course, I echo what was said earlier and what Leo said on PrimeTime - this was a decision taken when we thought we were going to be rich forever, and that we could afford to waste €100 million. That day is gone. But just because we originally wasted the money is no reason to continue wasting it by keeping the service open. (Again from PrimeTime) The Minister said he was going to make it work.

    He won't.


  • #2271
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    well done whoever moved this!


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  • #2272
    nlgbbbblth
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,668 ✭✭✭nlgbbbblth


    roundymac wrote: »
    A poor policy decision and a poor operation could have only one out come. How many extra votes did that decision garner for Bertie and his bunch, was the decision to reopen it taken at the "Galway Race Tent".:mad:

    Surely the Galway race tent bunch would prefer driving or helicopters as their mode of transport?


  • #2273
    pigtown
    Registered Users Posts: 1,289 ✭✭✭pigtown


    serfboard wrote: »
    There was some petition I think, that had X thousand signatures saying to re-open the line, and that was where the "mandate" came from.

    But sure, you could ask the great un-washed anything, and they'll agree to it. Once it's explained to them properly - each journey that someone makes, you are going to be subventing them to the tune of €85 - you'd see people change their tune.

    Of course, the petition never asked - "Will you use the line?". If it had, the answer might have been different.

    Equally the answer might have been the same. However, if the question was asked "Will you use the train to get to work everyday?", and if only those people could have been permitted to sign the petition, then the pitiful numbers would have ensured that this money was not wasted.

    This was not a failure of economics, planning or transport. This was a failure of politics.

    Of course, I echo what was said earlier and what Leo said on PrimeTime - this was a decision taken when we thought we were going to be rich forever, and that we could afford to waste €100 million. That day is gone. But just because we originally wasted the money is no reason to continue wasting it by keeping the service open. (Again from PrimeTime) The Minister said he was going to make it work.

    He won't.

    Didn't know about that petition. Was it something like this one that the Nenagh Rail Partnership undertook?
    http://www.irishrailwaynews.com/docs/NenaghRailStudy.pdf


  • #2274
    eth0
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,635 ✭✭✭eth0


    nlgbbbblth wrote: »
    Surely the Galway race tent bunch would prefer driving or helicopters as their mode of transport?

    Obligatory "transporting people by helicopter is cheaper than transporting them on the WRC" comment goes here.

    also "Ah sure everybody has helicopters nowadays, who needs rail?"


  • #2275
    Ted Mosby
    Closed Accounts Posts: 47 ✭Ted Mosby


    eth0 wrote: »
    Obligatory "transporting people by helicopter is cheaper than transporting them on the WRC" comment goes here.

    also "Ah sure everybody has helicopters nowadays, who needs rail?"

    The old chestnut that it would be cheaper to pay for taxis for the users of rail services is one that got trotted out during the construction of the Luas. And the DART. In fact there has always been an organised campaign against investment in any rail project in this country. The taxi shibboleth has been the standard objection to rail investment by a particular campaigner in the United States. This campaigner was regularly cited as an "expert" by several commentators in the Sundays during the construction of Luas. It would not be a huge leap of imagination to make a connection between graduates of Sean Barrett's classes, endemic anti rail rhetoric and those with a vested interest in the scrapping of the railways.

    Irish Rail's perverse attitude to its own infrastructure, with the calculated destruction of the rail connections at Rosslare and the encouraging of the notion, readily taken up here, that somehow rail investment is a zero sum game has not helped. As long as Coras Iompair Eireann remains as a gigantic outdoor relief scheme for its employees instead of being a manager of national infrastructure then dysfunctional decisions such as poor line speeds will continue to be made about transport strategy.


  • #2276
    westtip
    Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    I think the point really is - it won't maek one jot of diference who runs the WRC because you can't make a bad job work. There simply isn't hte demand for it. Arguments against LUAS or DART are quite ridiculous, becasue the Wesht awake crowd need to realise, Dublin happens to be where we do hve some semblance of a critical mass of people to justify light rail, suburban rail and tram services. I agree with the comments about CIE; Aer Lingus, ESB, and many parts of or semi-states have always been "members clubs". Its part of our dysfunctional management of public services.


  • #2277
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    westtip wrote: »
    I think the point really is - it won't maek one jot of diference who runs the WRC because you can't make a bad job work. There simply isn't hte demand for it. Arguments against LUAS or DART are quite ridiculous, becasue the Wesht awake crowd need to realise, Dublin happens to be where we do hve some semblance of a critical mass of people to justify light rail, suburban rail and tram services. I agree with the comments about CIE; Aer Lingus, ESB, and many parts of or semi-states have always been "members clubs". Its part of our dysfunctional management of public services.
    The point should be that it was a good job for the money and well done on achieving sub 2hour journeys with the alignment forced upon them, but they were never going to make a silk purse out of a sows ear! If there had been unlimited resources the speeds could have been increased more with level crossings automated or removed by bridges etc but for the money spent it appears to have been value for what was bought,

    BUT what was bought was not needed, not accessible by the majority of people along the route and not wanted apart from a few who wanted to relive the days of their grandparents when every crossroads and mountain dog box had a railway station and these misguided souls lobbied every politician and harranged everyone else who would listen till they just stopped listening and agreed to the project just to shut them up!


  • #2278
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,523 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Ted Mosby wrote: »
    The old chestnut that it would be cheaper to pay for taxis for the users of rail services is one that got trotted out during the construction of the Luas. And the DART.

    There's a slight problem comparing the WRC to the Dart and the Luas, which is that the usage figures of the WRC are so low that the "old chestnut" is completely true.


  • #2279
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    Yes that is so.2 taxis would suffice for the average train, and also would get the passengers to their destination quicker. I think it was suggested that it would also be cheaper to actually BUY taxis for individuals than subsidise the WRC


  • #2280
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    you have to look at the whole picture with this sort of thing. Look at France. They are putting tram/LRT into some fairly small towns, some even comparable in size to Cork and some other places which in Ireland are called cities because a dead king gave out a charter. to the likes of the WRC that's license to put rail in every part of rural Ireland they live in.

    But look at the payback. In Ireland, you get some skilled employment and so on but the local buy is limited. In France it subsidises the local champion (Alstom La Rochelle) with some foreign wins here and there to make things look kosher, but France also has steel and whatnot - every mile of Irish heavy or light rail is made abroad. Because of the level of imported and untariffed goods the payback for the national exchequer is consequently smaller and thus the cost/benefit must be higher on the residual spend.


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  • #2281
    westtip
    Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    MYOB wrote: »
    There's a slight problem comparing the WRC to the Dart and the Luas, which is that the usage figures of the WRC are so low that the "old chestnut" is completely true.

    +1 MYOB its the part they just don't get. The project was doomed to failure simply on the grounds of demographics. Its the old chestnut that the Wesht was being starved out of existence without this railway that really is the painful experience.

    Was staying with friends near stanstead aiport last week We wallked the Flitch Way http://www.gps-routes.co.uk/routes/home.nsf/RoutesLinksCycle/flitch-way-walking-and-cycle-route

    A greenway route along an old victorian branch line running through Essex. It was full of families out walking and cycling, stopping off at cafe on the route in one of the old stations. The people in the area love it. Of course there are loads of examples of such local greenways in the UK, and the funny thing is most of them get used by more people per day than the ennis athenry line!

    And just think what we could have on the WRC from Collooney to Ennis had we got the imagination. It would be a tourist mecca.


This discussion has been closed.
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