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New Household Tax - Boycott

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    cadete wrote: »
    absolutely ridiculous, are you saying populism means something different in ireland?

    Well we certainly have our own flavour of it. Here the left objects to a property tax while in the rest of the world it is seen as the tax on wealth is it. Makes no sense to object to it but they do all the same.
    cadete wrote: »
    domestic rates? please! blaming ff for everything back as far as 1978 now?

    Moving from sustainable taxes is all well and good in the good times but as soon as you hit the bad times it becomes a problem. This is basic economics. FF bought elections with a policy of high spending and low taxes. Common sense would suggest that doing this isn't sustainable and it wasn't. Yet we kept voting for them. Just stating the facts.
    cadete wrote: »
    And yes there are alternatives, maybe burn unsecured bondholders, or how about a weath tax, or possibly bring the high earning public servents earning 100k plus onto a salary that reflects the current state of the nation? Possibly we could also reduce their exorbitant pensions?

    I never suggested there wasn't many places savings could be made, like in the councils for example. You stated how great Donegal CoCo were for refusing to share addresses for the household charge. I simply pointed out they should start by implementing efficiencies and savings so the taxpayers burden is lessened. This move strikes me as stereotypical populism and it tries to deflect people from wondering where the council actually spends all it's money.
    cadete wrote: »
    What has the household charge got to do with efficiency?

    We're overspending 14 billion this year alone and 95% of that is not going to fund the banks. So if the councils are more efficient and we collect the household charge we will feel less pain elsewhere. Pretty simple stuff.
    cadete wrote: »
    Maybe we have learned maybe we have learned that enough is enough and we the ordinary people will no longer pay the price for everything that has happened in this country

    Perhaps then we shouldn't have voted for populist but foolish policies over the years. This is the archetypal moment where we get to lie in the bed we made.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    cadete wrote: »
    How did populism get ireland into this mess?
    Because people wanted less taxes and more government spending and that’s exactly what they got. But oh no, look, it was totally unsustainable and now government spending is out-stripping tax revenue by quite some distance.
    cadete wrote: »
    ...how about a weath tax...
    A property tax is a wealth tax.
    cadete wrote: »
    ...or possibly bring the high earning public servents earning 100k plus onto a salary that reflects the current state of the nation? Possibly we could also reduce their exorbitant pensions?
    You could reduce the salaries and pensions of every high-earning public servant by 100% and it would barely make a dent in the current deficit.
    cadete wrote: »
    Maybe we have learned maybe we have learned that enough is enough and we the ordinary people will no longer pay the price for everything...
    The “ordinary people” have not been paying the price for anything – that’s kind of the problem.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,774 ✭✭✭cadete


    meglome wrote: »
    We're overspending 14 billion this year alone and 95% of that is not going to fund the banks. So if the councils are more efficient and we collect the household charge we will feel less pain elsewhere. Pretty simple stuff.

    between Promissory Note payments to certain banking institutions and Banking recapitalisation the government is spending 4.385 billion this year. Is 4.385 5% of 14............


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    cadete wrote: »
    How did populism get ireland into this mess?
    populism "political ideas and activities that are intended to represent ordinary people's needs and wishes" from Cambridge dictionary

    The elected councillors of donegal from all parties bar fg supported this ban. Why did they support it? Because 70% of the population of Donegal refuse to pay this tax on their homes.


    You ask a good question. Why did the elected councillors of donegal support this ban?

    I don't have the details of the legislation but I will have a good guess. The collecting of the tax is probably an executive function reserved to the county manager and his officials. Therefore, any motion passed by the councillors will have no effect as the county manager can ignore it just as he can ignore a motion from the councillor to appoint the mayor's brother to a job. They can say to their constituents that they passed the motion but the county manager overruled them. It is all for show, for politics, for populism - it reflects a FF-type gombeenism that still exists in rural Ireland.

    Before someone starts jumping up and down about the county manager rejecting the democratically expressed will of the councillors, remember that there are good reasons for the division of power between executive, legislative and judiciary regimes. For example, if councillors could have a say in how local taxes were collected (rather than how much they should be), they could pass a motion saying don't collect rates in Ballybofey (the reason migt just be because a majority of councillors have businesses there). Don't think that wouldn't happen. One of the biggest scandals of the last 30 years in Ireland (yet to be fully exposed) is the effect that elected councillors have had in destroying the countryside because of planning motions that went against the advice of local planners.

    So to answer your question, the motion was populism only and will probably have no effect on the collection of the tax.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    cadete wrote: »
    between Promissory Note payments to certain banking institutions and Banking recapitalisation the government is spending 4.385 billion this year. Is 4.385 5% of 14............

    A little known fact that people should realise is we are being loaned extra money to pay for bonds etc which goes on our national debt. So 95% of that 14 billion were borrowing this year alone is not going to any bank. Very easy to deflect from the fact we're borrowing one third of all government spending and the picture doesn't exactly improve much if you take the banks out of it.

    And worth remembering (as I understand it, please correct me here if I'm mistaken) that the promissory notes payments are being paid by us to IBRC/Anglo (which we own) which then pays our central bank (which we own). Confusing but not quite the disaster some make out.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 409 ✭✭john reilly


    meglome wrote: »
    A little known fact that people should realise is we are being loaned extra money to pay for bonds etc which goes on our national debt. So 95% of that 14 billion were borrowing this year alone is not going to any bank. Very easy to deflect from the fact we're borrowing one third of all government spending and the picture doesn't exactly improve much if you take the banks out of it.

    And worth remembering (as I understand it, please correct me here if I'm mistaken) that the promissory notes payments are being paid by us to IBRC/Anglo (which we own) which then pays our central bank (which we own). Confusing but not quite the disaster some make out.
    thats nice e.c.b are giving us loans to pay back their banks in france and germany. we should be so grateful


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    thats nice e.c.b are giving us loans to pay back their banks in france and germany. we should be so grateful

    And dare I ask you to prove that statement? Seeing that no one ever has I won't hold my breath.

    The German ambassador on Today Fm. http://audioserver.todayfm.com/audio/mediamanager/todayfm/audio/german_panel_210212.mp3
    At 5:28 roughly. He says… “It would be a lot cheaper for us actually… if bailing out German banks were really what we were after, it would be a lot cheaper for Germany to do that directly rather that via Dublin and bailing out the Irish economy…”.

    Very difficult to argue against the logic.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭psychward


    meglome wrote: »
    And dare I ask you to prove that statement? Seeing that no one ever has I won't hold my breath.

    The German ambassador on Today Fm. http://audioserver.todayfm.com/audio/mediamanager/todayfm/audio/german_panel_210212.mp3
    At 5:28 roughly. He says… “It would be a lot cheaper for us actually… if bailing out German banks were really what we were after, it would be a lot cheaper for Germany to do that directly rather that via Dublin and bailing out the Irish economy…”.

    Very difficult to argue against the logic.

    I never thought I d say this but he and the Germans are full if it . its a really cheap bailout for Germany because we are on the hook for it instead of them


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    psychward wrote: »
    I never thought I d say this but he and the Germans are full if it . its a really cheap bailout for Germany because we are on the hook for it instead of them

    I'll try this one more time... people say we're paying the money back to German and French banks. But no one has proven that to be actually true.

    And he's right, using basic maths will tell you it would be cheaper for the Germans just to give more money to their own banks. They are giving us money at the rate they borrow it at, so what is in it for them?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 409 ✭✭john reilly


    meglome wrote: »
    And dare I ask you to prove that statement? Seeing that no one ever has I won't hold my breath.

    The German ambassador on Today Fm. http://audioserver.todayfm.com/audio/mediamanager/todayfm/audio/german_panel_210212.mp3
    At 5:28 roughly. He says… “It would be a lot cheaper for us actually… if bailing out German banks were really what we were after, it would be a lot cheaper for Germany to do that directly rather that via Dublin and bailing out the Irish economy…”.

    Very difficult to argue against the logic.
    didnt realise the money we are getting is a present. i thought it was a loan at an interest rate that is very high


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 409 ✭✭john reilly


    meglome wrote: »
    I'll try this one more time... people say we're paying the money back to German and French banks. But no one has proven that to be actually true.

    And he's right, using basic maths will tell you it would be cheaper for the Germans just to give more money to their own banks. They are giving us money at the rate they borrow it at, so what is in it for them?
    i thought germany were borrowing at around 2% and we are paying over 5%


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,157 ✭✭✭Good loser


    really peanuts, its a pay rise of 10k a year more than i earn.
    you sir are part of the problem all these peanuts add up to an awfull lot of money, to me this is a big issue.

    the big issue is that this gov doesnt have a plan, is creating inefficiency after inefficiency, how many seperate databases are they going to create do it once, do it right.
    they claim to be broadening the tax base, they should tell the truth and tell us that they are increasing the tax base and what they plan to increase it to so we can plan for that, instead of drip feeding rubbish out every day

    from the 2011 manifesto

    1. Help protect and create jobs
    2. Keep taxes low while fixing the deficit;
    3. Deliver smaller, better government;
    4. Create a completely new, fairer, more efficient health system; and
    5. Overhaul the way our political system works to stamp out cronyism and low standards.

    1. Focusing on budget cuts rather than job-destroying tax increases. The international evidence is clear: Tax hikes raise the unemployment rate by three times more than spending cuts.

    havent seen any of that yet

    The Govt spends/wastes €54 billion per annum and as an example of a 'big issue' you refer to an adviser getting an extra €37,000. Does it amount to one second's spending.

    So much debate in Ireland is about trifles or waffle. People like yourself defend this by saying it's symbolic - why then not cut to the chase and discuss those things it is symbolic of?

    In Donegal from my experience they take law and legality with a pinch of salt. Nothing surprising then with their councillors' behaviour with the household charge. The honest approach would have been to recommend equivalent cuts in services to exactly match the income foregone.

    Pathetic how FF have already reverted to type!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭psychward


    meglome wrote: »
    I'll try this one more time... people say we're paying the money back to German and French banks. But no one has proven that to be actually true.

    Ive seen plenty of examples of proof .


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    psychward wrote: »
    Ive seen plenty of examples of proof .

    The economist Karl Whelan was one of the people who claimed this. Scofflaw called him on it and he had no proof for it. The only figures I've seen were of all foreign debt in this country. Included in that was the IFSC which has a load of German banks, who owe the money to their parent companies in Germany... we don't owe it. But it shows as foreign debt.

    So either you have proof for the claim or you don't.

    See here.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,977 ✭✭✭Just a Plinker


    bkeano wrote: »
    Hi all Boardies

    Can we all please make a stance here and get our non boardies to do the same. Enough is Enough We should not pay this new household Tax. Its the same as the Poll tax in the UK. I am an normal Joe Soap with 2 kids. I cant pay any more Taxes. I can afford it as it is. I am lucky to have my Job.

    We need to mount a serious objection here and nationwide.

    thanks
    Brian


    Brian I think you are right I have not paid and will not pay, Nor will I allow a water meter to be installed on my property, I have listened to politicians rabbit on about In the North / In the UK they pay x amount. Okay fair enough, But how much do they pay for a car ,mmmm no VRT, how much do they pay for a doctors visit mmmmm, How much do they pay for a prescription to be filled ,mmmmmmm. IVF for the couples who need it and I'm not being smart on that one, It is at least 6000 euro here to give people the joy of having kids, Free I think in the UK ,I could go on and on. I paid enough vat and tax when I built my house plus other monies for and I quote (the up keep of local roads and amenities ) which I was under the impression my road tax and taxes on my wages were paying for at the time. But we are always the same lie down and take it. If I remember correctly the last time Labour were in charge of our country did they not try to but a tax on childrens shoes. I stand to be corrected on that. My only regret is that I did not borrow 15 million to build 150 houses and a mansion for myself as if I had have done that it would be okay now Nama would have sorted for me and I'd still have my S class merc for race days , My Mansion and my wife would have her 6 litre jeep for the school runs,

    Fair play to you for your post


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    I paid enough vat and tax when I built my house plus other monies for and I quote (the up keep of local roads and amenities ) which I was under the impression my road tax and taxes on my wages were paying for at the time.
    Is it beyond the realms of possibility that the cost of services provided is greater than tax revenue collected?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,924 ✭✭✭Raiser


    djpbarry wrote: »
    Is it beyond the realms of possibility that the cost of services provided is greater than tax revenue collected?

    Based on logic, common sense and all the available evidence I'd have to say that there is a substantial inconsistency between revenue collected and the standard of services provided.

    - An Irish person will now be born in an understaffed, dangerous, substandard Hospital, educated in a prefab, pay massive amounts of tax throughout their lifetime, including the newly invented 'novelty' taxes, before eventually dying in a corridor in another understaffed, dangerous, substandard Hospital.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    Raiser wrote: »
    Based on logic, common sense and all the available evidence I'd have to say that there is a substantial inconsistency between revenue collected and the standard of services provided.

    - An Irish person will now be born in an understaffed, dangerous, substandard Hospital, educated in a prefab, pay massive amounts of tax throughout their lifetime, including the newly invented 'novelty' taxes, before eventually dying in a corridor in another understaffed, dangerous, substandard Hospital.

    Well, at least that's not melodramatic and over-the-top, Mary-Lou.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Raiser wrote: »
    Based on logic, common sense and all the available evidence I'd have to say that there is a substantial inconsistency between revenue collected and the standard of services provided.
    I presume that by “logic, common sense and all the available evidence” you mean “opinion and anecdotes”? I know it’s cool to espouse the belief that everything about Ireland is ****e, but the reality is a bit more complex.
    Raiser wrote: »
    An Irish person will now be born in an understaffed, dangerous, substandard Hospital...
    Nonsense. By any objective measure, the Irish healthcare system compares quite favourably with others in the Western World.
    Raiser wrote: »
    ...educated in a prefab...
    That’s your one reasonable point in that post.
    Raiser wrote: »
    ...pay massive amounts of tax...
    There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that Irish people pay large amounts of tax. None. It’s just something that gets repeated so often that it’s just accepted as being fact. If anything, the amount of tax paid by Irish residents is actually below average – well below the Eurozone average in fact.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,888 ✭✭✭Terrontress


    djpbarry wrote: »
    There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that Irish people pay large amounts of tax. None. It’s just something that gets repeated so often that it’s just accepted as being fact. If anything, the amount of tax paid by Irish residents is actually below average – well below the Eurozone average in fact.

    I think it's the arbitrary nature of the taxation which has been an issue. This most recent property tax has been levied based on ownership for usage of services. The person using the services is not the one to pay. There are exemptions for properties owned by businesses and council properties simply because the government wants money off individuals but not councils or Nama.

    VRT has always been levied on a notional price, artificially keeping car prices high.

    Road tax has been messed and altered with so often that nobody knows whether a car will represent cheap or expensive motoring in the medium term.

    Credit and debit card duty is nonsensical as we move no toward a cash free society.

    On the other hand there are very generous tax concessions such as season tickets, shares, married couples allowances which again are quite random.

    Why not just stick the lot on income tax, VAT and cut everything else out? It would provide the fairest, simplest to implement and most transparent taxation.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    The person using the services is not the one to pay.
    But isn’t that what Ireland wants? “Free” education, “free” healthcare, etc. ?
    Why not just stick the lot on income tax, VAT and cut everything else out? It would provide the fairest, simplest to implement and most transparent taxation.
    I certainly would not argue against a simplification of the tax system, but I do think that part of that involves allowing local authorities to raise their own funding to some extent.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,888 ✭✭✭Terrontress


    djpbarry wrote: »
    The person using the services is not the one to pay.
    But isn’t that what Ireland wants? “Free” education, “free” healthcare, etc. ?
    Why not just stick the lot on income tax, VAT and cut everything else out? It would provide the fairest, simplest to implement and most transparent taxation.
    I certainly would not argue against a simplification of the tax system, but I do think that part of that involves allowing local authorities to raise their own funding to some extent.

    Free at the point of usage, yes, but of course it has to be paid for somewhere. Paid for with universal taxation in my, admittedly not thought out, model.

    I'd have a single rate of income tax, paid on all earnings over the tax-free threshold. VAT at a lower rate than today, maybe 20%, to stimulate consumption. Finally a local tax based on property value at a rate set by the local authority and those local authorities could tempt people to move to their area based on low tax or high services.

    Retain duty on alcohol, fuel, tobacco duties. Drop road tax to €100 for all cars to run the admin of licensing, drop road tolls, drop VRT, reduce house stamp duty to cover the costs but not to generate income. Drop tax efficient shares, drop season ticket tax relief, drop married couple relief, drop artist exemption entirely. Drop all tax benefits and loopholes. Local taxation to be paid on all houses which are occupied, regardless of who owns them.

    A first-class health and education system, both free at the point of usage. Roads maintained by NRA, centrally funded, or by the council, from local tax. Bin collection, fire brigade callout, libraries all paid for by the local taxation.

    And if we need more money to do this then up the income tax. If taxes are higher across the board then average net income reduces and then prices will drop to meet that.

    The end.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    "And if we need more money to do this then up the income tax. If taxes are higher across the board then average net income reduces and then prices will drop to meet that"

    - Aside from mistakenly thinking Paddy doesn't mind being taxed, there's a gaping hole in the economy that you would be left to fend for with your solution.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Free at the point of usage, yes, but of course it has to be paid for somewhere.
    Sure, but this is the great big problem in Ireland at the moment - people are demanding world class services, but don't want to pay for them. For example, these threads often bring up comparisons between Ireland and the UK, with all the "free" services available in the UK being listed (many of which are not actually "free", such as prescriptions and dental treatment, for example). But of course it's always overlooked that taxes in the UK are considerably higher than in Ireland, particularly for those on middle to lower incomes.
    Drop road tax to €100 for all cars to run the admin of licensing, drop road tolls, drop VRT...
    I wouldn't necessarily drop them all - I'd be more inclined to consolidate them all into a single tax on petrol. That way, what you pay is proportional to your road usage - can't get fairer than that*. And if you want to scrap season ticket tax relief, I'd offset that by increasing subsidies for public transport (which are pretty low in Ireland).

    * Cue cries of "but that's unfair to those in rural areas who are more car dependent".


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