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VRT and Paddy Spec Cars!

  • 27-04-2012 1:12am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,455 ✭✭✭


    Here I am tormenting myself I suppose. Looking at various car manufacturer websites and comparing and contrasting with what is on offer in the UK.

    It's bloody sickening! Did a bit of a compare and contrast with the new ford focus just for the devilment. The ford.ie site looks like it's on a diet! Don't need that engine! or those styling options!

    Was considering buying a new car but once again when I see the bloody difference between the markets my money is staying in my pocket!

    SD


«1

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 22,818 ✭✭✭✭Anan1


    Surely you can order a car here with the options you want?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,455 ✭✭✭StudentDad


    Anan1 wrote: »
    Surely you can order a car here with the options you want?

    Of course I can. However, the car I want is 'optional' here in VRT Paddy Land! and costs even more money! If there was no VRT I could go up north buy the car I want with more kit as standard and not have to deal with the retarded little protectionist bubble that is the car market in the republic.

    I compared the focus as available here and in the UK. Even allowing for currency variation you simply get a better equipped car in the UK market for the same money spent here!

    It is sickening! I am currently on the lookout for a new car but with the current VRT system in place that effectively crucifies new car buyers here in the republic, I won't be buying my new car here.

    SD


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,866 ✭✭✭✭MuppetCheck


    Ford specs are pretty similar between here and the UK. Which model/options are you looking for?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,455 ✭✭✭StudentDad


    Ford specs are pretty similar between here and the UK. Which model/options are you looking for?

    Pretty similar isn't good enough. The market here is separated away from the rest of Europe due to VRT. The EU is going to take Ireland to court if it doesn't change the law.

    If I go to my local car showroom - of whatever brand of car - as far as I am concerned I am a European and I expect to pay a European price. Not a 'local' price because of some pseudo nationalistic crap about national borders and 'local' market conditions.

    SD


  • Registered Users Posts: 22,818 ✭✭✭✭Anan1


    StudentDad wrote: »
    Of course I can. However, the car I want is 'optional' here in VRT Paddy Land! and costs even more money! If there was no VRT I could go up north buy the car I want with more kit as standard and not have to deal with the retarded little protectionist bubble that is the car market in the republic.

    I compared the focus as available here and in the UK. Even allowing for currency variation you simply get a better equipped car in the UK market for the same money spent here!

    It is sickening! I am currently on the lookout for a new car but with the current VRT system in place that effectively crucifies new car buyers here in the republic, I won't be buying my new car here.

    SD
    So your issue is with VRT, not specification?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,866 ✭✭✭✭MuppetCheck


    StudentDad wrote: »
    Pretty similar isn't good enough. The market here is separated away from the rest of Europe due to VRT. The EU is going to take Ireland to court if it doesn't change the law.

    If I go to my local car showroom - of whatever brand of car - as far as I am concerned I am a European and I expect to pay a European price. Not a 'local' price because of some pseudo nationalistic crap about national borders and 'local' market conditions.

    SD

    What has VRT to do with the specification of the vehicle?

    What are the specification differences you speak of?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,455 ✭✭✭StudentDad


    Anan1 wrote: »
    StudentDad wrote: »
    Of course I can. However, the car I want is 'optional' here in VRT Paddy Land! and costs even more money! If there was no VRT I could go up north buy the car I want with more kit as standard and not have to deal with the retarded little protectionist bubble that is the car market in the republic.

    I compared the focus as available here and in the UK. Even allowing for currency variation you simply get a better equipped car in the UK market for the same money spent here!

    It is sickening! I am currently on the lookout for a new car but with the current VRT system in place that effectively crucifies new car buyers here in the republic, I won't be buying my new car here.

    SD
    So your issue is with VRT, not specification?

    Both - in an effort to keep down cost due to insane taxes the dealers here are forced to offer a product that does not match the likes of UK etc. We are European, it should be an open market, VRT prevents this.

    SD


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,455 ✭✭✭StudentDad


    OSI wrote: »
    StudentDad wrote: »
    Pretty similar isn't good enough. The market here is separated away from the rest of Europe due to VRT. The EU is going to take Ireland to court if it doesn't change the law.

    If I go to my local car showroom - of whatever brand of car - as far as I am concerned I am a European and I expect to pay a European price. Not a 'local' price because of some pseudo nationalistic crap about national borders and 'local' market conditions.

    SD

    They've taken neither Ireland or the Netherlands to court over these taxes in the last 20 years, so I don't see why they would start now. Europe does not have control over our taxes yet, and I'm happy for it to stay that way.

    Well with a bit of luck they will take us to court - [url]HTTP://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0126/cars-business.html[/url]

    SD


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    VRT is not going away, but its true about spec. VW are mad ones for not including options, most car dealers even look at you funny when you ask to get a copy of the options brochure.

    Ive even had dealers lie to me saying the model they sold was the full spec or denying an option doesnt exist.


  • Registered Users Posts: 999 ✭✭✭Chriscl1


    Ford specs are pretty similar between here and the UK. Which model/options are you looking for?
    i was in the uk in march and spotted loads of titanium model mondeo's, smaxes and galaxies and all were very very nice looking machines, especially a few mondeo estate titanium x's that were about. ive only ever seen one smax titanium here. why is this, are they too expensive due to vrt on extras or are they a special order in ireland?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,455 ✭✭✭StudentDad


    VRT is not going away, but its true about spec. VW are mad ones for not including options, most car dealers even look at you funny when you ask to get a copy of the options brochure.

    Ive even had dealers lie to me saying the model they sold was the full spec or denying an option doesnt exist.

    What really pisses me off is that if you do decide to import a car from the UK or somewhere else in the Union the VRT charged on the car based on whatever arbitrary number pulled out of Revenues Left Armpit is as far as I can see designed not only to discourage anyone from importing a car from another member state but also to discourage anyone from importing a car that is a little bit different or equipped to a better level than anything else on the road.

    It's almost a kind of begrudgery. The sooner we have a proper EU-wide tax system the better. I've gone to visit friends in the UK over the years and they'll have a fairly standard - for the UK - car and not only is it cheaper than what's available over here it just has more kit as standard. Couple that with lower overall road tax and it makes me wonder what's the bloody point in buying a car in the republic at all?

    Between the depreciation, the initial tax outlay and the lousy specs compared to other member states, is it any wonder that car sales are dropping like a stone?

    SD


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,455 ✭✭✭StudentDad


    Chriscl1 wrote: »
    i was in the uk in march and spotted loads of titanium model mondeo's, smaxes and galaxies and all were very very nice looking machines, especially a few mondeo estate titanium x's that were about. ive only ever seen one smax titanium here. why is this, are they too expensive due to vrt on extras or are they a special order in ireland?

    It's a mystery - up there with the limited range of engines and the fact that for alot of makes of car - if you want a particular model you have no choice but to hop over to the UK and buy it there and import it - I swear it's like there is a civil servant in Dublin Castle whose only job is to 'remove' fun from Irish life. 'Oh that car is too nice, can't have that here in Ireland, better tax that out of existence.'

    SD


  • Registered Users Posts: 22,818 ✭✭✭✭Anan1


    StudentDad wrote: »
    Both - in an effort to keep down cost due to insane taxes the dealers here are forced to offer a product that does not match the likes of UK etc.
    Isn't it better for the consumer to have lower standard specs and then build the car that suits their needs?
    StudentDad wrote: »
    We are European, it should be an open market, VRT prevents this.

    SD
    We are an open market, VRT is a registration tax. Are you under the impression that VRT is unique to Ireland? Out of interest, what's the VRT rate on the Focus you were considering?


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,866 ✭✭✭✭MuppetCheck


    Chriscl1 wrote: »
    i was in the uk in march and spotted loads of titanium model mondeo's, smaxes and galaxies and all were very very nice looking machines, especially a few mondeo estate titanium x's that were about. ive only ever seen one smax titanium here. why is this, are they too expensive due to vrt on extras or are they a special order in ireland?

    Fairly common here, but rarer than the mainstream models. It takes a bit of searching to find the right one though;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,931 ✭✭✭✭challengemaster


    Anan1 wrote: »
    Isn't it better for the consumer to have lower standard specs and then build the car that suits their needs?
    Not for a higher cost in the first place
    We are an open market, VRT is a registration tax. Are you under the impression that VRT is unique to Ireland? Out of interest, what's the VRT rate on the Focus you were considering?

    VRT is a loophole import tax and everyone knows it tbh. It may not be unique to Ireland but just because we're not the only ones doing it, doesn't make it cool or fair either.

    An actual registration tax as implied by the name would be a flat rate, covering administration costs associated with registering a car, not based on the vehicles current OMSP, emissions and spec list


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,455 ✭✭✭StudentDad


    Anan1 wrote: »
    Isn't it better for the consumer to have lower standard specs and then build the car that suits their needs?

    Isn't it better for the consumer to have lower standard specs and then build the car that suits their needs? - Translation - Isn't it better to have a bog standard rubbish car that is bloody expensive to begin with and then to make it worth owning the buyer has to buy everything else as an expensive extra?

    VRT is a total distortion of the market and should be abolished.

    SD


  • Registered Users Posts: 22,818 ✭✭✭✭Anan1


    StudentDad wrote: »
    Isn't it better for the consumer to have lower standard specs and then build the car that suits their needs? - Translation - Isn't it better to have a bog standard rubbish car that is bloody expensive to begin with and then to make it worth owning the buyer has to buy everything else as an expensive extra?
    You're conflating two separate issues, price and specification.
    StudentDad wrote: »
    VRT is a total distortion of the market and should be abolished.

    SD
    How would you make up for the lost revenue?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,455 ✭✭✭StudentDad


    Anan1 wrote: »
    How would you make up for the lost revenue?

    A cut in TD's salaries perhaps? Maybe running the country properly for a change? Billions of EC funding that's been given to us over the years that seems to have vanished down a bloody big hole. Where did that money go? Junkets and parties perhaps?


    SD


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,842 ✭✭✭Soarer


    Anan1 wrote: »
    How would you make up for the lost revenue?

    Don't think they're losing too much revenue in this day and age.

    As for alternatives, what about a flat fee everytime the ownership of the car changes. So you sell your car, and you send the logbook to Shannon with a cheque for €150.
    Kinda like what they're trying to do swapping Stamp Duty with a property tax.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,520 ✭✭✭Tea 1000


    StudentDad wrote: »
    What really pisses me off is that if you do decide to import a car from the UK or somewhere else in the Union the VRT charged on the car based on whatever arbitrary number pulled out of Revenues Left Armpit is as far as I can see designed not only to discourage anyone from importing a car from another member state but also to discourage anyone from importing a car that is a little bit different or equipped to a better level than anything else on the road.

    It's almost a kind of begrudgery. The sooner we have a proper EU-wide tax system the better. I've gone to visit friends in the UK over the years and they'll have a fairly standard - for the UK - car and not only is it cheaper than what's available over here it just has more kit as standard. Couple that with lower overall road tax and it makes me wonder what's the bloody point in buying a car in the republic at all?

    Between the depreciation, the initial tax outlay and the lousy specs compared to other member states, is it any wonder that car sales are dropping like a stone?

    SD
    Ya, I really can't wait to be out of a job... I can console myself that cars are cheaper, but won't be able to afford them!!
    Can you specify what's the difference between a UK Focus and an Irish one? As far as I can see, the base level Focus 1.6 is the same crap spec in both countries.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 16,931 ✭✭✭✭challengemaster


    Anan1 wrote: »
    How would you make up for the lost revenue?

    The reason cars are more expensive over here in the first place is VRT, yes?

    Take that away, you can lower the selling price for better spec'd cars, and you'll get more buyers. People also won't outsource cars as much, therefore more money stays in the country.

    Same as with petrol prices - if you drop the price, people won't give as much of a damn how much they spend on petrol, rather than penny pinching when the price is very high, result = people drive more = people buy more petrol = more revenue.

    It'll even itself out in the long run, tbh.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 29,476 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana


    Soarer wrote: »
    Don't think they're losing too much revenue in this day and age.

    As for alternatives, what about a flat fee everytime the ownership of the car changes. So you sell your car, and you send the logbook to Shannon with a cheque for €150.
    Kinda like what they're trying to do swapping Stamp Duty with a property tax.
    Would the last person leaving the country please turn off the light.


  • Registered Users Posts: 22,818 ✭✭✭✭Anan1


    StudentDad wrote: »
    A cut in TD's salaries perhaps? Maybe running the country properly for a change? Billions of EC funding that's been given to us over the years that seems to have vanished down a bloody big hole. Where did that money go? Junkets and parties perhaps?


    SD
    None of the above has anything to do with VRT. If you reduce taxes then you have to cut services.
    The reason cars are more expensive over here in the first place is VRT, yes?

    Take that away, you can lower the selling price for better spec'd cars, and you'll get more buyers.
    Maybe. Or maybe, as happened in the UK for years, importers and dealers will absorb the difference. When we bought a new Alfa 156 in 1998, it was cheaper here including 25% VRT than in the UK. Better specified, too.;)
    People also won't outsource cars as much, therefore more money stays in the country.
    Did you forget that new cars are imported too?


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,931 ✭✭✭✭challengemaster


    Anan1 wrote: »
    Did you forget that new cars are imported too?

    Sort of meant down the line, as you'd have a plethora of non-paddy spec cars in the country at decent prices, so there'd be none of the "if you want a decent spec go to the UK and import"


  • Registered Users Posts: 22,818 ✭✭✭✭Anan1


    Sort of meant down the line, as you'd have a plethora of non-paddy spec cars in the country at decent prices, so there'd be none of the "if you want a decent spec go to the UK and import"
    I think this 'paddy spec' thing has more to do with Irish priorities than VRT. How is it that we can never afford xenons, heated seats, or decent audio and yet miraculously manage to find the cash for big wheels, sport packs and metallic paint?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,455 ✭✭✭StudentDad


    Anan1 wrote: »
    Sort of meant down the line, as you'd have a plethora of non-paddy spec cars in the country at decent prices, so there'd be none of the "if you want a decent spec go to the UK and import"
    I think this 'paddy spec' thing has more to do with Irish priorities than VRT. How is it that we can never afford xenons, heated seats, or decent audio and yet miraculously manage to find the cash for big wheels, sport packs and metallic paint?

    Oh get off the stage, the dog in the street knows that if this import tax was abolished the bubble that is the Irish car market would pop like a party balloon and Irish citizens would have access to the UK market, unfettered. God forbid that would happen!

    SD


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,259 ✭✭✭positron


    Apologies if this is a silly question - but what / who is the VRT protecting? There is absolutely no automobile manufacturing industry in Ireland, which is the type of thing you would normally 'protect' with 'import duties'?

    India for instance, charges 105% import duty on all cars built outside India, and naturally all big players have set up factories in India now, and with that comes thousands of jobs and general economic activity and prosperity, and lately manufacturing facilities in India is starting to become central facilities for these companies for South East Asia region.

    If VRT was removed, who would actually lost out other than a few car dealers? In fact, don't they stand to gain - cheaper cars, more sales?


  • Registered Users Posts: 22,818 ✭✭✭✭Anan1


    StudentDad wrote: »
    Oh get off the stage, the dog in the street knows that if this import tax was abolished the bubble that is the Irish car market would pop like a party balloon and Irish citizens would have access to the UK market, unfettered. God forbid that would happen!

    SD
    What does this even mean?:)


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,078 ✭✭✭pcardin


    Fairly common here, but rarer than the mainstream models. It takes a bit of searching to find the right one though;)

    I love your sentence. :D So afterall it isn't so fairly common here?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    StudentDad wrote: »
    What really pisses me off is that if you do decide to import a car from the UK or somewhere else in the Union the VRT charged on the car based on whatever arbitrary number pulled out of Revenues Left Armpit is as far as I can see designed not only to discourage anyone from importing a car from another member state but also to discourage anyone from importing a car that is a little bit different or equipped to a better level than anything else on the road.

    It's almost a kind of begrudgery. The sooner we have a proper EU-wide tax system the better. I've gone to visit friends in the UK over the years and they'll have a fairly standard - for the UK - car and not only is it cheaper than what's available over here it just has more kit as standard. Couple that with lower overall road tax and it makes me wonder what's the bloody point in buying a car in the republic at all?

    Between the depreciation, the initial tax outlay and the lousy specs compared to other member states, is it any wonder that car sales are dropping like a stone?

    SD

    the argument used to be 'well they pay council tax and their wages are lower' considering how its going, give it 2 years and that argument will be null


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