Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Laws Question? Ask here!

13839414344115

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,889 ✭✭✭tolosenc


    Pinged at the weekend over something that I'm unsure of. Do there have to be players from both teams there for it to be a ruck? There was none from my team (defence) and I thought that that meant that the ball was out, so went for it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,072 ✭✭✭Shelflife


    If it was originally a ruck and then all your team pull out , its still deemed to be a ruck.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,889 ✭✭✭tolosenc


    Thanks.

    Maybe an ELV. Would encourage players to roll away, and would speed up play as a result.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 812 ✭✭✭For Paws


    Downtime wrote: »
    Interesting question. If you go to ground you are a tackler and must release the tackled player. If you do not go to ground but bring that player to ground you are not obliged to release him as you are not a tackler so I would assume you can drag him into touch. I cant see anywhere where it says you cannot.


    Once a player in possession of the ball is brought to ground, the tackler (whether he is on his feet or not) must release him, and allow him to release / place the ball.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,537 ✭✭✭Downtime


    For Paws wrote: »
    Once a player in possession of the ball is brought to ground, the tackler (whether he is on his feet or not) must release him, and allow him to release / place the ball.

    I misread a piece of law an in my search saw 15.6 (c) Players in opposition to the ball carrier who remain on their feet who bring the ball carrier to ground so that the player is tackled must release the ball and the ball carrier. Those players may then play the ball providing they are on their feet and do so from behind the ball and from directly behind the tackled player or a tackler closest to those players’ goal line.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭daveharnett


    tolosenc wrote: »
    Pinged at the weekend over something that I'm unsure of. Do there have to be players from both teams there for it to be a ruck?
    Yes. If there are no defenders, then it's not a ruck, just a 'tackle area'.
    A ruck is a phase of play where one or more players from each team, who are on their feet, in physical contact, close around the ball on the ground. Open play has ended.
    Players are rucking when they are in a ruck and using their feet to try to win or keep possession of the ball, without being guilty of foul play.

    What you got pinged for (probably, I wasn't there :D)
    15.6
    (d) At a tackle or near to a tackle, other players who play the ball must do so from behind the ball and from directly behind the tackled player or the tackler closest to those players’ goal line.

    For those who don't speak IRB, that means the gate applies to the tackle area, even if there's no ruck. Tacklers are excepted - if they can get back on their feet before a ruck forms, they can jackal from any angle.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,889 ✭✭✭tolosenc


    So, not obliged to stay on my feet, as if diving on a loose ball, but just have to come through the gate?


  • Hosted Moderators Posts: 3,807 ✭✭✭castie


    tolosenc wrote: »
    So, not obliged to stay on my feet, as if diving on a loose ball, but just have to come through the gate?

    As soon as you make contact with them its a ruck so if the ball is loose on the ground you can dive.

    If theres someone between you and it so youll have to go through him then youll form a ruck in the process.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,208 ✭✭✭rje66


    castie wrote: »
    As soon as you make contact with them its a ruck so if the ball is loose on the ground you can dive.

    .

    be careful there as Law 16.4 e states , players must not fall on or over the ball as it is coming out of a ruck.

    I know its a greyish area. Is coming out of a ruck , it rolled 3inches past foot OR it squirted out at speed and stopped rolling 1 metre away.

    Laws want players in close proximity to rucks to stay on their feet.


  • Registered Users Posts: 666 ✭✭✭pigeonbutler


    Came across this one flicking through laws.

    (j) When a tackled player reaches out to ground the ball on or over the goal line to score a try, an opponent may pull the ball from the player’s possession, but must not kick or attempt to kick the ball.

    Sanction: Penalty Kick

    In what circumstances could this NOT be a penalty try?

    Surely in nearly all cases it's going to be a deliberate infringement, hence foul play and surely prevents a probably try, hence penalty try?


  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,961 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Surely in nearly all cases it's going to be a deliberate infringement, hence foul play and surely prevents a probably try, hence penalty try?

    Probably, but they're not going to make the sanction a penalty try in the laws, they'll leave it up to the ref.

    Its also a law that gets broken repeatedly yet goes unsanctioned.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,143 ✭✭✭locum-motion


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    ...Its also a law that gets broken repeatedly yet goes unsanctioned.

    Really? I don't think I've ever seen someone attempt to kick the ball out of the hands of a tackled player who is trying to place it over the line. I've seen players trying to dive in or slide in knees first to try to prevent the grounding, but not a kick or attempted kick.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,961 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Really? I don't think I've ever seen someone attempt to kick the ball out of the hands of a tackled player who is trying to place it over the line. I've seen players trying to dive in or slide in knees first to try to prevent the grounding, but not a kick or attempted kick.

    I've definitely seen sweepers running across the kicking the ball as someone else grounds it. At least I think I have....maybe I'm just losing my mind.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,143 ✭✭✭locum-motion


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    I've definitely seen sweepers running across the kicking the ball as someone else grounds it. At least I think I have....maybe I'm just losing my mind.

    Ah, but the law in question specifically refers to a tackled player trying to place the ball across the line, not any other form of grounding.
    As I said, I don't think I've ever seen anyone attempting to kick the ball in that situation.


  • Hosted Moderators Posts: 3,807 ✭✭✭castie


    rje66 wrote: »
    be careful there as Law 16.4 e states , players must not fall on or over the ball as it is coming out of a ruck.

    I know its a greyish area. Is coming out of a ruck , it rolled 3inches past foot OR it squirted out at speed and stopped rolling 1 metre away.

    Laws want players in close proximity to rucks to stay on their feet.

    It wasnt a ruck yet though until he is in physical contact with them.

    Raises a funny point though.

    If your standing just in front of the ball and a player of smaller height can reach in under your legs to get the ball without touching you it seems legal.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭daveharnett


    tolosenc wrote: »
    So, [after a tackle] not obliged to stay on my feet, as if diving on a loose ball, but just have to come through the gate?
    Nice idea, but no :D
    15.6 OTHER PLAYERS
    (a) After a tackle, all other players must be on their feet when they play the ball. Players are on their feet if no other part of their body is supported by the ground or players on the ground.
    Sanction: Penalty kick

    (e) Any player who gains possession of the ball at the tackle must play the ball immediately by moving away or passing or kicking the ball.
    Sanction: Penalty kick

    (f) Any player who first gains possession of the ball must not go to the ground at the tackle or near to it unless tackled by an opposition player.
    Sanction: Penalty kick
    Even if you didn't try to play the ball, I don't think a ref would take kindly to you sealing it off. As you can see from the extracts above, the motivation of the law is to keep players on their feet and give the ball every chance of getting away.

    link


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭daveharnett


    Came across this one flicking through laws.

    (j) When a tackled player reaches out to ground the ball on or over the goal line to score a try, an opponent may pull the ball from the player’s possession, but must not kick or attempt to kick the ball.

    Sanction: Penalty Kick

    In what circumstances could this NOT be a penalty try?

    Surely in nearly all cases it's going to be a deliberate infringement, hence foul play and surely prevents a probably try, hence penalty try?
    I've had it happen once. In the event, I gave a yellow card (it was dangerous) but not a PT.
    The attacker had been grounded, and was just starting to stretch (so the ball was maybe 1.5-2 feet from the line. There were 3/4 tacklers hanging off him, climbing over him, dragging on his arms and so on, to the point where you couldn't say that a try was probable but for the foul play.

    I could also imagine a scenario where a non-offending defender has planted himself on the line to prevent grounding, and a second defender kicks at the ball looking to prevent the subsequent 5m scrum. Again, no PT.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭daveharnett


    castie wrote: »
    If your standing just in front of the ball and a player of smaller height can reach in under your legs to get the ball without touching you it seems legal.
    Seems legit. Since there's no ruck, I suppose the smaller player isn't obliged to bind when he arrives at the gate, and is entitled to play the ball. I imagine the bigger player might have other ideas mind!


  • Hosted Moderators Posts: 3,807 ✭✭✭castie


    If in a game I tell a SH or someone else to use the ball. (Whether it is a scrum/ruck)
    If he does not use it its a scrum to the opposite team in my book.
    Its not something I have a law quote to back up though.

    Have seen Poite do the opposite this evening.

    Thoughts?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,072 ✭✭✭Shelflife


    castie wrote: »
    If in a game I tell a SH or someone else to use the ball. (Whether it is a scrum/ruck)
    If he does not use it its a scrum to the opposite team in my book.
    Its not something I have a law quote to back up though.

    Have seen Poite do the opposite this evening.

    Thoughts?
    There's no obligation on a team to play the ball at a scrum or a ruck.
    The ref telling them to use it is wrong!


  • Advertisement
  • Hosted Moderators Posts: 3,807 ✭✭✭castie


    Shelflife wrote: »
    There's no obligation on a team to play the ball at a scrum or a ruck.
    The ref telling them to use it is wrong!

    Every International ref does it...


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,072 ✭✭✭Shelflife


    castie wrote: »
    Shelflife wrote: »
    There's no obligation on a team to play the ball at a scrum or a ruck.
    The ref telling them to use it is wrong!

    Every International ref does it...

    I know, it does my head in .

    It's just their way of trying to get the ball moving and out if the scrum esp if the scrums are messy.
    If the ball is not played its either a reset or the ref should penalise one of the teams.

    At ruck time the ball is live and if a team wanted they could leave the ball there as long as they want.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,599 Mod ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    Is it legal to pull on an opposition players scrum cap so that it comes down and covers their eyes during a ruck?

    I saw it a couple of times in Ulster Edinburgh yesterday and complained to a friend sitting next to me but he said that it wasn't at all illegal. I reckoned that there was no law about it but I thought it would be covered by poor sportsmanship.


  • Hosted Moderators Posts: 3,807 ✭✭✭castie


    Is it legal to pull on an opposition players scrum cap so that it comes down and covers their eyes during a ruck?

    I saw it a couple of times in Ulster Edinburgh yesterday and complained to a friend sitting next to me but he said that it wasn't at all illegal. I reckoned that there was no law about it but I thought it would be covered by poor sportsmanship.

    Pulling at a scrum cap I would put at the same level as pulling someones hair.
    Tackling someone by the hair is illegal and so will be by the scrum cap.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭daveharnett


    castie wrote: »
    If in a game I tell a SH or someone else to use the ball. (Whether it is a scrum/ruck)
    If he does not use it its a scrum to the opposite team in my book.
    Its not something I have a law quote to back up though.

    Have seen Poite do the opposite this evening.

    Thoughts?
    Since the ref has no mandate to dictate when the ball should emerge from a scrum/ruck/maul (unless we're talking about extreme time-wasting), the only time he should advise a team to "use it" is when it is good advice - he is about to award against them unless the ball moves. This could apply when a maul has stopped progressing, or a scrum is rotating toward 90 degrees.

    It certainly shouldn't be happening when the front of a scrum has gone down (or up) and he ought to be stopping for safety.

    I was surprised at the unenforced 'use it' from Poite yesterday. He is, for all his limitations, better than most at the scrum, and attempting to bluff a scrumhalf is never a good idea.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭daveharnett


    I saw it a couple of times in Ulster Edinburgh yesterday and complained to a friend sitting next to me but he said that it wasn't at all illegal. I reckoned that there was no law about it but I thought it would be covered by poor sportsmanship.
    Definitely. It's the kind of niggle that got overlooked in both semis over the weekend.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,072 ✭✭✭Shelflife


    I would look at interference with the scrum cap as foul play, and any player pulling a scrum cap off i would be looking at a min of a yellow.

    Imo rippling a scrum cap off is very dangerous, tipping it down over his eyes is just acting the boll ix and i would penalise it as well.

    Another thing that bugs me is this clapping an opponent on the back when they give away a pen, all it does is antagonise people. Id be having a word and then reversing a pen if it continued.


  • Hosted Moderators Posts: 3,807 ✭✭✭castie


    Shelflife wrote: »
    I would look at interference with the scrum cap as foul play, and any player pulling a scrum cap off i would be looking at a min of a yellow.

    Imo rippling a scrum cap off is very dangerous, tipping it down over his eyes is just acting the boll ix and i would penalise it as well.

    Another thing that bugs me is this clapping an opponent on the back when they give away a pen, all it does is antagonise people. Id be having a word and then reversing a pen if it continued.

    To be fair alot of times you see people ending up in head locks when being tackled. (BOD gave one)

    Its just as easy to rip the scrumcap off by the player trying to get out of a tight position than the tackler trying to rip it off on purpose.

    Agree if someone gets tackled by the scrumcap then its a penalty and should be treated exactly like pulling on someones hair.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,409 ✭✭✭Captain_Generic


    Was playing football yesterday and to my surprise calling for the ball when the opposition has it is a bookable offence. Is it the same in rugby? Pretty sure I do it all the time when tracking back


  • Advertisement
  • Hosted Moderators Posts: 3,807 ✭✭✭castie


    Was playing football yesterday and to my surprise calling for the ball when the opposition has it is a bookable offence. Is it the same in rugby? Pretty sure I do it all the time when tracking back

    Unsportsman like conduct I believe would cover this.


Advertisement