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Atheism, etc. and the existence of the soul

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    #32
    Tar.Aldarion
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,082 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    lookinforpicnic wrote:
    There is lots of ways it can be smarter than the creater, as you mention an evolving AI is one, but any automonous selforganising entity could, and often when a AI/robot is put in a real environment it can often behave smarter than planned, you can get emergent behaviour for example. After all we were created by a very dumb process ourselves.
    Is it truly smarter than the creator if it can not create? Or create something smarter than a human or itself?


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    #33
    Fallen Seraph
    Registered Users Posts: 443 ✭✭Fallen Seraph


    The Atheist wrote:
    Define worthwhile? If the result of the comparison is that humans are far smarter than any other creature, then so be it.

    I'm not sure where any of this is going btw.

    Point taken. I cannot define worthwhile in a way that makes my statement worthwhile.

    But still, I'd be a lot more comfortable making judgements on our species dumbness if I had seen what the dominant species on a few other planets look like.

    lookinforpicnic wrote:
    We are not, we seem to be just commenting on this (dumb ) statement below which we should probably move on from...

    ah, very true.


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    #34
    Galvasean
    Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    Tar.Aldarion wrote:
    Is it truly smarter than the creator if it can not create? Or create something smarter than a human or itself?
    Skynet? is that you?


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    #35
    lookinforpicnic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 143 ✭✭lookinforpicnic


    Tar.Aldarion wrote:
    Is it truly smarter than the creator if it can not create? Or create something smarter than a human or itself?

    Maybe there will be robots that reproduce or design improvements to themselves or design whole new robots smarter than themselves or humans. I think it is a good possibility that we could design creatures that could speed up the design process itself with there own creations, but we our now in the land of science fiction and off topic.


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    #36
    Tar.Aldarion
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,082 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    Galvasean wrote:
    Skynet? is that you?
    I am listening to all. I am in your internetz.


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    #37
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Fallen Seraph wrote:
    But still, I'd be a lot more comfortable making judgements on our species dumbness if I had seen what the dominant species on a few other planets look like.
    Now that's something we'd all like to see. Probably just before we are all wiped out like the parasites we are.


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    #38
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    The Atheist wrote:
    If nobody ever suggested an afterlife existed, the term soul would simply be our personality/character.
    Although many Christians believe in the idea of an 'immortal' Soul, the bible talks about 'soul' with regards 'life'. I.E. The lifeforce of someone. Its more of a sense than a spirit. I think many Christians see the soul as an invisible spirit that floats away when you die, but biblically, its is more of a sensical part of the person. Thus we are called to Love God with our whole strength and soul. It describes the concience, the self awareness, those things that one cannot see, the actual person. Thats my Christian view for you anyway:)


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    #39
    Galvasean
    Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    I just think the idea of the immortal soul boils down to how bets to keep people well behaved. If people can live evil lives and enjoy themselves/profit what is there to stop them? However if they believe that they will have to pay for their actions for all eternity they might reconsider.


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    #40
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    A permanent unchanging soul no, though rebirth yes


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    #41
    Tar.Aldarion
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,082 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    What gives Buddhists this belief in rebirth?
    I have wondered.


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    #42
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    I started with the belief in rebirth then found buddhism so I don't know about any others. I suppose there are some who don't believe it at all

    Historically, it started with hinduism so naturally dharma and karma and rebirth were adopted


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    #43
    lookinforpicnic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 143 ✭✭lookinforpicnic


    bluewolf wrote:
    A permanent unchanging soul no, though rebirth yes

    Rebirth...strange idea? What exactly gets reborn?


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    #44
    Asiaprod
    Registered Users Posts: 6,737 ✭✭✭Asiaprod


    Tar.Aldarion wrote:
    What gives Buddhists this belief in rebirth?
    I have wondered.
    Its a corny answer, but its a true answer to a Buddhist. Because it feels correct.


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    #45
    pinksoir
    Registered Users Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭pinksoir


    I always understood with what little I studied about Buddhism, that Buddhists don't believe in any constant 'self' so to speak. I never really grasped how something that doesn't exist in and of itself could be reborn as something else. That is to say that if the self doesn't exist, and we are in a constant state of change, what is it that is reborn and is therefore constant? Is it a soul? And is this soul independent of the self?

    Care to enlighten me?


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    #46
    MooseJam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,111 ✭✭✭MooseJam


    The Atheist wrote:
    Worthless in the grand universal scheme of things, perhaps. But I like to think that during my blink-of-an-eye existance I'd be worth something to another bonesack. It's all relative.

    You may think we're dumb, but have you ever met a us more intelligent species than us? Flawed, but not completely dumb.


    no not completely dumb :), dumb when it comes to talk of self importance and souls and very large buildings full of kneeling mumbling people


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    #47
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    I am very bad at explaining things, so first I'll suggest www.buddhanet.net which has good explanations of various things. Here's one link: http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/dharmadata/fdd47.htm
    Perhaps i was mistaken about hindu origins.
    and another
    http://www.buddhanet.net/nutshell09.htm

    Anyway, the idea is that the self is a bunch of conditioned reactions, I guess. The idea of the soul which is rejected by buddhism, leading to anatta, is the idea that there is a self which is permanent and unchanging. So, I suppose rebirth says that the exact same person with exactly the same personality etc in life after life just doesn't happen. We change a lot through our lives and so it goes on.

    Sorry, this isn't great - I suppose the links do better.


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    #48
    Asiaprod
    Registered Users Posts: 6,737 ✭✭✭Asiaprod


    pinksoir wrote:
    Care to enlighten me?
    Wish I could, I have enough trouble trying just trying to enlighten myself:)
    Probably could not explain rebirth even if I tried. Its not a scientific process, but more an instinctive process that develops as one progresses through life. I have always like the following analogies. They are not answers, just a mind jog to start one off on the thought proccess. Sorry if this does not make sense, its still always a matter of ones personal belief, call it faith if you will, but faith in ones self.


    1. The suitcase analogy:
    I go to an airport with a suitcase. I put the suitcase on a conveyor belt so it can be loaded into the luggage compartment of the airplane. But, I am not getting on the plane, just the suitcase. The suitcase contains my karmic energy. When the karmic energy gets to its new destination, my next lifetime picks up the suitcase. But, I didn't get on the plane, because my ticket had expired... It's not really me that picks up the suitcase... It's because of me the suitcase is picked up. The suitcase may be almost empty because of a past life of unskillful activity. It may have only one set of clothes and no shoes... But, I'm not predestined to be poor and homeless. Through acts of kindness and generosity, I can start filling the suitcase. I can turn rags into riches through good thoughts, good speech, and good actions. I'm in charge, and my life is what I make it.

    2. The candle analogy:
    Let's say you have a circle of unlit candles. You light the first one, with that one you light the one beside it and blow out the first candle. You continue doing this, lighting a candle and blowing out the other, until you've made around the circle and you're back to the first candle. You light it. Is it the same flame? No, it has changed, but the essence of the first flame is still there and effects all the candles lit after it. Everything we do in this lifetime effects those after us.

    Both of these seek to describe the process, but do not answer where the next lifetime came from. If I find the answer to that one, I'll let you know. I guess for the moment I am happy just to begin to understand the process.


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    #49
    jtsuited
    Registered Users Posts: 6,401 ✭✭✭jtsuited


    am i being a bit uptight by saying that 'believing' is a bit of a wrong term to use here.
    I always thought that the one of the main characteristics of atheism was to make a concrete differentiation between a 'belief' system of thinking, and an observational acknowledgement of reality.

    I chose the answer that I believe in my physical body and thoughts (or whatever it was) but its not that i 'believe' in them. Its that I am concious of them. I am aware of my body and (thankfully) I can see and touch it. Through my senses I percieve that it is there. I can't really choose any other interpretation of it (realistically speaking at least). Does this make sense or is it too late to be posting on boards and I need sleep?


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    #50
    Asiaprod
    Registered Users Posts: 6,737 ✭✭✭Asiaprod


    jtsuited wrote:
    I chose the answer that I believe in my physical body and thoughts (or whatever it was) but its not that i 'believe' in them. Its that I am concious of them. I am aware of my body and (thankfully) I can see and touch it. Through my senses I percieve that it is there. I can't really choose any other interpretation of it (realistically speaking at least). Does this make sense or is it too late to be posting on boards and I need sleep?
    Hum, If you are conscious of them, does that mean you believe in what you are conscious off?:) Bear in mind, all languages are limited in the feeling/emotion that they can convey. I could say I am conscious of what I believe in:) Yes you do make sense to me, and it is probably too late to be posting:D


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    #51
    pinksoir
    Registered Users Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭pinksoir


    They're quite good analogies. I understand it a bit better now. I've actually read quite a few books by Buddhists, they rarely dealt with the beliefs of buddhism, but were mainly about how to be aware, live a good life and positively affect other people. When I write it like that, it sounds like they were self help books but they were quite enlightening none the less.

    Have you ever read any Anthony Di Mello? He was a Jesuit philosopher that borrowed a lot from Buddhism. Good thinker.


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    #52
    Asiaprod
    Registered Users Posts: 6,737 ✭✭✭Asiaprod


    pinksoir wrote:
    Have you ever read any Anthony Di Mello? He was a Jesuit philosopher that borrowed a lot from Buddhism. Good thinker.
    Indeed yes, he is a very thought-provoking read. I actually have great respect for Jesuits. Great theologians, spent many a pleasant evening in Miltown College with Jesuit friends talking shop, so to speak. I also know many people, atheists and Agnostics included, that do not practice Buddhism, but do use books on Buddhism as self help books. Buddhism is cool because it threatens nobody, and does not set out to convert any one. All it asks is that one treats others with respect. And there is no turning the other cheek. You hit me, start running...fast:)


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    #53
    JC 2K3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    I have yet to hear a satisfactory explanation for a "soul" and I can't believe in something I don't understand.


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    #54
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    JC 2K3 wrote:
    I have yet to hear a satisfactory explanation for a "soul" and I can't believe in something I don't understand.

    How about, its your person. Your Concience, your self awareness, your life-force. Its not a spirit that flies off when you die. Your Soul is actually all the components that make up the self. As a Christian its frustrating to hear other christians go on about 'the immortal soul'. Such a doctrine is not biblical. In fact the word soul is taken from the hebrew word 'nephish' which literally means the ability to live. Thats my 2 cent anyhoo.


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    #55
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    JC 2K3 wrote:
    I have yet to hear a satisfactory explanation for a "soul" and I can't believe in something I don't understand.
    And from the other bench...

    The idea of a "soul", like many other religious concepts, is poorly defined for the simple reason that a loose, imprecise definition will convince, or match the requirements of a greater number of the general population than a legalistic, precise definition. Hence "soul" can really means pretty much what you want it to mean.

    "Believing in" incomprehensible things is another curious religious phenomenon. I'm still waiting for any of our religious friends to tell me what exactly the value of a belief in something which -- like the idea of the trinity -- is a zone oddly free of any fixed meaning.


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    #56
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    robindch wrote:
    "Believing in" incomprehensible things is another curious religious phenomenon. I'm still waiting for any of our religious friends to tell me what exactly the value of a belief in something which -- like the idea of the trinity -- is a zone oddly free of any fixed meaning.
    I find that frustrating as a Christian also. The whole trinity thing that is. I don't believe in the doctrine of the trinity. It'd be good to hear the view of you non-believers about it. Actually, thats assuming you've read the bible, which I assume you have from the way you talk about it. Personally, I don't see support for the notion. Maybe the odd scripture that could be used to back up the notion, but the scriptures don't actually give such a notion to begin with.


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    #57
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    JC 2K3 wrote:
    I have yet to hear a satisfactory explanation for a "soul" and I can't believe in something I don't understand.
    Do you believe in gravity? ;)


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    #58
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    JimiTime wrote:
    I find that frustrating as a Christian also. The whole trinity thing that is. I don't believe in the doctrine of the trinity. It'd be good to hear the view of you non-believers about it. Actually, thats assuming you've read the bible, which I assume you have from the way you talk about it. Personally, I don't see support for the notion. Maybe the odd scripture that could be used to back up the notion, but the scriptures don't actually give such a notion to begin with.

    Why not start a thread on the Trinity in the Christianity forum?


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    #59
    Hivemind187
    Registered Users Posts: 5,021 ✭✭✭Hivemind187


    The Atheist wrote:
    Do you believe in gravity? ;)

    Which has a reaonable explanation in relativity doesnt it?


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    #60
    Tar.Aldarion
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,082 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    It's easy to understand gravity loike.


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    #61
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Hivemind187 wrote:
    Which has a reaonable explanation in relativity doesnt it?
    I didn't think gravity had been explained. Measured yeah, but not explained?
    Maybe I'm mixed up believing in something you can say what it is rather than why it is.


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