Hourly rate TEFL?

cavanmaniac · 30-09-2009 1:24pm #1

Quick question...is €15 per hour a typical hourly rate for TEFL teaching in Ireland?

I've seen the occasional job advertisement at this rate recently, so it'd work out that for teaching maybe four x 1 hour-long classes a day for five days a week, you'd earn €300 a week? Before tax, if applicable?

Um...is that not totally pathetic? Is that the going rate out there? I know jobs are scarce but you'd get almost as much on social welfare for doing nothing! :eek:

madziuda · 30-09-2009 9:53pm

Depending on your experience and the type of course you teach (Cambridge exams, business, general English) you'd normally get between €15 and €25 per hour. €20/hour would probably be the most common rate....

that said, the demand for TEFL classes in Ireland has significantly decreased (global crisis, swine flu, Eastern European migrants going back home) so, obviously, we can also expect a drop in TEFL teachers' wages

cavanmaniac · 01-10-2009 12:00am

Yes I guess I realised it was never a big earner especially here in Ireland but those rates put it right down at the buttons level which I didn't expect. I'd have thought 20-25ph was more usual if primary and secondary teaching is at 40ish levels.

You would, literally, be as well off on the dole. But that's life I suppose.

lauralee28 · 01-10-2009 1:54pm

cavanmaniac wrote: »

Yes I guess I realised it was never a big earner especially here in Ireland but those rates put it right down at the buttons level which I didn't expect. I'd have thought 20-25ph was more usual if primary and secondary teaching is at 40ish levels.

You would, literally, be as well off on the dole. But that's life I suppose.

With all due respect, you cant measure the rate of your pay against that of a primary/secondary teacher. There is a huge difference and it is not nearly the same thing! A person can qualify as a TEFL teacher in 6 weeks! I think the €300 you're talking about is more than adequate.

TweetyPie1 · 01-10-2009 2:05pm

"You would, literally, be as well off on the dole."

You're talking about earning €300 a week for working 20 hrs - hardly comparable to being on the dole...
Try working in a min wage crappy job n then cry you'd b better off on the dole... Some people just don't have a clue....

lauralee28 · 01-10-2009 2:12pm

TweetyPie1 wrote: »

"You would, literally, be as well off on the dole."

You're talking about earning €300 a week for working 20 hrs - hardly comparable to being on the dole...
Try working in a min wage crappy job n then cry you'd b better off on the dole... Some people just don't have a clue....

Well said!

Ginkgo · 01-10-2009 5:31pm

The 20 hours is contact time. What about lesson planning? How many hours do you add on for that? I would have thought that inexperienced/recently qualified teachers would need to put a lot of time into preparation before facing a class of students. So would you be talking about 40 hours work for 20 hours contact time? So what's the effective hourly rate?

pathway33 · 01-10-2009 5:57pm

Ginkgo wrote: »

So what's the effective hourly rate?

€7.50 per hour. Not even minimum wage (unless it's been reduced and I haven't heard). Probably no holiday pay either, so you reduce that further. Bus fares/petrol. Lunch money. After work drinks.

Yes definitely better off on the dole

implausible · 01-10-2009 6:49pm

Ginkgo wrote: »

The 20 hours is contact time. What about lesson planning? How many hours do you add on for that?

as is the 22 hours for secondary teachers! The part-time rate includes holiday pay. Nobody every works that one out.

You can't compare the two.

cavanmaniac · 01-10-2009 8:21pm

I wasn't implying the two should be paid at the same rate by any means but it's still instructive to note how the salary gulf outstrips the disparity between the two modes of teaching, in my opinion. And while the qualification process is clearly much simpler for TEFL, you do still need a degree in practically all cases which isn't awarded after six weeks I don't think. Also, students are students, and a classroom is a classroom. Smaller classes make a huge difference I will admit, but it's still teaching. There are fly-by-night operations out there of course, I'm talking about proper schools and proper teaching.

I'd have thought a basic rate of €25 per hour was fair for TEFL; at €300 per week for the 20 contact hours plus the preparation time etc., which brings it up into the range of full-time hours, you're only €95 per week better off than on the top rate of dole which you get for doing nothing. Some experts might reckon that reasoning amounts to not having a clue but it still looks a raw deal from where I'm sitting anyway. All just my opinion like.

lauralee28 · 01-10-2009 9:45pm

cavanmaniac wrote: »

I wasn't implying the two should be paid at the same rate by any means but it's still instructive to note how the salary gulf outstrips the disparity between the two modes of teaching, in my opinion. And while the qualification process is clearly much simpler for TEFL, you do still need a degree in practically all cases which isn't awarded after six weeks I don't think. Also, students are students, and a classroom is a classroom. Smaller classes make a huge difference I will admit, but it's still teaching. There are fly-by-night operations out there of course, I'm talking about proper schools and proper teaching.

I'd have thought a basic rate of €25 per hour was fair for TEFL; at €300 per week for the 20 contact hours plus the preparation time etc., which brings it up into the range of full-time hours, you're only €95 per week better off than on the top rate of dole which you get for doing nothing. Some experts might reckon that reasoning amounts to not having a clue but it still looks a raw deal from where I'm sitting anyway. All just my opinion like.

Would you not prefer to be out working/gaining experience every week for the extra €95 you wouldn't get on the dole?
Of course there is a huge salary gulf in the two modes of teaching because there is a huge difference in preparing students for Leaving Cert exams and teaching english as a foreign language. It is by no means "nearly" the same thing.
As a teacher, I have 22 hours contact time with my classes, add another 22 on top of that for the extra cirricular, preparation, corrections etc........
Anyone I know who teaches TEFL does not have a degree in it as you say, I didn't even know you could obtain a degree in TEFL?! What I do know however, and if you look online, many educational institutions run courses which will qualify you to teach TEFL, these can range from 6 to 10 week courses.
The teachers in my school who teach TEFL, have obtained their qualification in TEFL in this way.
In the current economic climate, I dont think you're getting a raw deal at all.

cavanmaniac · 02-10-2009 12:09am

lauralee28 wrote: »

Would you not prefer to be out working/gaining experience every week for the extra €95 you wouldn't get on the dole?

Short answer, no. I'm speaking hypothetically but I would look on the time investment for the €300 as the equivalent of working a full-time, demanding job for peanuts. I could do something else with only slightly better earnings and work half the time involved, and use the rest productively. I'm all for people working but if people accept crap pay for full-time, dressed in part-time clothes, more fool them. The experience here would be mostly bitter I fear.

lauralee28 wrote: »

Of course there is a huge salary gulf in the two modes of teaching because there is a huge difference in preparing students for Leaving Cert exams and teaching english as a foreign language. It is by no means "nearly" the same thing.

I agree but I think a difference of €20 ph would adequately reflect the difference you outline. And it's not just about recognising the difference, it's about earning a living wage and an honest day's pay for an honest day's work.

lauralee28 wrote: »

As a teacher, I have 22 hours contact time with my classes, add another 22 on top of that for the extra cirricular, preparation, corrections etc........
Anyone I know who teaches TEFL does not have a degree in it as you say, I didn't even know you could obtain a degree in TEFL?! What I do know however, and if you look online, many educational institutions run courses which will qualify you to teach TEFL, these can range from 6 to 10 week courses.
The teachers in my school who teach TEFL, have obtained their qualification in TEFL in this way.
In the current economic climate, I dont think you're getting a raw deal at all.

Just as there are different kinds of teachers (dedicated, hard-working, diligent versus lazy, uninspired and unprepared) there are different kinds of TEFL schools - the proper ones and those that take in anyone as long as they look Western and can speak English.
In a properly regulated and official language school, 25 contact hours per week is the norm though and you prepare, correct and partake in probably way more extra curricular activities (summer schools offer weekly trips, activities etc.) than in an Irish public school.
When I mentioned degree, I was referring to the fact that you are not admitted to take a 4/6 week TEFL course, without having a degree and providing proof of it. This doesn't have to be in TEFL itself but for the proper, recognised qualifications, everyone has a good standard of education. Plus, there are HDip and MA qualifications in TEFL offered at Irish universities and all over the world for those who want to forge a long-term career in the area. It's a huge industry and high standards are expected for the decent jobs.
And €15 ph is not a decent job, in any climate. Full-time work, part-time pay that for all intents and purposes is below minimum wage. You have to offset the admittedly bleak economic situation and need to work with being screwed by a greedy employer who almost certainly charges multiples of that rate to the student you'll teach. It'd be different if you were paid for both contact hours plus preparation etc, then you're looking at a wage that reflects your input and effort. Not a King's ransom by any means, but a truer reflection. You'd spend that extra €95 on travel/petrol or whatever every week anyway.
It's not my job, by the way, the original post was just to ascertain if this was typical in Ireland by way of curiousity more than anything else.

Tristram · 02-10-2009 6:58am

TEFL in Ireland is a bit of a lame duck.

madziuda · 02-10-2009 12:30pm

lauralee28 wrote: »

Anyone I know who teaches TEFL does not have a degree in it as you say, I didn't even know you could obtain a degree in TEFL?!

You'd be surprised how many people now have degrees in TESOL/TEFL. I have a Master's in TEFL and English Studies, been teaching English as a foreign language full time for the last 5 years and intend to make it a life-long career.

That said, anyone who is serious about working in TEFL long term and has done proper research in the job market will know that this is if not impossible then incredibly difficult to do in Ireland. It's an English speaking country, so the demand for TEFL classes is relatively low during the academic year. It spikes during the summer what with all sorts of summer camps and all, but that's just 3 months out of 12 when you can count on decent hours and wages.

3 years ago the situation was different - people from Central and Eastern Europe were coming in droves to Ireland, enrolling their children in Irish schools - this created the post of a Language Support teacher paid according to VEC or Teaching Council rates and formally on a par with 'regular' teachers. Now that the Irish economy is decilining and the Polish one is growing strong, non Irish national students are coming back home and LS teachers' hours are severly cut, so ESL teachers have to look to language schools for employment.

As for the idea that teaching ESL is a Mickey Mouse job - I truly resent that. I am not saying that it is more difficult or even as difficult as teaching History/Irish/Home Ec/whatever in a public school. It is just different. But equally as demanding. With many specilaised courses you have no curriculum with clear guidelines to follow - you have to think it all up from scratch, you actually have to WRITE the curriculum, adapt textbooks, prepare your own materials etc. A LOT of time goes into planning, try teaching a group of beginners with no knowledge of English whatsoever some 'abstract' vocabulary (friendship, knowledge etc) through the medium of English only. Trust me, you'll spend a good while figuring out how best to explain that.
There's a good deal of paperwork included as well, especially with students preparing for Cambridge exams and those with visas depending on their language course

And if you think it's not a responsible job, think again. You're teaching somebody who has emigrated to Ireland becasue they or their parents couldn't find a job in their own country - their further education, their livelihood, their ability to integrate into the society and to make social bonds all depend on their proficiency in the English language. In other words, on the subject you're teaching. It's not all about teaching spoiled rich kids whose parents' fancy was to send them on a language course to Ireland.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining about the wages, hell, I think 15-20 euro per hour is way better than the dole as long as I do have a job.
But I take exception to people thinking that just because I'm in TEFL I'm any less of a teacher.

Coming back to the prestige and qualifications for a second. I'm currently working in Poland - one of the biggest European recipients of Native Speaking ELT teachers. My school is the second biggest language school in the country, so by no means an obscure employer. So far all teachers with ACELS applying for a job with us have been rejected in favour of CELTA or MA qualified ones. All teachers have degrees, most of us a Master's, and those whose degrees are not in TEFL have a CELTA and considerable teaching experience behind the belt. The whole 'qualifications in 6 weeks, no specialised degree' thing is just an Irish/British thing. And perfectly understandable seeing as in English-speaking countries TEFL has always been meant as a predominatly part-time/temporary thing

cavanmaniac · 02-10-2009 5:21pm

madziuda wrote: »

So far all teachers with ACELS applying for a job with us have been rejected in favour of CELTA or MA qualified ones. All teachers have degrees, most of us a Master's, and those whose degrees are not in TEFL have a CELTA and considerable teaching experience behind the belt.

Crikey, that's a bit worrying. You're obviously at a very good school though, hopefully the Acels will stand up elsewhere in Poland/other countries without too much of a trade-off in the standard of place you might be working. I am looking at European destinations myself and that's certainly an eye-opener!

peanuthead · 02-10-2009 7:08pm

pathway33 wrote: »

€7.50 per hour. Not even minimum wage (unless it's been reduced and I haven't heard). Probably no holiday pay either, so you reduce that further. Bus fares/petrol. Lunch money. After work drinks.

Yes definitely better off on the dole

If that's you're attitude ... I don't know whether or not its the dole, but you would be better off somewhere else for sure.

Teaching is something someone should do for the love of it, not because they all of a sudden can't find work and have decided "Hey, I can speak English, I'll be a TEFL teacher"

And FYI it's not even called TEFL anymore, it's TESOL.

OP is obviously hopping on the 'teach English' bandwagon, and I can tell you something if you think you can waltz in somewhere and start teaching English to a group of people when you don't know your own language INSIDE OUT you're wrong, because (1) they will know, they're foreign, not stupid and (2) it will make you hate the job.

There is not a huge amount of planning to TESOL. Classes should be relaxed and real, a bit of speaking, listening, talking, writing, grammar.

If you want to work in TESOL or Primary/secondary teaching for that matter for the money - you're barking up the wrong tree!!!

OP I don't mean to sound rude, I don't have the time to edit this as I'm heading out. If you're serious about tesol PM me and I can give you tips, but I wouldnt bother if you're just in it for the money!

madziuda · 02-10-2009 7:24pm

+1 to most of your points, peanuthead, but

peanuthead wrote: »

And FYI it's not even called TEFL anymore, it's TESOL.

Not really, both terms are equally valid

TEFL means Teaching English as a Foreign Language, TESOL is Teaching English to Students of Other Languages
You will also see people referring to it as (T)ESL teaching English as a Second Language (this, however, involves a slightly different approach/methodology than standard TEFL)

peanuthead wrote: »

There is not a huge amount of planning to TESOL. Classes should be relaxed and real, a bit of speaking, listening, talking, writing, grammar.

You're right but, paradoxically, making your classes real and relaxed requires a good deal of planning as well, sometimes more than if you were going for a strictly academic approach

And yeah, going into teaching for money only is pointless and potentially harmful to your students. That said, let's be honest, financial reward is important. A motivated teacher will generally be more efficient and more dedicated to what he/she is doing

cavanmaniac · 02-10-2009 8:25pm

peanuthead wrote: »

If that's you're attitude ... I don't know whether or not its the dole, but you would be better off somewhere else for sure.

Teaching is something someone should do for the love of it, not because they all of a sudden can't find work and have decided "Hey, I can speak English, I'll be a TEFL teacher"

And FYI it's not even called TEFL anymore, it's TESOL.

OP is obviously hopping on the 'teach English' bandwagon, and I can tell you something if you think you can waltz in somewhere and start teaching English to a group of people when you don't know your own language INSIDE OUT you're wrong, because (1) they will know, they're foreign, not stupid and (2) it will make you hate the job.

There is not a huge amount of planning to TESOL. Classes should be relaxed and real, a bit of speaking, listening, talking, writing, grammar.

If you want to work in TESOL or Primary/secondary teaching for that matter for the money - you're barking up the wrong tree!!!

OP I don't mean to sound rude, I don't have the time to edit this as I'm heading out. If you're serious about tesol PM me and I can give you tips, but I wouldnt bother if you're just in it for the money!

Are you sure you're not some sort of clinical psychologist, because that's one hell of a read into my supposed character based on what was, all things told, me simply offering my opinion that a TEFL rate for a specific job in this country seems exploitative to me.;)

Your point about doing it for the love of it is all well and good, but that won't put food on the table and while very noble, you have to be practical. Besides, how do you know I haven't already got some experience? Or that maybe I do love teaching, just not to the point where'll I'll cut my own throat to be a good honourable and admirable little soldier in the recession while my boss counts profits and I struggle?
I first taught TEFL 11/12 years ago, and on and off since. I've worked in another industry practically full time and now I need a job and am re-visiting the area of teaching in a serious way. What's wrong with this? Was there not criticism inferred earlier on in the thread re: going on the dole as an alternative to a demanding job, that pays probably only as much if not less in real terms? I'm re-skilling and doing what I can to survive.

I'm familiar with teaching TEFL classes. You're critical of me for supposedly jumping on the bandwagon - a frankly insulting blanket generalisation when you know nothing about me whatsoever. I could just as easily take what you've said about TEFL classes needing little preparation and accuse you of being a lazy teacher!! (I'm not suggesting that for a minute btw, just illustrating). For what it's worth, I'd spend a minimum of 1 hour prepping classes because finding a creative and interesting way to set up and see a class through is fundamental to MY approach to teaching and teaching well, and I regard effort = results as applicable to me as a teacher as it is to my students. I'd put in a hell of a lot more prep time if it's a grammar lesson, because guess what, I'm determined to do a good job and EARN that decent pay I was complaining about at the outset; and because yes, I'm aware people aren't stupid and that there's more to it that being a parrot in front of a group of foreigners or whatever the stereotype is.
Finally, I said way back that I know full well TEFL isn't a lucrative industry, that wasn't my point at the outset - I was, rather, pointing out that the rate of pay cited in the example is absolute pants and not in any way reflective of the work that people - or perhaps I - would put into it. I wasn't asking for huge wages, nothing like it, just a decent rate of pay in return for a decent level of prep and work. I know we're talking English teaching here but that's still only basic maths I'd have thought.
Average wages in Italy are about approx. 1000 a month nett for 25 contact hours per week, hardly a bag of loot but for the cost of living over there, it's a living wage, more than adequate, and nobody, me included, would feel cheated.

So sorry, with respect, to the moral majority who think different to me on the Irish situation but I won't be changing my mind any time soon.

RealEstateKing · 02-10-2009 8:57pm

and I can honestly say that it is the worst amount of money per amount of work done, without even the most basic level of security that one can get in ANY sector of the economy, and I include working in McDonalds in that.

I earn just over 300 Euro a week. I have a college degree, a master's degree, a HDip and 5 years of experience. I dont have even the most basic level of job security - there might be enough students next week for a class, or there might not. Even in a relatively crappy minimum wage job , you can usually guarantee there'll be work from one week to the next.

On top of this, it is only people that have never worked as a teacher that fail to realise that 20-25 hours a week of teaching IS a full weeks work, when you factor in preparation, corrections, admin and the sheer fact that an hour spent being the center of attention in front of 20 people, does not equate to an hour sat in front of a computer screen. Its akin to saying an actor gets paid too much: "Sure he only does one performance of Hamlet a night, and thats only 3 hours long, how come he gets paid more than me?"

As well as this there is zero opportunity for advancement in the sector. You can move into the admin side, or become a school director, but if teaching is your thing, you will have to commit yourself to being a member of the underclass (financially) for the rest of your life.

TEFL in Ireland (and most European countries), is essentially a scam run on a simple equation:

x: The huge amounts of money that people are willing to pay to learn English.

y: The tiny salaries that are paid to teachers on the pretext that TEFL is (a) Only a 'casual' job, done by backpackers, students and artists/actors in need of daily bread.

Despite being disparaged as 'casual' or 'temporary' by their wage packets, these teachers are then sold to the students as 'English Language Education Professionals', allowing the schools to charge students high prices for their services (when all most schools actually do is provide a room for the class to take place in).

x-y=massive profits.

When it comes to pay, security, pensions, healthcare and Euros per hour, of course, it is clear that the schools do not consider TEFL teachers to be "English Language Proffessionals." , they consider them to be interchangable flunkies that keep the scam going: The massive amount of money to be made by providing the illusion of an accredited, offical educational institution to the students, while continuing to treat the staff like Mexican migrant labour in the California Orange fields.

I would strongly recommend anyone not to enter this industry unless they have a clear path in some other direction and simply need something to pass the time. TEFL in Ireland does not pay it's teachers enough money to survive, and it is only because most of them are decent individuals who have a conscience that students learn anything at all. The schools are bugger all to do with it.

For an international perspective on this, have a look at this:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/3325192/The-slavery-of-teaching-English.html

On the plus side, I do get to chat to beautiful women all day!

implausible · 02-10-2009 9:20pm

RealEstateKing wrote: »

As well as this there is zero opportunity for advancement in the sector. You can move into the admin side, or become a school director

TEFL in Ireland (and most European countries), is essentially a scam run on a simple equation

There's very little in your post I can disagree with, it is unregulated, crappy pay and not given recognition. Unless you get into a primary or secondary school and have EAL in addition to curricular subjects, you're not going to get any security or proper pay. However, this is the reason most people use it as a stop-gap and don't stay in it!

IzzyWizzy · 02-10-2009 9:29pm

How much do you expect to earn for four hours a day? 1200 euro a month is a pretty damn good wage for doing so little. And as for the prep and marking, that really is minimal once you know what you're doing. You shouldn't actually need to spend an hour or two hours planning a class. That isn't expected of you and you can plan a decent class in far less time than that. I never spend more than 15 mins on a lesson plan - I know the grammar inside out and I can think of examples off the top of my head once I'm in there. Once you know what you're talking about and can use your imagination, there is no need at all to spend hours planning lessons.

Short answer, no. I'm speaking hypothetically but I would look on the time investment for the €300 as the equivalent of working a full-time, demanding job for peanuts. I could do something else with only slightly better earnings and work half the time involved, and use the rest productively. I'm all for people working but if people accept crap pay for full-time, dressed in part-time clothes, more fool them. The experience here would be mostly bitter I fear.

It IS a part-time job. Please let me know where else I can earn 1200 quid a month for a four hour day and I'll go and sign up. Having to do a bit of prep work and marking doesn't mean you should get a full time wage. Out of all the jobs I've had, TEFL is the best paid for the least amount of misery. It's not always easy, but it's a hell of a lot more fun and a lot more rewarding than anything else I've done. What exactly are these other careers you're talking about?

madziuda · 02-10-2009 9:30pm

oh, ffs, people, I'm begging you, research a job market thoroughly before you enter a certain profession. TEFL is not something you can do full time in Ireland or, as a matter of fact, in any English-speaking country. Not anymore, at least. Not if you are hoping to earn good money.

This is a job you can do, with good results, in other countries. Thus, this profession is best suited for people who want a career break and do some work while travelling around the world or are prepared to move to another country permanently.

RealEstateKing wrote: »

As well as this there is zero opportunity for advancement in the sector. You can move into the admin side, or become a school director, but if teaching is your thing, you will have to commit yourself to being a member of the underclass (financially) for the rest of your life.

Not true, you can become a Director of Studies or Teacher Trainer. Both involve teaching.

RealEstateKing wrote: »

TEFL in Ireland (and most European countries), is essentially a scam run on a simple equation:

<snip>

The tiny salaries that are paid to teachers on the pretext that TEFL is (a) Only a 'casual' job, done by backpackers, students and artists/actors in need of daily bread.

It may be so in Ireland. But there's a good few European countries, where EFL teacher is one of the best paid professions there is. Again, an example from Poland. A degree qualified EFL teacher with some experience working for a good language school in a big city earns about 60 zl per hour. That's more or less the same as the 15 Euro per hour offered by many of Irish schools right now. DOS can get nearly double the amount, and Certified Cambridge Examiners will get higher wages as well.

The cost of living is MUCH lower here as well. A monthly rent for a 2 bedroom apartment in my city is about 1500zl (about 350 Euro). Compared to Ireland, food costs peanuts here.

The fact is, you'll be hard put to find a job with higher hourly wages here.

As for job security - bigger schools will guarantee 25 hours a week for 10 months a year. if you're good you'll be hired to teach VIPs on a one-to-one basis (hugely profitable). Summer holidays are a bit tricky, there are still some hours though as well as an opportunity to work at summer camps.

That's the situation in Poland, but it's by no means an exception. As far as I know you can count on similiar conditions in Italy and France. (Not sure about the latter though).

My point is, do your research. Make sure what you're getting into. Don't diss the whole profession and all language schools. It's just not fair

IzzyWizzy · 02-10-2009 9:48pm

RealEstateKing wrote: »

I earn just over 300 Euro a week. I have a college degree, a master's degree, a HDip and 5 years of experience. I dont have even the most basic level of job security - there might be enough students next week for a class, or there might not. Even in a relatively crappy minimum wage job , you can usually guarantee there'll be work from one week to the next.

I agree, but that is the nature of TEFL. Surely you knew this when you when into it? Being 'temporary' can be bad as in you have little security, but on the other hand, it means you can come and go as you please. I've lived in three countries this year doing TEFL. I was able to take holidays when I wanted to visit my boyfriend abroad. I know there are disadvantages but I would never have had that flexibility in my office job.

On top of this, it is only people that have never worked as a teacher that fail to realise that 20-25 hours a week of teaching IS a full weeks work, when you factor in preparation, corrections, admin and the sheer fact that an hour spent being the center of attention in front of 20 people, does not equate to an hour sat in front of a computer screen. Its akin to saying an actor gets paid too much: "Sure he only does one performance of Hamlet a night, and thats only 3 hours long, how come he gets paid more than me?"

I'm a teacher and I don't think a 20 hour week is a full weeks work. I used to do it, and it was definitely part time. Yes, I had an hour or so of prep per day and I had to go in early to photocopy stuff. That still left me with loads of free time to do other things. I was doing 35 hours a week in my last job in Dublin. It was hard, but only because I was working until 10pm. If I was doing it 9-5, it would have been grand. Yes, standing in front of a class is harder than sitting at a desk, but I was getting paid quite a bit more than I did for my office job. It's not as if you get minimum wage for TEFL!

As well as this there is zero opportunity for advancement in the sector. You can move into the admin side, or become a school director, but if teaching is your thing, you will have to commit yourself to being a member of the underclass (financially) for the rest of your life.

That's not news to anyone. Nobody goes into TEFL to become rich. I don't think it's that badly paid, though. It IS a liveable wage.

TEFL in Ireland (and most European countries), is essentially a scam run on a simple equation:

x: The huge amounts of money that people are willing to pay to learn English.

y: The tiny salaries that are paid to teachers on the pretext that TEFL is (a) Only a 'casual' job, done by backpackers, students and artists/actors in need of daily bread.

Despite being disparaged as 'casual' or 'temporary' by their wage packets, these teachers are then sold to the students as 'English Language Education Professionals', allowing the schools to charge students high prices for their services (when all most schools actually do is provide a room for the class to take place in).

x-y=massive profits.

When it comes to pay, security, pensions, healthcare and Euros per hour, of course, it is clear that the schools do not consider TEFL teachers to be "English Language Proffessionals." , they consider them to be interchangable flunkies that keep the scam going: The massive amount of money to be made by providing the illusion of an accredited, offical educational institution to the students, while continuing to treat the staff like Mexican migrant labour in the California Orange fields.

I see your point here, but a lot of TEFL teachers don't act like English Language Professionals. They are either postgrad students, or working for a short time to save money, or changing jobs every few months as they work their way around Europe. A lot of them don't WANT the security as it would mean more commitment at their end.

I would strongly recommend anyone not to enter this industry unless they have a clear path in some other direction and simply need something to pass the time. TEFL in Ireland does not pay it's teachers enough money to survive, and it is only because most of them are decent individuals who have a conscience that students learn anything at all. The schools are bugger all to do with it.

Bit of an exaggeration, no? How much do you need to survive? I was pretty comfortable on my wage. I wouldn't want to bring a family up on it, but I never thought TEFL was a well paid career. If I wanted big bucks, I'd have gone into something else. There are still a hell of a lot of people who work harder, longer hours, in crappier conditions for a lot less pay.

cavanmaniac · 02-10-2009 10:19pm

IzzyWizzy wrote: »

How much do you expect to earn for four hours a day? 1200 euro a month is a pretty damn good wage for doing so little. And as for the prep and marking, that really is minimal once you know what you're doing. You shouldn't actually need to spend an hour or two hours planning a class. That isn't expected of you and you can plan a decent class in far less time than that. I never spend more than 15 mins on a lesson plan - I know the grammar inside out and I can think of examples off the top of my head once I'm in there. Once you know what you're talking about and can use your imagination, there is no need at all to spend hours planning lessons.

I disagree. The bottom line is that most of your week would be taken up if you're preparing assiduously which rules out another part time job effectively. How long or not you spend prepping is your own business and if you know the grammar, so much the better, I personally do not and spend much longer planning lessons.

So my question is, how would you survive on €300 a week in Dublin?

Most of the working week is practically gone and you're just barely ahead financially than you'd be on the dole for doing nothing, end of. If the moral imperative re: working as opposed to not is more important to people than doing the sums and realising you're basically getting a saddle put on you and being shafted, then that's your personal perogative but it's a view I don't share.

IzzyWizzy wrote: »

It IS a part-time job. Please let me know where else I can earn 1200 quid a month for a four hour day and I'll go and sign up. Having to do a bit of prep work and marking doesn't mean you should get a full time wage [...] What exactly are these other careers you're talking about?

Not to me anyway is it part-time, no way.
Even in today's climate, I can (and will) get 8-hour shifts, sometimes at unsociable hours and weekends, that pay approximately €150 a shift. And that's not just because I'm experienced at the work, the same is given to fresh college leavers, it's the basic rate for the industry. It's half decent money, it's not good for the social life, but it allows you to LIVE which is what I'm really taking about here. I could do two and half day's work there and earn more than I would in a whole week the TEFL example I mentioned. Even if I did five half-shifts (four hour) there, I'd have €375, comfortably ahead of the TEFL job but crucially, no before or after work commitment so you have time to maybe work another part-time job elsewhere to stay afloat. It's an expensive city to live in folks.

I plan to teach abroad soon and would have jumped at some TEFL work in Ireland to resharpen myself before going, but not at a financial cost to myself for the privilege.

Good thread all the same:)

IzzyWizzy · 03-10-2009 12:48am

cavanmaniac wrote: »

I disagree. The bottom line is that most of your week would be taken up if you're preparing assiduously which rules out another part time job effectively. How long or not you spend prepping is your own business and if you know the grammar, so much the better, I personally do not and spend much longer planning lessons.

You're missing my point. It's not your employer's fault if you take ages to prepare. That's your problem. You seem to expect to be compensated for spending hours outside classes preparing stuff. If you need to spend that long, then maybe this isn't for you. I don't mean that in a rude way. There is absolutely no way that a 20 hour TEFL working week is a full time job. Sure, it could be, if you were lucky enough to get a good wage, but I taught almost twice that amount of hours last year and spent no more than an hour per day planning, unless I was doing something really special. You shouldn't really need to 'learn' each grammar point as you teach it, you should already know it pretty well. It's a question of taking a quick look at the grammar book and photocopying/preparing related exercises/games/whatever. Sure, if you want to spend 2 hours prepping a grammar class, that's your business. But I think it's silly to then complain about all the 'preparation time' when you're choosing to spend much longer than necessary on it.

So my question is, how would you survive on €300 a week in Dublin?

Most of the working week is practically gone and you're just barely ahead financially than you'd be on the dole for doing nothing, end of. If the moral imperative re: working as opposed to not is more important to people than doing the sums and realising you're basically getting a saddle put on you and being shafted, then that's your personal perogative but it's a view I don't share.

I have survived on that in the past, when I had a low paying call centre job. It's totally doable. If I was making that much for a 20 hour week, I'd get another part time job. That's what I did do, so please no BS about how it isn't possible. I'm just not lazy. It's not a question of morals. Making 2000 euro a month for a 35 hour working week + prep time is a hell of a lot better than the dole. Getting out of the house, meeting people from around the world, having a laugh with colleagues, experience for the CV beats sitting in front of Jeremy Kyle. The only exception would be if I had young kids and childcare costs were as high as my wages, or something like that.

Not to me anyway is it part-time, no way.
Even in today's climate, I can (and will) get 8-hour shifts, sometimes at unsociable hours and weekends, that pay approximately €150 a shift. And that's not just because I'm experienced at the work, the same is given to fresh college leavers, it's the basic rate for the industry. It's half decent money, it's not good for the social life, but it allows you to LIVE which is what I'm really taking about here. I could do two and half day's work there and earn more than I would in a whole week the TEFL example I mentioned. Even if I did five half-shifts (four hour) there, I'd have €375, comfortably ahead of the TEFL job but crucially, no before or after work commitment so you have time to maybe work another part-time job elsewhere to stay afloat. It's an expensive city to live in folks.

What is this work? If you find it better than TEFL, then do it. I'm not being rude at all, but it just seems you aren't cut out for teaching English. We all want money, but it's a lot more than just 'I can make X amount doing X hours somewhere else.' I could make fairly good money working in a factory, but it's soul destroying, boring, unrewarding work with no opportunity to travel or anything. I enjoy teaching, and the prep work isn't a big deal for me. I just went into work an hour early and did it over lunch and photocopied between classes. If I had correcting to do, I did it while watching TV at home. I wasn't constantly thinking 'God I'm not being paid for this, how unfair.' I worked from 2-10 and I had a lie in every morning and went out pretty often after work. The prep time just wasn't a big deal.

livinginkorea · 03-10-2009 10:48am

IzzyWizzy wrote: »

You're missing my point. It's not your employer's fault if you take ages to prepare. That's your problem. You seem to expect to be compensated for spending hours outside classes preparing stuff. If you need to spend that long, then maybe this isn't for you. I don't mean that in a rude way. There is absolutely no way that a 20 hour TEFL working week is a full time job. Sure, it could be, if you were lucky enough to get a good wage, but I taught almost twice that amount of hours last year and spent no more than an hour per day planning, unless I was doing something really special. You shouldn't really need to 'learn' each grammar point as you teach it, you should already know it pretty well. It's a question of taking a quick look at the grammar book and photocopying/preparing related exercises/games/whatever. Sure, if you want to spend 2 hours prepping a grammar class, that's your business. But I think it's silly to then complain about all the 'preparation time' when you're choosing to spend much longer than necessary on it.

It totally depends on your learners. Are you teaching the same lesson a few times on the same day or do you have various lessons to prepare? Have you taught the book/materials before? Is your lesson focused on grammar/conversation/exam/business...etc Do you have to travel to various places or do the learners come to you/institute? Do you use technology in the class? These are all factors which have to be taken into account when you are 'preparing.'

A couple of years back I taught only private/company classes in Korea for 6 months while I was waiting for a university position. I started off at 10 in the morning teaching kindergarden for two hours. I went home and had lunch. Out again at 2 to teach elementary kids (primary kids) for a couple of hours. I used the 'Hip Hip Horrary' series which I have taught about a dozen times by now. At 6 I had a company classes for two hours, basically conversational English, using topical articles from the net and finally I had some more classes, usually middle school kids until 10pm. I used the same set of books for a lot of classes so I never had to prepare much at all. I easily made 3,000 Euro a month for around 30 teaching hours a week. The only drawback was that I had to travel a lot and spent around 3 hours on a bus per day.

I was teaching lots of young learners using the same series of textbooks so I didn't prepare much for that class. The company class required me to search some articles from Korean English newspapers on-line and click print. It didn't require much work because the class was higher intermediate and they just wanted to speak as much as possible. For the kindergarden classes I was given a story book on the day of the class and used that for 20 minutes and then change to the next class and repeat the cycle for two hours. I would come up with the actions (TPR) in the class as I drilled it with the kids.

My main point is that once you are in a routine and have used the same textbooks many times before then prep. is considerably reduced. Some people prepare more than others, some people know grammar or pronunication more than others. Some know how to kill time more than others. Personally I like to prepare a lot. Then again I only teach 15 hours a week!

RealEstateKing · 03-10-2009 11:11am

It's not as if you get minimum wage for TEFL!

Well, not exactly, you get about 40 quid more than minimum wage. Assuming a 25 hour week: 25x15=375 quid a week minus tax = 320-350 a week. Now of course, that is comparing TEFL to the kind of jobs you do if all you have is a leaving cert. Compared to other jobs that require a college degree, that gap is astronomical.

The average annual industrial wage in Ireland is 32,000 Euro. The wage for a 25 hour a week TEFL teacher is about 17,160 Euro (If, and this is a big if, he has 25 hours every week of the year) - subtract the weeks in the lean times when theres no work, and the fact that he has no pension, no health care, and often no holiday pay, and we are talking about earning HALF the average industrial wage, or less.

Dont let the fact that the job is fun and the girls are pretty blind you to the fact that you're being exploited.

I mean dont get me wrong, I like the actual job of TEFL, the sociability, the chatting, the new people and all the rest. I got into it precisely because I was bored of office life.

But the financial side of it simply isn't fair on the teachers, it exploits precisely the attitude that some people have of "well it's only TEFL". As any of us know, you can be the type of EFL teacher who shows up, has a few laughs and goes home, or you can be the type of EFL teacher who prepares lessons properly and really cares about his or her students, and tries to develop his/her skills as he goes on - if you do it that way, it is comparable in seriousness to just about any other Mid-Level profession, but, the size of your pay packet will not increase one Iota,

As well as this there is a huge difference in what/who you're teaching. Ive had weeks teaching Intermediate General English, where I could swan in and prepare a lesson in 20 mins and play games and have fun. Then my class gets changed and Im preparing highly-motivated Advanced students to pass their Cambridge Exams: Totally different ball game, pay, precisely the same.

My gripe is not with the work, I enjoy it, its fun, sociable, challenging and a damn sight more interesting than most office jobs, thats why Im here. I just dont see why schools have to pay so little: An extra 100 or so quid a week would make it a liveable wage, but schools pay as little as they can get away with, primarily on the basis that TEFL is not a 'proper' job - even though you need a college degree, a TEFL cert and (in this economy) several years experience to get in the door. It should not pay the same money as flipping burgers.

And for those who say things like "you dont go into TEFL to get rich" or "everybody knows that EFL isn't a high-paying job" - we're not talking about getting rich, we're talking about a pay packet that would enable one to do the job and have the things that adults have : A car, kids, a holiday every now and then, some sort of security and a few spare quid to buy yourself the odd treat now and then. Is that too much to ask?

IzzyWizzy · 03-10-2009 12:54pm

I do see your point, but I still don't see a 25 hour week as full time. If you really need more money, take on more hours. The only TEFL teachers I know who teach 'part time' (5 x 4 hours per day) are people doing postgrad study. They teach in the mornings, 9-1 and then go to college in the afternoon. I can't see why someone with no study commitments has to do a 20-25 hour week.

I do agree that people tend to view TEFL as a Mickey Mouse career. I agree that's unfair. I would like people to respect it as a 'real' profession and understand that some of us take it seriously and actually know our stuff. The problem is the perception of TEFL in English speaking countries - a lot of people DO just use it to travel around the world without having any real interest in it and a lot of people get the TEFL cert without being particularly good at it. To some extent, the view that it's a job for young people or students is justified. I consider myself a good teacher, but I went into it precisely for the flexibility. If I wanted a well paid career with all the trappings you mention, I'd have gone into secondary teaching, but I didn't want to commit to staying in Ireland. Right now, it's a handy job for me as I continue my studies. I work half the hours I'd work as a waitress for the same pay, and the work is much nicer. If I decide to continue with TEFL, I'd hope to either do it alongside my translation work, or become a DOS and eventually open my own school. I don't see the point in whining that the pay is low and conditions are bad - I knew that going in. I never expected to be paid the same as a school teacher. We may need a TEFL cert but they have to do a whole year of training and work with kids, with all the discipline and other issues that brings. Sure, it would be great to be paid a bit more and have our hard work recognised, but realistically, can you really expect to make 40K for this job?

RealEstateKing · 03-10-2009 8:35pm

I dont expect TEFL teachers to get 40 K a year , but 22,000 or above would be a fair wage for such a job.

Well, you might not consider 25 hours a week to be a full weeks work, but the department of education does: 23 hours is the legal maximum for a secondary school teacher, precisely because the dep of ed. realises that that's the most anybody can be expected to teach in a week, when corrections , preparations and the stress of being the centre of attention is taken into account. Of course secondary school teaching is harder, but it pays 40 euros an hour. Im think it would be fair if TEFL paid a bit over half of that.

While I would agree that 25 hours of TEFL does not compare to 40 hours in a hot, sweaty restaraunt - it certainly does compare poorly to jobs that college-educated people do - an hour of teaching does not compare to an hour of sitting in an office.

As well as this, 'taking on more hours' is not always possible in many schools: Ive been on 20 hours a week for more than a year now, cause of the way the timetable works: Its either 20 or 40 for me, and forty is only possible when there is a huge influx of students.

Furthermore , getting enough hours often translates into working the evening shift (which is another TEFL pain in the arse) , waiting around all day so you can teach from 7:30 pm till 10:00 or some such, for the princely sum of 30 quid.

In summation, there is no reason to my mind why EFL teachers shouldnt be paid as much money as filing clerks, admin staff, or data entry people, rather than as much as dishwashers, factory hands and McDonalds staff.

IzzyWizzy · 04-10-2009 11:29am

Again, I see your point, but the secondary teachers are teaching a syllabus, all the time. They have to make sure they cover all the material. They can't walk in and decide to play a game or do a mock celebrity interview. I know all classes are different, but in my language school, once students were getting through the textbook and happy with the class, you could do whatever you wanted. Secondary teachers also have a lot more correction. They are correcting written work every night. As a TEFL teacher, you shouldn't normally be correcting long essays every day. I did almost all homework correction in class so I was really only correcting exams in my own time.

As for what college educated people do, well, at the end of the day your degree is only worth what employers will pay for it. If graduates stopped going into TEFL, they'd just lower the requirement to a TEFL cert. My degree is not a practical one, so I never expected to be earning anything like what doctors, accountants, lawyers earn. That is exactly why I've gone back into education. In the TEFL world, the good degree from a good college I worked hard for, is no better than a third class degree from Randomcollege. I am looking to get into an area where my skills and qualifications are appreciated and needed.

As for the hours thing, I can only say that anyone I know who really wanted more hours got them. This often meant moving between schools, but that's not a big deal. I'm aware that in Ireland, you almost always have to sign up for 'blocks' (morning, afternoon or evening classes) so I agree that you could end up with more hours than you wanted. My school happened to offer 15 hours a week for evening classes, so I went from 20 to 35, which was challenging but still doable. If you do afternoons and evenings, that eliminates the waiting around. If I'd stayed at the school long enough, I'd have eventually been offered mornings and afternoons, or indeed I could have looked elsewhere (I knew I was moving abroad so wasn't bothered).

Paywise, I guess it's all about supply and demand. Teaching your own language in your own country is hardly ever lucrative. My boyfriend is in Asia right now, and the local teachers work loads of hours for a pittance, while he makes twice that for conversation classes. Obviously if you go somewhere you're in great demand, you're going to be better off than somewhere like Ireland where TEFL cert holders are ten a penny.

peanuthead · 04-10-2009 12:44pm

cavanmaniac wrote: »

Are you sure you're not some sort of clinical psychologist, because that's one hell of a read into my supposed character based on what was, all things told, me simply offering my opinion that a TEFL rate for a specific job in this country seems exploitative to me.;)

Your point about doing it for the love of it is all well and good, but that won't put food on the table and while very noble, you have to be practical. Besides, how do you know I haven't already got some experience? Or that maybe I do love teaching, just not to the point where'll I'll cut my own throat to be a good honourable and admirable little soldier in the recession while my boss counts profits and I struggle?
I first taught TEFL 11/12 years ago, and on and off since. I've worked in another industry practically full time and now I need a job and am re-visiting the area of teaching in a serious way. What's wrong with this? Was there not criticism inferred earlier on in the thread re: going on the dole as an alternative to a demanding job, that pays probably only as much if not less in real terms? I'm re-skilling and doing what I can to survive.

I'm familiar with teaching TEFL classes. You're critical of me for supposedly jumping on the bandwagon - a frankly insulting blanket generalisation when you know nothing about me whatsoever. I could just as easily take what you've said about TEFL classes needing little preparation and accuse you of being a lazy teacher!! (I'm not suggesting that for a minute btw, just illustrating). For what it's worth, I'd spend a minimum of 1 hour prepping classes because finding a creative and interesting way to set up and see a class through is fundamental to MY approach to teaching and teaching well, and I regard effort = results as applicable to me as a teacher as it is to my students. I'd put in a hell of a lot more prep time if it's a grammar lesson, because guess what, I'm determined to do a good job and EARN that decent pay I was complaining about at the outset; and because yes, I'm aware people aren't stupid and that there's more to it that being a parrot in front of a group of foreigners or whatever the stereotype is.
Finally, I said way back that I know full well TEFL isn't a lucrative industry, that wasn't my point at the outset - I was, rather, pointing out that the rate of pay cited in the example is absolute pants and not in any way reflective of the work that people - or perhaps I - would put into it. I wasn't asking for huge wages, nothing like it, just a decent rate of pay in return for a decent level of prep and work. I know we're talking English teaching here but that's still only basic maths I'd have thought.
Average wages in Italy are about approx. 1000 a month nett for 25 contact hours per week, hardly a bag of loot but for the cost of living over there, it's a living wage, more than adequate, and nobody, me included, would feel cheated.

So sorry, with respect, to the moral majority who think different to me on the Irish situation but I won't be changing my mind any time soon.

Em, okay I take your point, I suppose I did assume, sorry about that.

I just feel that from someone who tries to make a living from this work during the summer months in particular because I'm a part time teacher and not paid for my summers, it really annoys me the amount of people who decide they are TEFL teachers sinply because of the recession.
I could not compete this year with the rates out there, people who were unqualified, posting adverts on a particular free online advertisement site for english lessons at €5 an hour!!!:eek:

Yes their quality would be questionable, but in these times I don't think the majority care that much, or worse, probably don't realise.

Not to sound rude, but if you have as much experience as you say you do, how come you weren't aware that the rate for teaching TEFL is low? It always has been.

My comment about not taking long to plan was mis-read, but that's down to my typing I see!! What I meant by that was that you will build up a bank of resources along the way, and if you keep a photocopy of each lesson you prepare you will have a huge amount of lessons by the end of the year.

Can I make one serious suggestion to you, however. Are you qualified by ACELS to teach TESOL/TEFL? If you are, and you want to work in TEFL but at a higher rate, can I suggest to you that you apply to the VEC/Schools in your area as there are TEFL classes held in schools during the days for adults and weak foreign national students and even in the evenings for some adults in some schools.
I think this may be paid at the unqualified teacher rate I AM TOTALLY OPEN FOR CORRECTION HERE - ANOTHER ONE OF MY BIG ASSUMPTIONS HERE!!;) which is a whopping €49 or so.
I know its very easy to say "there are no schools employing" but you just don't know until you try, you never know who's going on maternity leave or transferring and it doesn't make a blind bit of difference that it's October.

Good Luck, and hope we're all good after the last message!

lol

p

Hourly rate TEFL?

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