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Putting English language apostrophes in Irish language names

  • 05-02-2009 8:35pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭


    TBH, this could go in the English or Irish forum, but I chose to put it here, since this is a mistake that is almost exclusive to English speakers and Irish language names are inevitably buried in a sea of English.

    Take a relatively famous Irish language name like Dara Ó Briain. For argument's sake, we can take it that the surname is historically anglicised as O'Brien (from the Irish, meaning 'Grandson of Brian'). But under no circumstances should anyone be writing O'Briain, not to mention the print overload of Ó'Briain.

    Ó (sometimes archaic spelling Ua) comes from an old Irish term meaning 'grandson' and has no relationship to the English abbreviation o'/of (Will o' the Wisp, Sheaf o' Wheat, Cat o' Nine Tails etc.), even though English civil servants seemed to have come to the conclusion that it was, in their dealings with Gaelic-Irish names over many centuries. So you wouldn't believe how ridiculous it seems to someone even vaguely in the know, when people start applying English punctuation on an Irish language name.

    It's actually a case of mixing the punctuation/grammar of two completely different languages together in a big mash and before anyone states that it somehow doesn't matter, you can be damned sure you wouldn't do it in the spelling of any other language (How about a hyphen in 'Von-Hindenberg', just for the laugh). A lot of its usage seems to be based on nothing more than "sure it's only Irish, so who gives a sh*t."

    So spare a though for that poor little Ó and try not to burden it with extra un-necessary shoulder baggage. :)


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,962 ✭✭✭GhostInTheRuins


    Good post.

    On a related note, the widespread practice of English speakers when writing words or phrases from different languages to leave out accents really annoys me, completely ignorant to the fact that it totally changes the pronunciation and meaning of said words.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,595 ✭✭✭MathsManiac


    But the OP (or is it O'P or Ó P?) is not objecting to somebody whose name is O'Brien being called O'Brien. The objection is, quite rightly, to calling someone whose name is Ó Briain something other than Ó Briain (and, in particular, calling them a name that could not reasonably exist within the language of the name).

    I doubt very much if you will find people whose actual birth certificates or passports say, for example, Ó'Briain.

    I believe the OP is correct to state that in the case of names in other languages, writers make an effort to spell them correctly, including accents and punctuation. It is reasonable to expect the same courtesy to be extended to names in Irish, particularly within Ireland.

    The error is common, and it irritates me too.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,576 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    Múinteoir wrote: »
    TBH, this could go in the English or Irish forum, but I chose to put it here, since this is a mistake that is almost exclusive to English speakers and Irish language names are inevitably buried in a sea of English.

    Take a relatively famous Irish language name like Dara Ó Briain. For argument's sake, we can take it that the surname is historically anglicised as O'Brien (from the Irish, meaning 'Grandson of Brian'). But under no circumstances should anyone be writing O'Briain, not to mention the print overload of Ó'Briain.

    Ó (sometimes archaic spelling Ua) comes from an old Irish term meaning 'grandson' and has no relationship to the English abbreviation o'/of (Will o' the Wisp, Sheaf o' Wheat, Cat o' Nine Tails etc.), even though English civil servants seemed to have come to the conclusion that it was, in their dealings with Gaelic-Irish names over many centuries. So you wouldn't believe how ridiculous it seems to someone even vaguely in the know, when people start applying English punctuation on an Irish language name.

    It's actually a case of mixing the punctuation/grammar of two completely different languages together in a big mash and before anyone states that it somehow doesn't matter, you can be damned sure you wouldn't do it in the spelling of any other language (How about a hyphen in 'Von-Hindenberg', just for the laugh). A lot of its usage seems to be based on nothing more than "sure it's only Irish, so who gives a sh*t."

    So spare a though for that poor little Ó and try not to burden it with extra un-necessary shoulder baggage. :)

    When I was an undergraduate I seem to remember being told that you did'nt put the "Dot" over the 'i' in Irish?

    was that to do with the old gaelic script and has this changed since the more modern "English " version.??


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,576 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    This post has been deleted.

    Definitely not happy with those versions ,if I read him correctly.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,793 ✭✭✭✭Hagar


    When I was an undergraduate I seem to remember being told that you did'nt put the "Dot" over the 'i' in Irish?

    was that to do with the old gaelic script and has this changed since the more modern "English " version.??
    That's correct afaik. The dot buailte, as it is known, is an aspirated h above a consonant. The word bhí when I was in school was written bí with a dot above the b. Sorry I can't get the font to work.

    /edit/ Here's an example of the script with aspirated consonants and un-dotted is. Link.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,576 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    Yes and notice no 'dot' over the is.

    Sorry, you mentioned that

    The auld Muinteoir will have to get rid of those dots in his nick:p


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭Múinteoir


    This post has been deleted.

    Hi Donegalfella,

    I think you're misrepresenting what I'm saying. First of all, I don't care how someone spells their own name; that's their choice, be it in English or Irish or any language for that matter. Indeed, I have no problem whatsover with modern spellings of Irish language names like Ó Cuív (instead of the traditional Ó Caoimh. Interesting letter to the editor of the IT on that particular subject here, if anyone is interested.).

    What I do have a problem with, is people mis-spelling other people's names out of ignorance or sloppiness, especially in Ireland. Your surname, or any other surname may have gone through many mutations of spelling over history and you or anyone else are entitled to spell it how you wish, but I'm quite sure you wouldn't like someone changing it on your behalf without consultation. And in English, I'm quite sure someone with a name like O'Reilly would object to it being randomly spelt O-Reilly or Oreilly by others all of a sudden.
    Now I'm confused—is the OP's point that someone such as Gaelic footballer Marc Ó Sé sometimes sees his name written as Ó'Sé, or O'Sé, or O'Shea?

    Unsolicited anglication (i.e. Ó Sé being turned into O'Shea without warning) does seem to be a thing of the past from my experience, but yes, sloppy spelling of Irish language names is a very common occurence today.
    But the OP (or is it O'P or Ó P?)

    :D
    Hagar wrote: »
    That's correct afaik. The dot buailte, as it is known, is an aspirated h above a consonant. The word bhí when I was in school was written bí with a dot above the b. Sorry I can't get the font to work.

    /edit/ Here's an example of the script with aspirated consonants and un-dotted is. Link.

    As Hagar has pointed out, the 'ponc' or 'séimhiú' (dot over consonants) is not the same as a 'síneadh fada' (accent over vowels) and isn't used in the modern Roman script.

    The auld Muinteoir will have to get rid of those dots in his nick:p

    Why? :confused: I'm not writing in the old Gaelic script. I'm writing in the Roman script, which does have dots over the i, even in Irish.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,793 ✭✭✭✭Hagar


    Google for Cló Gealeach if you are interested in an old Gaelic font.
    It's free compliments of its designer Colm Twomey


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,576 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    Múinteoir wrote: »
    Hi Donegalfella,

    I think you're misrepresenting what I'm saying. First of all, I don't care how someone spells their own name; that's their choice, be it in English or Irish or any language for that matter. Indeed, I have no problem whatsover with modern spellings of Irish language names like Ó Cuív (instead of the traditional Ó Caoimh. Interesting letter to the editor of the IT on that particular subject here, if anyone is interested.).

    What I do have a problem with, is people mis-spelling other people's names out of ignorance or sloppiness, especially in Ireland. Your surname, or any other surname may have gone through many mutations of spelling over history and you or anyone else are entitled to spell it how you wish, but I'm quite sure you wouldn't like someone changing it on your behalf without consultation. And in English, I'm quite sure someone with a name like O'Reilly would object to it being randomly spelt O-Reilly or Oreilly by others all of a sudden.



    Unsolicited anglication (i.e. Ó Sé being turned into O'Shea without warning) does seem to be a thing of the past from my experience, but yes, sloppy spelling of Irish language names is a very common occurence today.



    :D



    As Hagar has pointed out, the 'ponc' or 'séimhiú' (dot over consonants) is not the same as a 'síneadh fada' (accent over vowels) and isn't used in the modern Roman script.



    Why? :confused: I'm not writing in the old Gaelic script. I'm writing in the Roman script, which does have dots over the i, even in Irish.

    Well does that not mean that the apostrophe should be in" O Briain" as its not in the old Gaelic script??

    I'm not arguing, just asking.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭Múinteoir


    Well does that not mean that the apostrophe should be in" O Briain" as its not in the old Gaelic script??

    I'm not arguing, just asking.

    No. It's still a case of mixing the punctuation of two languages together, no matter what script it is.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,576 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    I'll buy that... tks.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,496 ✭✭✭Mr. Presentable


    This post has been deleted.

    You cannot use Wikipedia as an authority - it's written by tools like me. It has no qualification. This doesn't mean you are wrong, just that WP is not an authority.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,420 ✭✭✭Dionysus


    Yeah, the local council did that with my driving licence and I just sent it back to them with the standard 'alt', 'ctrl' and vowel/ 'alt', 'ctrl', 'shift' and vowel instructions.

    I did the same when another council did the same to the girlfriend's name. You have to fight them for such basic stuff. The Passport Office, and UCD's Administration are sound though. I respect that. UCD's library is, however, still spending our money on a system that garbles all fadai (why does Boards.ie convert the 'alt', 'ctrl' and vowel into italics?; how do we get the fada here?) and sends you out the most ridiculously named and addressed letters which are a tribute to the fear an phoist.

    It's just ignorance, technological as well as cultural.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭Múinteoir


    Dionysus wrote: »
    (why does Boards.ie convert the 'alt', 'ctrl' and vowel into italics?; how do we get the fada here?)

    That's an Internet Explorer issue. It doesn't happen if you use Firefox, I find.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭Múinteoir


    The anti-fada bureaucrats strike again!
    WHAT'S in a name? A great deal if it's in Irish and requires a fada.

    Yesterday it was revealed that the Department of Social and Family Affairs has been going to extreme lengths to remove the fada from the names of every child born in the State with an Irish language name requiring the accent.

    The department has been effectively changing names such as Seán, Máire and Póilín to Sean, Maire and Poilin.

    The practice has been going on with the names of all children requiring a fada who were being registered for child benefit payments.

    The birth registration data came from the General Registrar's Office with every appropriate síneadh fada in place.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭Múinteoir


    This post has been deleted.

    Word-play in two (arguably three) languages! Well done! :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,595 ✭✭✭MathsManiac


    This post has been deleted.

    ...or maybe the latest terrorist antifada
    ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭Múinteoir


    I found the following t-shirt related to this topic on www.gaelshirt.com :D

    280


  • Registered Users Posts: 154 ✭✭Seoid


    And they wonder why the Irish language is dying...

    I just checked my driving licence and was disappointed to notice no fadas (should that be fadaí or can I apply English plural rules?) on my first name (should be two) and no attempt at either a fada or an apostrophe on my second name (like O Reilly). My passport does have fadas though.

    I think it's the inevitable result of technology and the internet though, especially with shoddy computer systems that can't handle foreign accents. Isn't that why they got rid of the old Irish dots and introduced h instead? Computers can handle it now but they're not set up to - when I sign my name in an email or on a phone text message it often gets received with squares instead of letters where the machine couldn't interpret letters with fadas.
    Maybe if I was in France I wouldn't have this problem???

    I think it's a shame that the government doesn't support people using Gaelic names but it's really not an issue for most people.

    When writing in person or for a book/magazine it's impolite not to spell a person's name whatever way they want it spelled and leave language out of it.
    But on the other hand when people ask how to spell my name I usually leave out the fadas because it's difficult enough to a foreigner as it is!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭Múinteoir


    Seoid wrote: »
    I just checked my driving licence and was disappointed to notice no fadas (should that be fadaí or can I apply English plural rules?) on my first name (should be two) and no attempt at either a fada or an apostrophe on my second name (like O Reilly).

    That's odd. All the 'síntí fada' are there on my driving licence. You definitely wrote them on the application? If so, you should complain to the Language Commissioner about it at eolas@coimisineir.ie, since it's basically a language rights' issue. The more people stay quiet about it, they more they'll get away with it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 154 ✭✭Seoid


    Thanks - I'd never heard of them. Will have to check if I still have a copy of the original application form - I was so excited to have passed the test I don't think I was paying too much attention!

    I just think people should be able to spell their own name the proper way whatever language that is in but especially when they're in their own country!
    But there are a lot of people with weird Anglo-Gaelic names that are neither English nor Irish though.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭conchubhar1


    Seoid wrote: »
    And they wonder why the Irish language is dying...

    I think it's the inevitable result of technology and the internet though, especially with shoddy computer systems that can't handle foreign accents. Isn't that why they got rid of the old Irish dots and introduced h instead? Computers can handle it now but they're not set up to - when I sign my name in an email or on a phone text message it often gets received with squares instead of letters where the machine couldn't interpret letters with fadas.
    Maybe if I was in France I wouldn't have this problem???

    I think it's a shame that the government doesn't support people using Gaelic names but it's really not an issue for most people.

    When writing in person or for a book/magazine it's impolite not to spell a person's name whatever way they want it spelled and leave language out of it.
    But on the other hand when people ask how to spell my name I usually leave out the fadas because it's difficult enough to a foreigner as it is!

    why irish is dieing, is it?, is more complex than that

    all new computers can work fadas - if one says they cant is a pure lie or ignorance.

    the dot can still be used if you install the font type on your comp - easily found.

    impolite indeed.

    well if you dont explain the fadas - they will spell it wrong? and it wont be impolite as you didnt mention them


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,889 ✭✭✭tolosenc


    It's very bad practice, and I know people who would be quite offended by it. I would never have considered doing it.

    However, while we're on the subject of the interface of names between the two languages, I'd like to voice a greivence, if I may.

    My name is Richard, however when I participated in Gael Linn debates in Secondary School (for example), I was consistently referrred to as "Risteard". I ask the Cathaoirleach not to, but that didn't work. STOP IT.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭conchubhar1


    true dat^

    it is not your name, your name is richard


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,842 ✭✭✭Micilin Muc


    Múinteoir wrote: »
    Take a relatively famous Irish language name like Dara Ó Briain. For argument's sake, we can take it that the surname is historically anglicised as O'Brien (from the Irish, meaning 'Grandson of Brian'). But under no circumstances should anyone be writing O'Briain, not to mention the print overload of Ó'Briain.


    According to this interview with Dara, it was Dara himself that dropped the fada and put in an apostrophe for simplicity's sake.


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