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The "First" Irish people

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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    fontanalis wrote: »
    Is there any truth to the charge that they moved the seat of the high king to Tara from a more western location?

    I don't think we'll ever know tbh. Obviously the Connachta were mostly based out of Cruachain Ai in what's now Roscommon but I think Tara was always associated with High Kingship. Before the rise of the Uí Neill it would seem that some of the "high kings" were of the Laigin. For example the annals talk about the death of "Mac Caírthinn Uí Enechglaiss" in battle in Kingdom of Brega (Eastern-Meath) in the mid 5th century. What's interesting is that there is an Ogham stone in Slane that verifies the existance of this king. The stone says
    "MAQI CAIRATINI AVI INEQUAGLASI"

    It's reckoned he was killed in the battle that saw the Uí Neill take Tara. Generally it's reckoned that history was rewritten by the Uí Neill in the period after their ascent to power. For example the oldest know king list dates to period 700-720 and is called "Baile Chuind Chétchathaig" (Baile = Buile = mania/frenzy, in this case the vision frenzy of Conn of hundred battles) which has Conn having a vision about the future kings. Or in other words justifying the Uí Neill pocession of the throne as it had been predicted by Conn.

    Propaganda and rewriting is fairly common thoughout history. For example the Dál gCais wrote "Cogad Gáedel re Gallaib" (the war of the irish with the foreigner) to emphasise Brian Boru defeat over the "wicked pagan" vikings.

    Anyways if you had sent your 23andme sample in early december you should log in and see if there is an update. Mine says:
    Lab processing complete. Data loaded on January 22, 2011. Allow 3 business days for Quality Control.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    Data processing complete; three days and I'll know.
    What did yours reveal?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    fontanalis wrote: »
    Data processing complete; three days and I'll know.
    What did yours reveal?

    Well it confirmed that I was 100% European and placed me right in the middle of the Irish population cluster. Interesting I'm a carrier of a gene that can cause the mild form of Haemochromotosis (you need to have two copies to suffer from the condition) which is interesting as we have the highest levels of Haemochromotosis in the world (it's believe it might originate in "Celtic" populations)

    Once Dienekes reopens the submission period I'll submit it to the Dodecad project so I can get a more fine grain result on the specific ancestor clusters. Given that I'm in the middle of the Irish cluster I would reckon my genetic admixture is fairly typical of most Irish people eg. 65%~ North European, 25-27%~ South European, 7-10% West Asian

    My wife who is a Filipina comes back as 87% Asian, 12% European and <1% African, not surprising as one of her Great-Gandfathers was Spanish.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    I still can't get my head around the admixture percentages; take the 7% West Eurasian, what does that mean?
    Are you aware fo any studies focusing on Irish ancestry that I can give my results to?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    fontanalis wrote: »
    I still can't get my head around the admixture percentages; take the 7% West Eurasian, what does that mean?
    Are you aware fo any studies focusing on Irish ancestry that I can give my results to?

    Well it appears to be made up possibly of two things.
    1. Agriculture developed in the middle east (Fertile crescent), as a result the first farmers would have some west-asian admixture
    2. It appears that the proto-Indo Europeans assimilated a population with a "west asian" genetic profile at a very early stage

    With regards the Indo-European theory this can be seen with "west asian" admixture in all Indo-European language populations in Europe. you don't see it however in the Basques who telling speak a non-IE language.

    The modal population for this component appears to be in a population sampled in Dagestan (Caucasus). The modal population for "South European" is the population in Sardinia, whereas the highest percentage for "North European" is among the Finns and Lithuanian

    http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2010/12/fine-scale-admixture-in-europe.html.

    The Dodecad project currently has 8 Irish participants. It's not accepting submissions at the moment but when he opens it up again I'm going to submit my raw data.
    http://dodecad.blogspot.com/

    Irish_D_10.png


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    My data is up; I2b1. Was expecting M222.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Well Haplogroup I tends to make up the bulk of the Irish male population that isn't R1b, you could be potentially one of the very first Irish or you could be a viking ;)

    I believe there is a specific subclade of I2b1 that appears to have developed in Britian and Ireland (I2b1a) generally the best place to go for Y-Chromosome testing is familytreedna. They will give you STR markers on your Y which can be used to see if you belong to a specific cluster of I2b1 they will also do further testing further down the line to see if you belong to a specific sub-haplogroup. I did all my Y testing with them a couple months ago.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    dubhthach wrote: »
    Well Haplogroup I tends to make up the bulk of the Irish male population that isn't R1b, you could be potentially one of the very first Irish or you could be a viking ;)

    I believe there is a specific subclade of I2b1 that appears to have developed in Britian and Ireland (I2b1a) generally the best place to go for Y-Chromosome testing is familytreedna. They will give you STR markers on your Y which can be used to see if you belong to a specific cluster of I2b1 they will also do further testing further down the line to see if you belong to a specific sub-haplogroup. I did all my Y testing with them a couple months ago.

    A bloody blow in! Interesting stuff, a lot of digging around to do.
    Also maternal haplogroup H3.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    fontanalis wrote: »
    A bloody blow in! Interesting stuff, a lot of digging around to do.
    Also maternal haplogroup H3.

    Well no not necessary. If any male lineage in Europe could be regarded as "Native european" then it's probably Haplogroup I, it appears to be that of the earliest men in Europe. In comparison R1b which I am developed in central Asia/Plains of Russia. :D

    My Mitrochondrial haplogroup is U4 which appears quite common in Scandinavia/eastern europe. I believe mt Haplogroup H is among the most common in Ireland.

    If you do a search of my username on 23andme we can share see if there are any shared segments.


  • Registered Users Posts: 149 ✭✭eh2010


    dubhthach wrote: »
    The Genghis Khan effect indeed. Niall is generally ranked up there with him in this regard. However more then likely he isn't the originater given that families with other Connachta "dynasties" carry M222 as well (Uí Briúin, Uí Fiachra). One funny thing about M222 that most people don't know is that a very high proportion of O'Neill's (surname not dynastic group) aren't M222. It would seem there was a NPE (non-paternal event) occured sometime between the 12th and 14th century.

    TBH the ruling dynasties of "Gaelic Ireland" are always going to be well represented. What potentially might happen in the future is that a new SNP is found that divides M222. For example there might be one that is only found in M222 men who have names connected with the Uí Briúin (O'Connor, O'Rourke, O'Malley, O'Flaherty etc.) so it's still worthwhile to test men who are M222. I think one thing that would be good is if we have more testing from people bearing "minor" names. What I mean is names that are not connected to kings etc. (my name would be an example: Duffy).

    Here's an image from 2006 regarding Niall's purported STR signature. As you can see it reaches a peak in around Inishowen and in Connacht (Uí Briúin)
    ireland470.645.jpg


    How would you know if you're descended from Niall of the 9 hostages?.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    eh2010 wrote: »
    How would you know if you're descended from Niall of the 9 hostages?.

    Get your Y-Chromosome analysed is the simple answer. There is a specific "Haplotype" (collection of marker repeats) that is associated with men who bear surnames connected to the Uí Néill as well as their relatives in the wider Connachta (Uí Briúin and Uí Fiachrach). There is also a specific SNP (single nucleotide polymorphism) called M222 that defines this specific clade of men. Basically all men who teste positive for M222 are descended from one man who lived 1600-1900 years ago. Given high level of M222 among men bearing surnames connected to Connachta and Uí Néill it looks like Niall probably bore it (if he actually existed). Above map is actually distrubition of men who carry this haplotype. It peaks in Donegal and also in West Roscommon (home of the O'Connors, Flanagans, McDermots and McDonaghs all of the Uí Briúin)


  • Registered Users Posts: 149 ✭✭eh2010


    dubhthach wrote: »
    Get your Y-Chromosome analysed is the simple answer. There is a specific "Haplotype" (collection of marker repeats) that is associated with men who bear surnames connected to the Uí Néill as well as their relatives in the wider Connachta (Uí Briúin and Uí Fiachrach). There is also a specific SNP (single nucleotide polymorphism) called M222 that defines this specific clade of men. Basically all men who teste positive for M222 are descended from one man who lived 1600-1900 years ago. Given high level of M222 among men bearing surnames connected to Connachta and Uí Néill it looks like Niall probably bore it (if he actually existed). Above map is actually distrubition of men who carry this haplotype. It peaks in Donegal and also in West Roscommon (home of the O'Connors, Flanagans, McDermots and McDonaghs all of the Uí Briúin)

    Ok. If you could trace a surname in your family to one of Niall's sons do you think that would mean you're related to him?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    eh2010 wrote: »
    Ok. If you could trace a surname in your family to one of Niall's sons do you think that would mean you're related to him?

    Well it's a start that's for sure. However there's a number of caveats here:
    • Irish genealogies were tampered with for political purposes
    • Non-Paternal Events (NPE) occur

    For example it looks like the main line of the O'Neill family suffered a NPE event probably back in 12-14th century. There are O'Neill's who are M222 but majority aren't see:
    http://www.jogg.info/22/ONeill.pdf

    O'Neill's are of the Cinél Eoghain which are descendants of Niall's son Eoghan. Though in their case they are specifically the descendants of Niall Glundubh who was High King of Ireland and killed fighting the Vikings in 919AD (or thereabouts)


  • Registered Users Posts: 221 ✭✭tomasocarthaigh


    Anyone familiar with Travellers legends of them being the origional Irish folk before the arrival of the last of the Celts?

    Its an interesting theory, and the Shelta language that they have could very well the the remnants of the "Iron" language of the bards (from whom the Wards take their name... Mac an Bhaird).

    Feedback please, and no need for deragatory comments...



  • Registered Users Posts: 221 ✭✭tomasocarthaigh


    fontanalis wrote: »
    Is there any truth to the charge that they moved the seat of the high king to Tara from a more western location?

    There is a site outside of Kilbeggan in Westmeath that is supposed to be more important than Tara... cant remeber its name now...


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,962 ✭✭✭GhostInTheRuins


    There is a site outside of Kilbeggan in Westmeath that is supposed to be more important than Tara... cant remeber its name now...

    Crúachain/Rathcroghan perhaps?

    I know there was another place over in the west which some chap had a website about, he claimed it was the real main royal site in Ireland, and not Tara. I can't remember now exactly but he claimed that moving the royal site to Tara in legend was an Ui Neill conspiracy or something. He had a book and everything but I can't find the website.


  • Registered Users Posts: 277 ✭✭Farcheal


    If you look at the historical evidence, ot makes sense, Irish scottish and manx are Giodlic langiages I believe the originate fromi Galician a language in north westwrn spain. However Wales, Brittany and maybe Cornwall were Brythonic. so was England but it was changed due to invasion. Scottish was Pictish umtil Dal raita or the scoti took over from Ireland. It seems as if Gaelic culture comes from celtic iberians, whilst brythonic from brittany, basically 2 surving isolated celt groups.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Anyone familiar with Travellers legends of them being the origional Irish folk before the arrival of the last of the Celts?

    Its an interesting theory, and the Shelta language that they have could very well the the remnants of the "Iron" language of the bards (from whom the Wards take their name... Mac an Bhaird).

    Feedback please, and no need for deragatory comments...
    Worthwhile piece on the subject here. Dubhtach's opinion would be interesting.

    5. Conclusion (I'm sure a certain plastic Irishman will moan ; ))

    The turbulent history of Ireland, with its waves of invasions and immigrations, offers an unique opportunity to examine population structure in relation to biological variation and population history. In this study, three main conclusions can be made. First, these analyses support Crawford's (1975) hypotheses concerning the Irish origins and genetic affinity of the Travellers. Judging from the .R-matrix analyses, the Travellers are undoubtedly of Irish ancestry, due to their proximity to the centroid. Furthermore, the Travellers clustered with several heterogeneous counties in Ireland, including Wexford and Westmeath. Therefore, these data support that the origin of the Travellers was not a sudden event; rather a gradual formation of populations. Indeed, the Travellers probably originated with craftsmen and artisans forced to leave their monasteries (Crawford 1975). Later, their population grew as they were joined by various Irish groups that were forced to leave their homes because of various calamities and political upheavals (i.e. the potato famine and the repression of British occupation) (Crawford 1975). However, the timing of the Traveller origin is not certain and may have predated the historical period (e.g. Ni Shuinear 1996).

    Second, our analyses suggest that at the level of the country, the major influence on population structure was population history. Although our analyses suggest that Ireland is genetically homogeneous, several distinct subpopulations were identified that may have been formed because of historical gene flow. These findings further confirm that the hierarchical level of analysis has an important impact on the results of studies of the population structure of Ireland (Relethford et al. 1997, North et al. 1999). Indeed, recent research by North and colleagues identified different spatial patterns of biological variation, depending on the level of analysis (North et al.)

    Third, the .R-matrix analyses support Relethford and Crawford's (1995) hypothesis concerning the distinctiveness of the midland counties due to Viking influence. In this analysis, the midland counties clustered with Norway.
    (The source link for review seems to be dead)


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,798 ✭✭✭goose2005


    eh2010 wrote: »
    How would you know if you're descended from Niall of the 9 hostages?.

    You definitely are; however, this shows if he is your male-line (father's father's father's ... father) ancestor.

    Anyone familiar with Travellers legends of them being the origional Irish folk before the arrival of the last of the Celts?

    Its an interesting theory, and the Shelta language that they have could very well the the remnants of the "Iron" language of the bards (from whom the Wards take their name... Mac an Bhaird).

    Feedback please, and no need for deragatory comments...

    There were always itinerant people in Ireland, migrant labourers, evicted peasants, tradesmen, "gombeens", etc. There's nothing to suggest that Travellers are any more than the descendants of those who chose not to emigrate/move to towns in the 19th century. Shelta is entirely derived from English and Irish.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    The subject of travellers' possible origins was well covered previously in this forum here
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056275415


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    Anyone familiar with Travellers legends of them being the origional Irish folk before the arrival of the last of the Celts?

    Its an interesting theory, and the Shelta language that they have could very well the the remnants of the "Iron" language of the bards (from whom the Wards take their name... Mac an Bhaird).

    Feedback please, and no need for deragatory comments...


    its an interesting one alright and a sizeable amount of evidence to support it, though its not without controversy. My gf is a traveller and is doing a historic study of music in the community for a phd. She did find an intersting reference to nomadic 'tinkers' in a 12th century writting. dont have the reference handy im afraid


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Well going on "Blood of the Travellers" TV program which unfortunatley was very light the following conclusions could be reached:
    • Ward was a carrier of M222 (subset of L21) on his Y-Chromosome -- connected to Connachta/Uí Néill
    • Collins was told he belonged to most common Y-Haplogroup in Ireland: ergo they must mean L21 (70-80% of all Irishmen)
    • The women had Mitochondrial Haplogroup H -- again very common in Ireland
    • Travellers cluster together, the closest non-traveller population to them are "settled Irish"
    • Potential time of divergence between the two populations was put between 500 and 800 years ago

    Travellers in general have native Irish surnames often based on those of ruling families from west of Ireland (Ward, McDonagh, Connors etc.) Barrett was an exception as they are Cambro-Norman who became more Irish then the Irish themselves -- held lands in Mayo.

    Most people seem to forget that there was always a high level of nomadism in Ireland during middle ages. Be it from tradesmen/craftsmen to travelling poets (Ward = mac an Bhaird eg. son of the poet) entertainers. Likewise alot of irish population were pastorlists who would would move between two areas with their cattle depending on seasons of the year.

    Anyways as mentioned above the travellers tested form their own "cluster" this is probably due to the fact that as intermarriage between the two communities fell (due to societal issues post 17th century) you ended up getting a degree of drift between the two populations.

    From a y-Haplogroup point of view (classification of a man's Y-Chromosome). Most men in Ireland belong to Haplogroup R1b. The most common branch of R1b in an Irish context is called L21 (R1b-L21). It probably first arose in one man between 3700 and 4,000 years ago (2000BC-1700BC). The current evidence points to Northern/Eastern France as probably source location.

    R1b-deepClade.png

    Men connected to the Connachta/Uí Néill tend to carry the marker M222. This is a sub-branch of wider L21 (eg. all M222+ men are L21+). Currently dating puts it at between 1600 and 2000 years ago, thence connection often made to Niall (who lived 4th/5th century)


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Farcheal wrote: »
    If you look at the historical evidence, ot makes sense, Irish scottish and manx are Giodlic langiages I believe the originate fromi Galician a language in north westwrn spain. However Wales, Brittany and maybe Cornwall were Brythonic. so was England but it was changed due to invasion. Scottish was Pictish umtil Dal raita or the scoti took over from Ireland. It seems as if Gaelic culture comes from celtic iberians, whilst brythonic from brittany, basically 2 surving isolated celt groups.

    Eh no, Goidelic and Brythonic probably broke up about 900BC going on the work done by computer linguists. More then likely you had a large area of Western Europe covered by "Proto-Celtic" speaking populations in the late Bronze age. This would probably correspond with "Atlantic Bronze Age" culture in the west and Urnfield culture in the east.

    At a later stage a sound change occurred in continental celtic (Q->P -- simplified notation). This probably occurred in area that was Urnfield culture and from which Hallstat and La Tène material culture sprang. Over time the sound-shift spread. However neither Ireland or Iberia underwent the sound shift as both were at this stage at peripheral of "Celtic speaking Europe".

    Our closest genetic matches are with Western Britain, in otherwords areas that are/were Brythonic speaking the longest.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    There is a site outside of Kilbeggan in Westmeath that is supposed to be more important than Tara... cant remeber its name now...

    The Hill of Uisneach (Cnoc Uisnigh) which was regarded as the center of Ireland is ancient times (The navel) and which all provincial boundaries were suppose to meet.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hill_of_Uisneach

    Of course the actual geographical center isn't the Hill of Uisneach but it's near by, so wasn't a bad effort by ancient people who didn't have GPS ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 277 ✭✭Farcheal


    People I would just like to clear up if there is any misconception. The Uí Néill are not the same as the O'Neill. It is not the continuation of that dynasty. Uí Néill is Niall of the Nine hostages, O'Neill is a lesser Subject also named Niall. Just to prove this theory, trinity College did a survey on 80 O'Neill's for the original Niall's DNA and only 5 of them came back with results indicating they were his descendents.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Farcheal wrote: »
    People I would just like to clear up if there is any misconception. The Uí Néill are not the same as the O'Neill. It is not the continuation of that dynasty. Uí Néill is Niall of the Nine hostages, O'Neill is a lesser Subject also named Niall. Just to prove this theory, trinity College did a survey on 80 O'Neill's for the original Niall's DNA and only 5 of them came back with results indicating they were his descendents.

    The Ó Néill claim descent from Niall Glúndubh (Black-knee) who was High-King of Ireland from 916-919AD and was killed in battle with the Dublin vikings. they are however members of the Northern Uí Néill via membership of the Cinél nEoghain. What seems to have happened though is that the mainline of the O'Neill family underwent a NPE (non-paternal Event). This ties in probably with the period when the Ó Néill's lost their position in the kingship of the Cinél nEoghain to the Mac Lochlainn. When they came back into power in 13th century their powerbase had shifted to east Tyrone.

    There are men who bear surname O'Neill who are M222, but it's apparant that mainline of the family is not of this lineage. Of course you see similiar belief bout interference in the line during the 16th century with the case of Aodh Mór Ó Néill (Hugh O'Neill -- Earl of Tyrone). You also have to remember that there are O'Neill families from other parts of countries who claim descent from completely different Niall's.

    Article was published about it in Journal of Genetic Genealogy couple years ago:
    jogg.info/22/ONeill.pdf


  • Registered Users Posts: 277 ✭✭Farcheal


    dubhthach wrote: »
    The Ó Néill claim descent from Niall Glúndubh (Black-knee) who was High-King of Ireland from 916-919AD and was killed in battle with the Dublin vikings. they are however members of the Northern Uí Néill via membership of the Cinél nEoghain. What seems to have happened though is that the mainline of the O'Neill family underwent a NPE (non-paternal Event). This ties in probably with the period when the Ó Néill's lost their position in the kingship of the Cinél nEoghain to the Mac Lochlainn. When they came back into power in 13th century their powerbase had shifted to east Tyrone.

    There are men who bear surname O'Neill who are M222, but it's apparant that mainline of the family is not of this lineage. Of course you see similiar belief bout interference in the line during the 16th century with the case of Aodh Mór Ó Néill (Hugh O'Neill -- Earl of Tyrone). You also have to remember that there are O'Neill families from other parts of countries who claim descent from completely different Niall's.

    Article was published about it in Journal of Genetic Genealogy couple years ago:
    jogg.info/22/ONeill.pdf

    .....Ok, you obviously know your stuff, compared to an Amateur history buff such as I :o But are we off topic here?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Farcheal wrote: »
    .....Ok, you obviously know your stuff, compared to an Amateur history buff such as I :o But are we off topic here?

    Well it connects in. On male line lineages it appears that there has been mass replacement compared to what would have been here in Mesolithic (Stone age hunter-gathers) era which would have been first settlers in Ireland from about 10k years ago (8k BC). Now to point out the Y-Chromosome is just 2% of a man's genome. It is passed only from father to son. As a result of your 16 great-great-great-grandfathers you only carry the Y-Chromsome of 1 (Direct male line)

    The oldest known ancient-DNA remains that are R1b+ only date from 3,000 years ago and were found in the Liechtenstein cave in Germany. Likewise the vast bulk of ancient-DNA from neolithic sites are from different Y-Haplogroups such as I* and G* (The Iceman Ötzi belonged to Haplogroup G2a4).

    R1b and it's "brother" R1a is associated with Indo-European languages. R1b* seems more associated with modern Centum languges (Celtic, Italic, Germanic) whereas R1a is more associated with Satem languages (Slavic, Indic, Iranic, Baltic etc.)

    If travellers were indeed a "pre-Celtic" surviving population. Then you would expect that their Y-DNA might have higher amounts of non R1b (particulary R1b-L21) in it. For example Haplogroup I2* appears to be quite ancient in Ireland, likewise Haplogroup E in Ireland could be connected to arrival of agriculture.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    dubhthach wrote: »
    Well it connects in. On male line lineages it appears that there has been mass replacement compared to what would have been here in Mesolithic (Stone age hunter-gathers) era which would have been first settlers in Ireland from about 10k years ago (8k BC). Now to point out the Y-Chromosome is just 2% of a man's genome. It is passed only from father to son. As a result of your 16 great-great-great-grandfathers you only carry the Y-Chromsome of 1 (Direct male line)

    The oldest known ancient-DNA remains that are R1b+ only date from 3,000 years ago and were found in the Liechtenstein cave in Germany. Likewise the vast bulk of ancient-DNA from neolithic sites are from different Y-Haplogroups such as I* and G* (The Iceman Ötzi belonged to Haplogroup G2a4).

    R1b and it's "brother" R1a is associated with Indo-European languages. R1b* seems more associated with modern Centum languges (Celtic, Italic, Germanic) whereas R1a is more associated with Satem languages (Slavic, Indic, Iranic, Baltic etc.)

    If travellers were indeed a "pre-Celtic" surviving population. Then you would expect that their Y-DNA might have higher amounts of non R1b (particulary R1b-L21) in it. For example Haplogroup I2* appears to be quite ancient in Ireland, likewise Haplogroup E in Ireland could be connected to arrival of agriculture.
    Forgive my total ignorance (I find it difficult to get my head around this material :o) but do travellers exhibit any differences to the wider Irish population - do they have traces of Haplogroup 12* or E or any pre Celtic markers?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    slowburner wrote: »
    Forgive my total ignorance (I find it difficult to get my head around this material :o) but do travellers exhibit any differences to the wider Irish population - do they have traces of Haplogroup 12* or E or any pre Celtic markers?

    Well the problem is that we probably don't have enough samples. Before the "Blood of the travellers" program I don't think there had been any genetic testing research involving Irish Travellers. The general implication was that they in general matched the "settled community". Here's one high level sample I've come across of Irish male haplogroups
    • I1: 7%
    • I2* + I2a: 2%
    • I2b: 4%
    • R1a: 3%
    • R1b: 79%
    • G: 1%
    • J2: 1.5%
    • J* + J1: 0%
    • E1b1b: 2%
    • T: 0%
    • Q: 0%
    • N: 0%

    that's taken from here: http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

    Haplogroup R1a is often associated with Vikings in an Irish context (it's quite common in scandinavia). Haplgroup I1* is associated with Germanic Europe so could be connected to both Vikings and English.

    There was a study done on Haplogroup R1b distrubition in Europe there recently for the "Royal Society". They had a total of 476 Irish samples in it. The R1b breakdown was following:

    R1b-L11+ = 87.61% -- includes all subclades

    L11 is the first marker in the tree above. (image in previous post) They further broke it down by testing for some of the main subclades markers such as U106, P312, U152, L21 etc. The breakdown for Ireland was following
    • P312* (negative for L21, U152): 8.40%
    • L21+ (ergo P312+): 70.59%
    • U152+ (ergo P312+, L21-): 2.31%
    • U106+ (ergo P312-): 5.25%
    • L11* (L11+ but U106-, P312-): 1.05%

    All the P312+ came to: 81.30% (inclusive of L21 and U152) this clade is most prevalent in parts of Europe that was once either Italic or Celtic speaking (Though it also shows up in scandinavian coast in it's subclade L238). It's brother clade U106 has an association with Germanic speakers. As does Haplogroup I1*


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