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Is there a need for the word 'atheist'?

  • 24-04-2012 1:32pm
    #1
    MisterEpicurus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 588 ✭✭✭


    Imagine the following conversation;

    Person A: I believe in ghosts, there must be something beyond the natural realm.
    Person B: Personally, I don't believe in the existence of ghosts, there's no evidence whatsoever.
    Person A: Oh, so you're an aghostist?
    Person B: Yes

    This is self-evidently stupid.

    Shouldn't you only need terms for individuals who believe something, rather than a negated form for people who do not accept it? Placing the word in the negative ('a-theist') seems to imply a loss for not believing, or that it's a norm to believe. If it's needless for the supernatural ghost, then why not for the supernatural god?

    Wouldn't it just be suitable to say you do not believe in X rather than attaching a label? A label also implies a certain group of values, but given that people who don't believe in god don't have this, then surely having a label is superfluous.

    Any thoughts?


Comments

  • #2
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    I've found its easier in social situations to say 'I'm atheist' than get into a long winded explanation of why I don't follow any faith. Example: Will you be having a church wedding? No, I'm atheist. Will you be at mass? No, I'm atheist. I find it a clumsy handle, but one that I need to clutch at. It's easier for people to accept you're in SOME box (Catholic, Jewish, Atheist) than none.


  • #3
    zuzuzu
    Registered Users Posts: 56 ✭✭zuzuzu


    This reminds me of a story that happened last week. My friend and I were walking through town and she met a friend she hadn't seen in a while and he dropped into the conversation that he was over attending an atheist convention?

    Do these things exist or was he taking the Michael?


  • #4
    Galvasean
    Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    zuzuzu wrote: »
    This reminds me of a story that happened last week. My friend and I were walking through town and she met a friend she hadn't seen in a while and he dropped into the conversation that he was over attending an atheist convention?

    Do these things exist or was he taking the Michael?

    The Michael Nugent perhaps! :pac:


  • #5
    sbsquarepants
    Registered Users Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    zuzuzu wrote: »
    This reminds me of a story that happened last week. My friend and I were walking through town and she met a friend she hadn't seen in a while and he dropped into the conversation that he was over attending an atheist convention?

    Do these things exist or was he taking the Michael?

    I always find it a bit odd that people are willing to pay to go to a lecture or conference or similar to hear someone talk about what they don't believe in.
    But apparently, they are out there!:)


  • #6
    Gregor Samsa
    Registered Users Posts: 8,881 ✭✭✭Gregor Samsa


    If 90% of society believed in ghosts, organisations promoting ghost belief were prevent, the purported existence of ghosts was given mention in our Constitution, and ghost-related ceremonies were regarded my the vast majority as the standard for life events such as birth, marriage and death, then a term like "aghostist" wouldn't seem so ridiculous.

    Language has a habit of filling holes in itself when required. "Atheist" wouldn't be a word if it wasn't needed.

    The word "atheist" is just shorthand for "I don't believe in god". You're saying the same thing either way.

    Any misunderstanding of the label is a different issue. Do you think that people wouldn't make the same unfounded assumptions about people if they just said "I don't believe in god" instead of "atheist"?


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  • #7
    Gregor Samsa
    Registered Users Posts: 8,881 ✭✭✭Gregor Samsa


    sbsquarepants wrote: »
    I always find it a bit odd that people are willing to pay to go to a lecture or conference or similar to hear someone talk about what they don't believe in.
    But apparently, they are out there!:)

    I haven't been to one, but I assume an "atheist conference" would involve a bit more than a guy standing up, saying "I don't believe in God", a quick round of applause, and everyone goes home.

    This forum alone is testament to the diverse range of topics - philosophical, social and political - that could be discussed at such a conference.


  • #8
    Michael Nugent
    Registered Users Posts: 1,086 ✭✭✭Michael Nugent


    In an ideal world there wouldn’t be a need for the word atheist, but in the real world there is a need for it. In practice, it describes a person who has a significantly different world view about the sources of reality and morality than has a person who believes in a god. The etymology of the word is less important than its use as a tool of communication.

    With regard to atheist conferences, the next European one is in Cologne on May 25-27.

    You can get further details at

    http://www.ibka.org/en/convention2012


  • #9
    sbsquarepants
    Registered Users Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    phutyle wrote: »
    I haven't been to one, but I assume an "atheist conference" would involve a bit more than a guy standing up, saying "I don't believe in God", a quick round of applause, and everyone goes home.

    This forum alone is testament to the diverse range of topics - philosophical, social and political - that could be discussed at such a conference.

    Ah i know, it's just the term atheist conference is a bit stupid, that's what i was getting at!


  • #10
    Michael Nugent
    Registered Users Posts: 1,086 ✭✭✭Michael Nugent


    sbsquarepants wrote: »
    Ah i know, it's just the term atheist conference is a bit stupid, that's what i was getting at!
    In what way is the term atheist conference a bit stupid?


  • #11
    joseph brand
    Registered Users Posts: 4,537 ✭✭✭joseph brand


    MisterEpicurus wrote: »
    Imagine the following conversation;

    Person A: I believe in ghosts, there must be something beyond the natural realm.
    Person B: Personally, I don't believe in the existence of ghosts, there's no evidence whatsoever.
    Person A: Oh, so you're an aghostist?
    Person B: Yes

    This is self-evidently stupid.

    Shouldn't you only need terms for individuals who believe something, rather than a negated form for people who do not accept it? Placing the word in the negative ('a-theist') seems to imply a loss for not believing, or that it's a norm to believe. If it's needless for the supernatural ghost, then why not for the supernatural god?

    Wouldn't it just be suitable to say you do not believe in X rather than attaching a label? A label also implies a certain group of values, but given that people who don't believe in god don't have this, then surely having a label is superfluous.

    Any thoughts?

    If there was a large 'ghost' following in Ireland, and schools, hospitals and laws were influenced by 'ghost doctrine', then yes, the word aghostist would be necessary.

    There are some who believe in aliens, but because they are in the minority and don't influence, lobby or bother the rest of us, we don't call ourselves alien non-believers.

    Also, the word Atheist is shorter than explaining that you 'don't believe in this god, that god and any other gods'. :pac:


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  • #12
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,336 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    MisterEpicurus wrote: »
    Any thoughts?

    Probably going to be mentioned eventually so I thought I would get it in first. Sam Harris discussed this very point in 2007, making not just the same argument you just did but quite a number of others ones too.

    In his case he did it half because he thought it was interesting and half because he thought it would be better to drum up debate and discussion rather than just trotting out another "meat to the lions of atheism" speech that everyone would automatically agree with.

    At the time it certainly appears to have generated quite a lot of debate with quite a few people lining up to disagree with him. One can listen and make ones own mind up about his points at the link above.


  • #13
    MisterEpicurus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 588 ✭✭✭MisterEpicurus


    phutyle wrote: »
    If 90% of society believed in ghosts, organisations promoting ghost belief were prevent, the purported existence of ghosts was given mention in our Constitution, and ghost-related ceremonies were regarded my the vast majority as the standard for life events such as birth, marriage and death, then a term like "aghostist" wouldn't seem so ridiculous.

    Language has a habit of filling holes in itself when required. "Atheist" wouldn't be a word if it wasn't needed.

    The word "atheist" is just shorthand for "I don't believe in god". You're saying the same thing either way.

    Any misunderstanding of the label is a different issue. Do you think that people wouldn't make the same unfounded assumptions about people if they just said "I don't believe in god" instead of "atheist"?

    I think even saying "I don't believe in god" is too suggestive. I would prefer to say "I'm a naturalist/humanist"; if you say you're a naturalist then it doesn't carry negative connotations, while also implying that nothing 'supernatural' exists, rather than being specific to a god which is what the word 'atheist' does. In addition, even if I were to reject the terms 'naturalist/humanist', I would prefer to say "I don't believe in gods", which is an umbrella term for any belief system. If you only mention god, then it seems petty to just focus on the monotheistic faiths, even if they are as predominant as they are.


  • #14
    MisterEpicurus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 588 ✭✭✭MisterEpicurus


    Michael Nugent wrote: »
    In what way is the term atheist conference a bit stupid?

    I think the standard points drummed out are;

    * Religious people meet in groups as they have shared common beliefs, if atheists do it, then what different are they to religious people?

    * What exactly do atheists talk about given they have decided individually for their own reasons that a god doesn't exist?

    * It might be seen as hypocritical to condemn the likes of the evangelicals in the USA and elsewhere who are preaching to the converted and charging hefty fees, while atheist conferences also have 'idols' (Dawkins etc.) and usually have to pay a substantial entrance fee for some conferences [100 euro in the case of the Atheist conference in Dublin last year for example]

    * It appears arrogant for non-believers to meet and ridicule other people's beliefs while also formulating plans to dismantle their beliefs on a large scale. (Who are they to do this etc.)

    These aren't my points of view, just some of the views I've heard from people who can't understand why atheists have to meet at a conference.


  • #15
    Doctor DooM
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 25,868 Mod ✭✭✭✭Doctor DooM


    To be fair, although Ireland is fairly religious, we don't have the same problems from the religious (or, at least, to the same degree) that many people in other countries do (such as creationists trying their best to destroy science in school) or legislation making it more and more difficult to get contraceptives and the like nearly passing in government halls. In Ireland, "religious" is calling yourself catholic and then mainly ignoring it. Those who go out and protest in the name of religion in streets are often characatured as nutjobs. Look at Rick Perry's recent ad campaign, or his history in charge in Texas, nearly running the state to the ground and then throwing his hands up publicly and asking people to pray to god for a solution instead of, you know, doing his job.

    So, for example, in Texas, I don't find the idea of a conference of people who need to organise to fight these things that unusual at all.


  • #16
    mikhail
    Registered Users Posts: 3,863 ✭✭✭mikhail


    sbsquarepants wrote: »
    Ah i know, it's just the term atheist conference is a bit stupid, that's what i was getting at!
    phutyle wrote: »
    I haven't been to one, but I assume an "atheist conference" would involve a bit more than a guy standing up, saying "I don't believe in God", a quick round of applause, and everyone goes home.
    It would seem a bit stupid to have a National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. I mean, what are they going to talk about? One guy stands up and goes, "Hey, my skin's not white." People applaud. Everyone goes home.


  • #17
    Gregor Samsa
    Registered Users Posts: 8,881 ✭✭✭Gregor Samsa


    MisterEpicurus wrote: »
    I think even saying "I don't believe in god" is too suggestive. I would prefer to say "I'm a naturalist/humanist"; In addition, even if I were to reject the terms 'naturalist/humanist', I would prefer to say "I don't believe in gods", which is an umbrella term for any belief system. If you only mention god, then it seems petty to just focus on the monotheistic faiths, even if they are as predominant as they are.

    Fine if you're writing a philosophical dissertation, but for general conversation, I think you're way over-thinking this. No one is going to think you secretly harbour polytheistic tendencies if you don't pluralise the word. But of course, no one is stopping you from using whatever word(s) you like to describe yourself.

    I'm happy to correct sentence to: The word "atheist" is just shorthand for "I don't believe in gods". The point still stands - you're saying the same thing either way.

    Just be prepared to have a whole set of different misinterpretations thrown at you by the ignorant if you describe yourself as a naturalist ("Is that like a nudist?" or "So, you must have been watching Badger Watch last night").


  • #18
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,226 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    MisterEpicurus wrote: »
    * Religious people meet in groups as they have shared common beliefs, if atheists do it, then what different are they to religious people?
    Very different in many different ways.
    Just as going to a sci-fi convention doesn't make sci-fi a religion.
    MisterEpicurus wrote: »
    * What exactly do atheists talk about given they have decided individually for their own reasons that a god doesn't exist?
    Among other topics, the individual reasons why they are atheists.
    Just looking at the list of talks in any atheist conference answers this question.
    MisterEpicurus wrote: »
    * It might be seen as hypocritical to condemn the likes of the evangelicals in the USA and elsewhere who are preaching to the converted and charging hefty fees, while atheist conferences also have 'idols' (Dawkins etc.) and usually have to pay a substantial entrance fee for some conferences [100 euro in the case of the Atheist conference in Dublin last year for example]
    On the face of it Evangelicals are charging for "salvation" or to hear the "secret to salvation" or for healing or for other shady reasons.
    In an atheist conference you are charged to hear a talk by a person that you might find interesting.
    MisterEpicurus wrote: »
    * It appears arrogant for non-believers to meet and ridicule other people's beliefs while also formulating plans to dismantle their beliefs on a large scale. (Who are they to do this etc.)
    Well anything non-believers do could appear arrogant to believers.
    The act of "knowing everything" or "putting yourself before God" is apparently arrogant so by just being a non-believer you're arrogant.

    (And meanwhile believing that you personally know the creator of the universe and have some special insight into his thinking is apparently humble.)


  • #19
    joseph brand
    Registered Users Posts: 4,537 ✭✭✭joseph brand


    phutyle wrote: »
    Fine if you're writing a philosophical dissertation, but for general conversation, I think you're way over-thinking this. No one is going to think you secretly harbour polytheistic tendencies if you don't pluralise the word. But of course, no one is stopping you from using whatever word(s) you like to describe yourself.

    I'm happy to correct sentence to: The word "atheist" is just shorthand for "I don't believe in gods". The point still stands - you're saying the same thing either way.

    Just be prepared to have a whole set of different misinterpretations thrown at you by the ignorant if you describe yourself as a naturalist ("Is that like a nudist?" or "So, you must have been watching Badger Watch last night").

    Or both. Watching badgers on tv, sittin' in the nip. :D


  • #20
    bnt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,955 ✭✭✭✭bnt


    If there was no sound, there would be no need for the word "silence".
    If no-one ate meat, there would be no need for the word "vegetarian".
    Yes, the word "atheism" exists because of and in opposition to theism. But we do have religion, just as we have meat, and so there's a word for its absence. No need to over-analyse the situation, it's just useful language.

    From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, ‘Look at that, you son of a bitch’.

    — Edgar Mitchell, Apollo 14 Astronaut



  • #21
    sponsoredwalk
    Registered Users Posts: 3,038 ✭✭✭sponsoredwalk


    MisterEpicurus wrote: »
    Placing the word in the negative ('a-theist') seems to imply a loss for not believing, or that it's a norm to believe. If it's needless for the supernatural ghost, then why not for the supernatural god?
    MisterEpicurus wrote: »
    Wouldn't it just be suitable to say you do not believe in X rather than attaching a label? A label also implies a certain group of values, but given that people who don't believe in god don't have this, then surely having a label is superfluous.
    MisterEpicurus wrote: »
    too suggestive

    MisterEpicurus wrote: »
    if you say you're a naturalist then it doesn't carry negative connotations, while also implying that nothing 'supernatural' exists,

    I think you care far too much about what words might (:eek:) imply to some phantom interlocutor, the policeman inside your head needs a bit of a shaking up :cool:


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  • #22
    Banbh
    Registered Users Posts: 1,036 ✭✭✭Banbh


    I use 'non-religious' when talking to the elderly, children and school teachers.
    I only use the word 'atheist' to describe myself when I want to hear that short intake of breath.


  • #23
    London Acid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5 ✭London Acid


    Labels have there ups and downs. It's much easier to explain the foundation of your beliefs by saying your one thing or the other, but you must also realize that by labeling your self, especially with someone who may not be of the same mind with, they might be under the impression that they know everything about your thoughts on the matter. I've always felt atheists don't believe in God, which isn't the same as believing that god doesn't exist. I surmise that the average reasonable person can have all of the evidence presented in the world around us and would not be able to honestly say that they either believe there is a God or believe there is no god. Like Chris Rock says in dogma, It's better to have an Eyedea than a belief.


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