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Dublin Bus workers threaten strike

  • 07-11-2007 10:57am
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,858 ✭✭✭


    Dublin Bus workers based at the company's Harristown depot are reportedly threatening to begin strike action this weekend as part of a row over new routes.

    Two new routes are due to be introduced from the depot on Monday - the 4A from Ballymun to Stradbrook and the 128 from Baldoyle to Rathmines.

    Reports this morning say drivers are threatening to strike because of a dispute regarding where they will start and finish their shifts.

    The drivers reportedly want to start and finish at the Harristown garage near Dublin Airport, while Dublin Bus wants them to do so in the city centre.

    sigh...


«13456717

Comments

  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,252 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dub13


    This seems like a mess,whats the latest on it...?

    From The Independent
    By Breda Heffernan
    Wednesday November 07 2007

    A ROW over new routes is threatening to severely disrupt transport across Dublin city this coming weekend.

    Drivers at Harristown depot, near the airport, said they were likely to be on strike from Sunday as a result of what they said was Dublin Bus management's attempt to force in new scheduling arrangements.

    Two new routes are due to be introduced on Monday -- the 4A, which will run from Ballymun to Stradbrook, and the 128, which will run from Baldoyle to Rathmines through the city centre.

    Unions representing drivers want the start, break and finish to occur at the garage, while Dublin Bus wants some of the routes to start, break and finish in the city centre. Last month the Labour Court heard that the unions' refusal to accept this has meant that some new buses are being left unused and there is a surplus of 60 staff.

    The court ruled in the company's favour and pointed out that workers have already signed up to an agreement that allows services to start, break and finish at individual garages or in the city centre.

    However, a representative from the National Bus and Rail Union (NBRU) said yesterday that the dispute was not about breaks but the company's "incompetence" in managing the new depot.

    "Drivers will break wherever they are asked, all they expect is to start and finish their day's work in the same place and not 11km away. The new schedules will add hours to drivers' working week and will be a complete shambles for passengers. Buses will be waiting in the city for relief drivers who are trying to get there from a depot 11km away. It's a recipe for disaster and our members are saying no to it."

    The Harristown Drivers Association accused Dublin Bus of "acting like bully boys" and forcing a strike in the lead-up to Christmas.

    A spokesperson for Dublin Bus said the two new routes were urgently needed and that the schedules, extra drivers and new buses were all in place and ready to go from Monday.

    The €42m Harristown Garage near Dublin Airport opened in October 2004 and boasts a gym and restaurant.

    In its submission to the Labour Court, the unions said workers were led to believe that all starts, breaks and finishes would be at the garage -- a contention rejected by the company. The court found that there was no written agreement stating this.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,219 ✭✭✭markpb


    From a passenger point of view, I'd side with the drivers on this one - sitting about the city centre waiting for the next driver to turn up is a major pain in the ass.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,252 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dub13


    markpb wrote: »
    From a passenger point of view, I'd side with the drivers on this one - sitting about the city centre waiting for the next driver to turn up is a major pain in the ass.

    I agree and at the moment the drivers are coming from garages that are only a walk way,imagine trying to time it from 11km away.Thats asking for trouble.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,858 ✭✭✭paulm17781


    Is the 4a a new route or are some 4s being changed to 4a?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 419 ✭✭dub_commuter


    I agree with the strike, I abloutely hate the unions, I can't stand them for what they do to this country, but in this case they are right. (Did I really just say that?)

    The reason a lot of Harristown routes are on the whole almost perfect punctuality wise are because of the shift swapping in the depots which enables them to control and fix things pretty easy, and if a bus gets delayed en route it allows them to send another out to recover it.

    By changing in the City Centre, it not only keeps passengers waiting, it also increases the chances of short term delays and cancellations, and also makes short terminations and turning buses early more likely, and it also increases the chances of buses being delayed en route to the start of the route. Interesting to hear this morning that Clontarf drivers are thinking about striking in support.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,107 ✭✭✭John R


    paulm17781 wrote: »
    Is the 4a a new route or are some 4s being changed to 4a?

    It's new. There is a currently a 20min frequency on the 4, the 4a is also due to have a 20min frequency.


    As the 4a has Harristown as it's northern terminus it only makes sense to have all the changeovers there. However Getting from Harristown to Clongriffin for each break would add alot of extra time, particularly around the peak periods when the N32 is a (bus lane free) car park.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,858 ✭✭✭paulm17781


    John R wrote: »
    It's new. There is a currently a 20min frequency on the 4, the 4a is also due to have a 20min frequency.


    As the 4a has Harristown as it's northern terminus it only makes sense to have all the changeovers there. However Getting from Harristown to Clongriffin for each break would add alot of extra time, particularly around the peak periods when the N32 is a (bus lane free) car park.

    Excellent, the frequency will only get better!

    I have issues with the CIE unions but I also agree with them on this. There is nothing worse than the 46A stopping for ages at Donnybrook for a change over. A change over in the city is just as bad. It should always be done at the start / end points of a route.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 371 ✭✭MiniD


    Whatever the problem, a strike is never the answer. Even the threat of a strike is enough to discourage people to use the bus. If I remember right, this is not the first time Harristown depot has threatened strike, or gone on unofficial stoppage. On one occasion, it was because Dublin Bus refused to provide them with an Eazypass for the toll bridge.
    http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0428/dublinbus.html

    It seems they are at it once again...

    On this issue, it is probably worth pointing out that most bus routes already change driver in the city centre. This is due to the fact that not every route passes/terminates at a garage. The new proposed 128 is one of these routes. Under the current plans, it would seem Dublin Bus wants to have these buses in service all day, rather than have hem operating "Out Of Service" to run back to the garage for the driver to change. Surely that's a good thing.

    There are currently 4 frequent routes serving Harristown Depot from the City Centre. The 13,13A, 27B and 83. If a driver needed to get back to the depot to collect their car, then it is very easy. The only difference is that they wouldn't be driving the bus.

    I would think this plan might actually benefit some drivers, who can now head home directly from town, rather than go to the depot. Drivers from other depots have being doing this for years and have no problem with the arrangement. Last month, the Labour Court also found no problem with this arrangement. So why do we have a bunch of drivers threatening the city with a bus strike from Sunday?

    Again, we see the same old argument where the unions and drivers think that operating a bus service is about suiting themselves. I would much rather see a proper service on the 128, than have a batch of buses running "Out Of Service" at various times during the day.


  • Registered Users Posts: 78,218 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    It would appear the 4 will operate to Blackrock Village and the 4a to Stradbrook Road.

    http://www.dublinbus.ie/news_centre/latest_news.asp?action=view&news_id=715
    Routes 4/4a & 128- Bus services on the Malahide, Ballymun and Blackrock Quality Bus Corridors

    New and additional bus services on the Malahide, Ballymun and Blackrock Quality Bus Corridors

    Dublin Bus is planning the following major service improvements;

    New Route 4a
    A new Route 4a will be introduced operating from Harristown via Ballymun, Phibsboro, O’Connell Street and Merrion Road to Stradbrook, Blackrock. This route will operate a 20 minute frequency all day.

    Route 4 extended
    This existing 20 minute service will be extended to Harristown. Between Harristown and Blackrock village, Route 4 and 4a will combine giving a bus every ten minutes on weekdays and every 10-20 minutes on Saturday and Sunday.

    New Route 128
    A new high frequency service between Clongriffin and Rathmines using the Malahide Road QBC. Route 128 will operate from the new development in Clongriffin via Clare Hall, Malahide Road, Fairview, City Centre, St. Stephen’s Green and Rathmines Road to Palmerston Park. Buses will operate every ten minutes on weekdays and every 10-20 minutes on Saturday and Sunday.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 23,865 ✭✭✭✭January


    If they do strike there goes my hopes of getting to work...


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 419 ✭✭dub_commuter


    I would firstly like to say that Harristown Drivers in my opinion are a cut above the other depots, they will help people off the bus with luggage, they will give detailed connections, they will stop for people running for a bus, help old people and they actually communicate with their customers rather than call us names or scream and shout at us, so I think if you feel they couldn't give a toss about us you misguided, every time I have spoke to a member of staff there they always have been interested and happy to help and actually acted upon any comments or questions.

    I used Phibsborough and Donnybrook services for a year and found them completely the opposite of Harristown, they were often very rude, they would not stop the bus for you running for it, they would frequently miss out stops on purpose so you were left a way away from where you want to get off (Running late is not an excuse) ask passengers for directions, leave very early when it's the last boss or simply not turn up, and frequently I heard passengers being referred to as skulls and any questions or advice asked met with grunts or an aggressive nature.
    On this issue, it is probably worth pointing out that most bus routes already change driver in the city centre.
    Correct. However passengers are annoyed greatly sometimes during peak hours whilst the wait on the bus for the change to happen. This is not acceptable.
    Under the current plans, it would seem Dublin Bus wants to have these buses in service all day, rather than have hem operating "Out Of Service" to run back to the garage for the driver to change. Surely that's a good thing.
    But thats not quite correct is it? If they have to terminate their shifts in the City Centre, when the buses do go back to Harristown they will be required to go back out of service from the City Centre, which may be further away from the City than the terminus may be.
    There are currently 4 frequent routes serving Harristown Depot from the City Centre. The 13,13A, 27B and 83. If a driver needed to get back to the depot to collect their car, then it is very easy. The only difference is that they wouldn't be driving the bus.
    Imagine the situation. You work in the office. Every evening, when you have finished your work, you have to go to head office which is 45 minutes away to drop something in, then you head home? Not fair is it?
    I would think this plan might actually benefit some drivers, who can now head home directly from town, rather than go to the depot.
    But the majority of Harristown drivers drive, so more would be inconvenienced than benefit from the changes.
    Drivers from other depots have being doing this for years and have no problem with the arrangement.
    Yes, and I find Harristown Garage the most punctual garage within Dublin Bus, the garages which have the most changes in the City Centre, I find are the most unreliable.
    Again, we see the same old argument where the unions and drivers think that operating a bus service is about suiting themselves. I would much rather see a proper service on the 128, than have a batch of buses running "Out Of Service" at various times during the day.
    Funny that, I and many others who use a route which was previously based at another Garage which switched to Harristown when it opened, after the switch over bedded in I found the route to be much improved, both from the punctuality of the service to the attitude of the drivers, the drivers actually give a toss, which is more than what said before when hearing someone being called a skull was quite common.

    I'm quite happy to stick with my Harristown route thank you very much, and I shall thank my driver every day when I get on and off my bus for the great service he provides day in day out despite the lack of support he receives from head office it is just a shame that the rest of Dublin Bus cannot take a leaf out of Harristown's book and actually treat their customers with respect.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,986 ✭✭✭✭mikemac


    Well I normally love these threads so I can laugh at the crazy reasons the unions threaten strike.
    Sure they'd almost go on strike if the wrong teabags were in the canteen

    However, this seems fairly reasonable.
    What if a driver lets say drives to Harristown and starts his shift.
    He then finishes it and has to pay for transport to get back to the depot to collect his car and go home.
    So it costs them time and money after they finished their shift.

    It's not something worth going on strike over but it seems a valid issue.....for once!

    Edit: Mods, maybe this should be merged with the other thread


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 419 ✭✭dub_commuter


    John R wrote: »
    As the 4a has Harristown as it's northern terminus it only makes sense to have all the changeovers there. However Getting from Harristown to Clongriffin for each break would add alot of extra time, particularly around the peak periods when the N32 is a (bus lane free) car park.
    Drivers are happy to break anywhere. There has never been any debate about where they are to break with any drivers in Harristown. However some of the press have seemed to have got the idea there is a problem with breaks, that is despite both the Harristown Drivers Association and the Unions stating on many occasions that breaks are not an issue,


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,937 ✭✭✭✭Wishbone Ash


    micmclo wrote: »
    He then finishes it and has to pay for transport to get back to the depot to collect his car and go home.
    So it costs them time and money after they finished their shift
    I'd say it's more of a time issue as they are entitled to free transport on their own services.

    A driver starting a shift will presumably have to go to Harristown and park their car and then get a bus into town to collect their own bus.

    EDIT: Oops - I didn't see the other thread! :o


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 371 ✭✭MiniD


    passengers are annoyed greatly sometimes during peak hours whilst the wait on the bus for the change to happen. This is not acceptable.

    Well what's your alternative? A driver has to finish their shift or break at some point in their day. If the route they operate doesn't pass a garage, then what is the alternative? Keeping in mind, to operate a proper service, this bus cannot be taken off the road "Out Of Service" for an hour for a driver to bring it back to the depot.

    A driver taking 2 minutes to change place with a colleague is a lot more productive than driving an empty bus back to a depot.
    But thats not quite correct is it? If they have to terminate their shifts in the City Centre, when the buses do go back to Harristown they will be required to go back out of service from the City Centre, which may be further away from the City than the terminus may be.

    No, the driver simply hands over the bus to another driver at a specified location. For example, a 128 bus may be in service from 6am until 9pm, covering 2 or 3 drivers duties. This bus will stay on route all day and will not return to the depot until late that evening.
    Imagine the situation. You work in the office. Every evening, when you have finished your work, you have to go to head office which is 45 minutes away to drop something in, then you head home? Not fair is it?

    But that's the thing. Driving a bus is not like working in an office. Dublin bus drivers have been finishing shifts in the city centre for years, and heading back to their respective depot. Suddenly, it has become an issue because Harristown is a bit further away than Clontarf or Donnybroook etc.
    Surely, one way around this is to give the driver an extra hours pay to facilitate the travel back to the depot by bus. Isn't this the case already on some routes?
    But the majority of Harristown drivers drive, so more would be inconvenienced than benefit from the changes.

    That's their choice surely. Most garages operate ghost staff buses for early morning shifts.
    Yes, and I find Harristown Garage the most punctual garage within Dublin Bus, the garages which have the most changes in the City Centre, I find are the most unreliable.

    While you're entitled to your opinion, that's all that is. Unless you can provide some factual information confirming the punctuality of garages, it bears no relevance to this discussion.
    A cross-city route suffers from congestion which affects every bus route, regardless of depot.


    I think it's great you've had a positive experience of using Harristown routes. I use a combination of bus routes/garages every day, and find the drivers to be mostly pleasant. All that aside, it is the Harristown drivers/unions who are threatening strike action. I don't find that respectful towards customers.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,845 ✭✭✭trellheim


    From RTE :

    Dublin Bus passengers could face disruption from Monday due to a dispute with drivers.

    Dublin Bus wants drivers from Harristown depot to start, break and finish in the city centre rather than at the depot.

    The company says this will allow it to schedule frequent services on two new routes, however drivers want to return to the depot for all starts, breaks and finishes.
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    Both SIPTU and the NBRU are balloting members for industrial action with the result of these ballots due later this afternoon.

    The Labour Court has backed the new rosters proposed by Dublin Bus, which would be operated by junior drivers.

    Dublin Bus says it is introducing the disputed rosters from Monday morning.



    from me : what's the junior driver thing ? sounds like not all the story is being told.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,219 ✭✭✭markpb


    I presume by junior drivers they mean sparemen and in lieu of the real spareman answering your question, they are drivers who aren't allocated to a specific route yet. They hang around the garage watching TV, playing pool and bitching about customers :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 540 ✭✭✭spareman


    micmclo wrote: »
    Well I normally love these threads so I can laugh at the crazy reasons the unions threaten strike.
    Sure they'd almost go on strike if the wrong teabags were in the canteen
    We supply our own tea bags so thats never going to happen!! (or would it eemm?)
    Seriously though, When was the last time we went on strike for a crazy reason? You make it sound like we are out every other week.


  • Registered Users Posts: 540 ✭✭✭spareman


    markpb wrote: »
    I presume by junior drivers they mean sparemen and in lieu of the real spareman answering your question, they are drivers who aren't allocated to a specific route yet. They hang around the garage watching TV, playing pool and bitching about customers :)
    I wish!! I havent seen the pool table for 3 years, We cover all the B rota work, 10/12 hour duty's and any other crap work that comes up, and we dont bitch about all the passengers, just the one's that annoy us.


  • Registered Users Posts: 78,218 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    spareman wrote: »
    When was the last time we went on strike for a crazy reason?
    Irish Ferries?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,793 ✭✭✭✭Hagar


    micmclo wrote: »
    What if a driver lets say drives to Harristown and starts his shift.
    He then finishes it and has to pay for transport to get back to the depot to collect his car and go home.
    So it costs them time and money after they finished their shift.
    So it's going to cost them time and money to get to and from work?
    I can understand their position and so can everyone else in the country as everyone else has to do it every day!
    We could all arrange a rota and pick them up and drop them home, free of charge of course, if that would be any help.


  • Registered Users Posts: 78,218 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Threads merged.


  • Registered Users Posts: 540 ✭✭✭spareman


    Victor wrote: »
    Irish Ferries?
    Come on will you, have the friggin country went out on that one, If thats the best you can do, thats saying something.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 371 ✭✭MiniD


    Hagar wrote: »
    So it's going to cost them time and money to get to and from work?

    Not if traveling back to the depot is built into their workday and they are paid traveling time.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 551 ✭✭✭meanmachine3


    ok ladies and gentlemen i'll try and be nice about this one. i'll do this in points.
    (1)harristown drivers hold most of the roues in the city together.A prime example of this is the route 39. if there were no harristown drivers working this route ,you would have f... all of a bus service on that route. you'd be waiting up to an hour without these guys.
    (2) i dont know what world markpb is living in. spare drivers are treated like ****. it can take up to 9 years for a spare driver to get a route. these drivers dont know what they're working from one day to another. e.g. a spare driver will only find out about midday today what he's working tomorrow , they cannot tell their partners what time they'll be home at,they cant make any plans to go out. they only time a spare driver can plan ahead is when they are off even then they cant if they've to be up at 3.30am plus the following morning. most spare drivers finish after 9pm at least twice a week when they are supposed to be early. so mark please less of the watching t.v. etc. you have a life they dont.
    (3) travelling time or walking time as it's known are both the same ,and all you get in 30 mins. so drivers have to walk from o'connell street to the back of the airport in 30 mins. (man i wish i had winggggs)
    (4) any job you work you get a morning break and a lunch break. bus drivers only get one break and alot of time that only lasts 30-40 mins even though it's an hour break because if they took their full break again there'd be no bus service.
    (5) if you waited for every runner when your in the city centre you might as well knock of the engine and wait there till your finished.
    (6) sniper alley : anybody living around ongar/huntstown will know whats happened to their bus service at the moment. (any comments on this one i think not)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 551 ✭✭✭meanmachine3


    to save alot of hassle would it be possible for one of the moderators to set up a poll along the lines of
    " do you agree with dublin bus drivers planned strike"


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 371 ✭✭MiniD


    (1)harristown drivers hold most of the roues in the city together.A prime example of this is the route 39. if there were no harristown drivers working this route ,you would have f... all of a bus service on that route. you'd be waiting up to an hour without these guys.

    I presume you mean Euro Duties. This has nothing to do with holding routes together, rather maintaining a proper service in a congested city where the bus simply doesn't have enough priority. These euro duties involve filling gaps in the bus network. There are spare drivers in every bus depot, Harristown may have more than others, but this is down to the nature of the depot itself. Harristown was designed to accommodate more Euro Duties, and therefore will naturally have more spare drivers.
    (2) i dont know what world markpb is living in. spare drivers are treated like ****. it can take up to 9 years for a spare driver to get a route. these drivers dont know what they're working from one day to another...

    I really don't mean to sound patronising, but if a spare driver is unhappy and faces the prospect of working an unstable roster for 9 years, then they should really look for another job. It is probably worth mentioning that shift work suits a lot of people and I would assume not all spare drivers are unhappy with their working arrangements. Only 59% of SIPTU drivers have voted in favour of industrial action.
    (3) travelling time or walking time as it's known are both the same ,and all you get in 30 mins. so drivers have to walk from o'connell street to the back of the airport in 30 mins. (man i wish i had winggggs)

    I'm sure drivers are allowed more than 30 minutes to travel to Harristown. There is no suggestion of walking anywhere other than to a bus stop. The 13/A lists the journey time to Harristown as 35 minutes.

    Isn't there a facility in the city centre, where drivers can clock out? Surely this must be handy for some drivers who don't necessarily need to travel back out to Harristown.
    (6) sniper alley : anybody living around ongar/huntstown will know whats happened to their bus service at the moment. (any comments on this one i think not)

    There is a separate thread on this subject:
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055180242


    MeanMachine, can I ask what the drivers actually want? Surely they realise that it's not possible for every bus route from Harristown Depot to terminate at Harristown bus depot.
    What is the alternative to starting/finishing/breaking in the City Centre?


  • Registered Users Posts: 540 ✭✭✭spareman


    This has nothing to do with holding routes together, rather maintaining a proper service in a congested city where the bus simply doesn't have enough priority.
    Can you tell me the difference between the 2 statements above please, I fail to see one.
    I really don't mean to sound patronising, but if a spare driver is unhappy and faces the prospect of working an unstable roster for 9 years, then they should really look for another job. It is probably worth mentioning that shift work suits a lot of people and I would assume not all spare drivers are unhappy with their working arrangements. Only 59% of SIPTU drivers have voted in favour of industrial action.
    The majority of spare staff are members of the NRBU, Im a spare driver, and I absolutely hate the unstable working hours as does my wife and kids Im sure, but the other terms and conditions are quite favourable, I also like driving buses, should I quit? or should I hang in there for a few more years until I have a route and roster?
    I'm sure drivers are allowed more than 30 minutes to travel to Harristown. There is no suggestion of walking anywhere other than to a bus stop. The 13/A lists the journey time to Harristown as 35 minutes.
    Isn't there a facility in the city centre, where drivers can clock out? Surely this must be handy for some drivers who don't necessarily need to travel back out to Harristown.
    I dont think it matters how much traveling time they get or have thats not the Issue, When harristown opened staff were told all duty's would start and finish in the garage, now they want to change this. Alot of driver's moved to Harristown based on this.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 551 ✭✭✭meanmachine3


    i cant answer what they are looking for,but what i can say is this. harristown was made up the way it is to get alot of buses out of the city centre,thy have their own facilites out there including a staff canteen and a gym which quite alot of drivers use.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 371 ✭✭MiniD


    Can you tell me the difference between the 2 statements above please, I fail to see one.

    There probably is no difference, but I wouldn't call it holding routes together. One of the reasons Harristown was built was to house these extra buses for peak times. Funding was provided for euro duties to provide extra capicity and frequency for certain routes. Harristown euro duties do exactly what they were designed to do.
    Im a spare driver, and I absolutely hate the unstable working hours as does my wife and kids Im sure, but the other terms and conditions are quite favourable, I also like driving buses, should I quit? or should I hang in there for a few more years until I have a route and roster?

    That's a decision you have to make. If you believe it's worth hanging on for a better deal then maybe you should. Lots of jobs require years of working your way up to a good position. When you started in your job, was it made clear it would involve unstable shift work?

    From what I can make out from this dispute, the Labour Court has approved the plans for these new rosters so it seems Dublin Bus has done nothing wrong here.
    I dont think it matters how much traveling time they get or have thats not the Issue,


    from rte.ie

    Drivers say the new rosters will mean they have to start, finish and take their breaks in the city centre rather than at the central depot in Harristown. They say this will prolong their working day.

    What is the issue then? If traveling to Harristown is built into their shift, then how does this prolong their working day?
    When harristown opened staff were told all duty's would start and finish in the garage, now they want to change this. Alot of driver's moved to Harristown based on this.

    But the duties still start and finish in the garage, except you won't be driving an out of service bus to get there.

    I'm not sure what is in your agreed contract of employment, but unless it states you can drive your bus back to the depot, then I don't see the problem. How do you operate a frequent cross city route where every duty starts and finishes in the garage, when the route travels nowhere the depot?

    Again, what do the drivers threatening to strike actually want?


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