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RPT Hours

  • 15-05-2012 2:58pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 525 ✭✭✭


    Has anybody heard of principals being directed to, or it being suggested to them that hours arising from retirements/staff leaving be divided up among potential new staff? I have heard of a lot of situations (including my own) where people are being offered crazily low hours. 11 hours seems to be rich pickings at the moment. I know some of it is down to subject combos and I have heard one principal admitting that it makes timetabling easier, but am looking to find out if this is likely to happen for a lot of jobs next year? I'm losing my hours and am trying to decide between going abroad or hoping for 15+ hours here!


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 15,371 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Haven't been told the allocation in our school yet. Honestly I do believe it depends from school to school. Some principals are great and look after their staff as best they can with regard to hours. Others as you said keep staff on low hours to make timetabling easier, neglecting to think that part time hours do not offer great career prospects in the long run.

    There is something definitely wrong with the system when 11 hours is seen as a good contract.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    Race to the bottom


  • Registered Users Posts: 615 ✭✭✭linguist


    Sorry to hear about your situation vamos. However, it seems unusual from a couple of perspectives:

    1) No principal is able to offer anything to their RPTs yet because the redeployment scheme is ongoing. The received wisdom here is that if this is your first year on RPT, you have no rights and could be displaced. Those on their own hours with 2 or 3 years completed are regarded by the unions as having rights but the Dept disagrees. That said, the Dept didn't try to displace those people last year which suggests they don't fancy testing the position legally.
    2) My understanding is that principals are still waiting for news on the appeals they submitted to their initial allocation. If you know different, please tell us.
    3) It must depend on your subjects and their status in the school (compulsory, combinations, options...) If you're a Spanish teacher and there are 19 hours of Spanish next year, you are entitled to those hours surely. However, if they're reducing the number of class groups in English and the guidance counsellor is also an English teacher, that's where a problem might arise.

    I'm always eager to hear other people's wisdom...very little talk about this so far this spring. What's going on?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,620 ✭✭✭seavill


    [QUOTE=linguist;78736941
    2) My understanding is that principals are still waiting for news on the appeals they submitted to their initial allocation. If you know different, please tell us.
    [/QUOTE]

    Very little talk because of this. It is a complete disgrace that firstly schools are finishing in 2 weeks and no principal is able to tell part time staff anything.

    They have no idea as to when they will even hear. I was first told the start of May, then end, now God knows when. This is the disgrace of it all.

    Talk about redeployment of staff, maybe redeploy some into the directors office and sort your **** out so people can at least try and plan their lives past 2 weeks time. An absolute disgraceful way to run the country but way am I surprised


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 221 ✭✭lestat21


    Speaking of teacher allocations, have people found that the number of retirements hasn't resulted in an equal allocation of teaching hours??

    For example the number of teachers retiring is in double figures but the school is only allocated 2 teachers next year!!! Several teachers received CIDs (not sure if that makes a difference) but the number of CIDs is nowhere close to the number of retirements. Now I don't know the whole situation and understandably the school is planning to appeal this decision but how can they expect schools to cope..????


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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,371 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    lestat21 wrote: »
    Speaking of teacher allocations, have people found that the number of retirements hasn't resulted in an equal allocation of teaching hours??

    For example the number of teachers retiring is in double figures but the school is only allocated 2 teachers next year!!! Several teachers received CIDs (not sure if that makes a difference) but the number of CIDs is nowhere close to the number of retirements. Now I don't know the whole situation and understandably the school is planning to appeal this decision but how can they expect schools to cope..????

    Retirements have no bearing on CIDs. CIDs are only awarded after four years which is completely independent of retirements.

    Schools are not going to be able to hire as many teachers as have retired. Many have to fill hours for the guidance counsellor out of the main allocation, well they all do but if the GC is permanent they have to find them hours which were previously ex quota.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,433 ✭✭✭solerina


    Our allocation is down by 4.5 teacher equivalents for next year, our principal told us today, he has submitted appeals but that his current information....we have 6 people who are now very worried !!


  • Registered Users Posts: 909 ✭✭✭gaeilgebeo


    lestat21 wrote: »
    Speaking of teacher allocations, have people found that the number of retirements hasn't resulted in an equal allocation of teaching hours??

    For example the number of teachers retiring is in double figures but the school is only allocated 2 teachers next year!!! Several teachers received CIDs (not sure if that makes a difference) but the number of CIDs is nowhere close to the number of retirements. Now I don't know the whole situation and understandably the school is planning to appeal this decision but how can they expect schools to cope..????

    Quite a number of teachers who are retiring are A Post holders, therefore aren't on full hours. There have also been more cutbacks to allocation this year. We have had 5 retirements since September. We are still losing nearly the same number of non permanent teachers.


  • Registered Users Posts: 93 ✭✭carolzoo


    god that's a lot. what size school is it approx or number of students? I gather it's a big school? we havn't been told yet our reduction. hope its not something similar.


  • Registered Users Posts: 909 ✭✭✭gaeilgebeo


    carolzoo wrote: »
    god that's a lot. what size school is it approx or number of students? I gather it's a big school? we havn't been told yet our reduction. hope its not something similar.

    We have just over 540 at the minute. Our Guidance C. is going to be teaching some mainstream hours next year. Language and Learning support hours have been cut for next year too. The teacher who does a lot of the resource will be teaching mainstream classes in his subject.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 615 ✭✭✭linguist


    gaeilgebeo: You say there have been five retirements since September but to quote you 'we are still losing nearly the same number of non-permanent teachers'. I don't mean to be pedantic, but that's not really clear.

    Are you saying that you're down 10 teachers next year - the five retirements and five more. Or that five retired, were replaced and their replacements' jobs are now in doubt - in other words potentially down 5 teachers?

    Either way, it seems to me that people are probably being excessively pessimistic here. The initial allocations were bad this year, particularly for DEIS schools or schools that up to now have had significant amounts of language support etc... But it seems to me that the initial allocations are bad every year one way or another and that any decent principal urges people not to worry until the results of the appeals come in. The Government has promised to phase in the cuts to the legacy DEIS posts as much as possible and to help schools worst affected. Let's give them a chance. I very much doubt that any school of 540 pupils will be down five teachers in September.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,359 ✭✭✭whiteandlight


    linguist wrote: »
    gaeilgebeo: You say there have been five retirements since September but to quote you 'we are still losing nearly the same number of non-permanent teachers'. I don't mean to be pedantic, but that's not really clear.

    Are you saying that you're down 10 teachers next year - the five retirements and five more. Or that five retired, were replaced and their replacements' jobs are now in doubt - in other words potentially down 5 teachers?

    Either way, it seems to me that people are probably being excessively pessimistic here. The initial allocations were bad this year, particularly for DEIS schools or schools that up to now have had significant amounts of language support etc... But it seems to me that the initial allocations are bad every year one way or another and that any decent principal urges people not to worry until the results of the appeals come in. The Government has promised to phase in the cuts to the legacy DEIS posts as much as possible and to help schools worst affected. Let's give them a chance. I very much doubt that any school of 540 pupils will be down five teachers in September.


    I assumed that it was 5 teachers not on full hours. Christ if it's 5 22hr posts none of us have a hope for next year!


  • Registered Users Posts: 909 ✭✭✭gaeilgebeo


    linguist wrote: »
    gaeilgebeo: You say there have been five retirements since September but to quote you 'we are still losing nearly the same number of non-permanent teachers'. I don't mean to be pedantic, but that's not really clear.

    Are you saying that you're down 10 teachers next year - the five retirements and five more. Or that five retired, were replaced and their replacements' jobs are now in doubt - in other words potentially down 5 teachers?

    Either way, it seems to me that people are probably being excessively pessimistic here. The initial allocations were bad this year, particularly for DEIS schools or schools that up to now have had significant amounts of language support etc... But it seems to me that the initial allocations are bad every year one way or another and that any decent principal urges people not to worry until the results of the appeals come in. The Government has promised to phase in the cuts to the legacy DEIS posts as much as possible and to help schools worst affected. Let's give them a chance. I very much doubt that any school of 540 pupils will be down five teachers in September.

    We had 5 teachers retire since September.
    We are still losing nearly the same number(nearly 5) of non permanent teachers. Is this clearer for you?

    Yes we are down 4.2 teachers for September. We have over 540 students at the minute. 114 are leaving in 2 weeks. We have 84 first years at the minute. The number of incoming first years is even lower again. This all affects teacher allocation.
    Our numbers have fallen.
    There have been cut backs.
    Some of our retirements have not been replaced.
    We have cut 2 subjects from Leaving Cert.
    We have made another subject at Junior Cert non-compulsory.
    We are cutting a leaving cert programme next year.
    Do you think schools of 540 are exempt from these cutbacks?

    I do not appreciate your insinuation that I am being "excessively pessimistic" and that you "doubt" what I have said is true.

    You have every right to be optimistic about the job situation and "give them a chance", but don't dismiss the advice or opinions of others.


  • Registered Users Posts: 909 ✭✭✭gaeilgebeo


    I assumed that it was 5 teachers not on full hours. Christ if it's 5 22hr posts none of us have a hope for next year!

    Not all of the non-permanent staff are on full hours.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,359 ✭✭✭whiteandlight


    gaeilgebeo wrote: »
    I assumed that it was 5 teachers not on full hours. Christ if it's 5 22hr posts none of us have a hope for next year!

    Not all of the non-permanent staff are on full hours.

    That's more in line with what I imagined. Numbers falling is going to be a concern in my school too in a couple of years. I'm just hoping that it's not until I get a CID which is still a long way off


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 221 ✭✭lestat21


    Jeez whatever way you look at it, this can't be good for schools or the profession. I know teachers have been speculating what subjects they will have to teach nxt year. Some people think they could be thrown into classes they are not qualified to teach. Simply because they are permanent or CID and the allocation suggests qualified teachers might be in short supply for some subjects. I understand how career guidance and learning support are been catered for in my school but in the schools opinion it doesn't account for the very low allocation. Someone suggested the dept has put the decimal point in the wrong place :)

    Thanks for your reply gaeilgebeo, I never considered how the retirement of post holders would affect the allocation. Any word on posts of responsibility been filled next year??

    I know for a fact that the school population is going to stay the same or rise slightly next year, but this school still stands to lose approx 10 teachers.. Is there anyone here working in a schools which has seen a dramatic rise in student numbers? How does your allocation reflect this?


  • Registered Users Posts: 909 ✭✭✭gaeilgebeo


    lestat21 wrote: »
    Jeez whatever way you look at it, this can't be good for schools or the profession. I know teachers have been speculating what subjects they will have to teach nxt year. Some people think they could be thrown into classes they are not qualified to teach. Simply because they are permanent or CID and the allocation suggests qualified teachers might be in short supply for some subjects. I understand how career guidance and learning support are been catered for in my school but in the schools opinion it doesn't account for the very low allocation. Someone suggested the dept has put the decimal point in the wrong place :)

    Thanks for your reply gaeilgebeo, I never considered how the retirement of post holders would affect the allocation. Any word on posts of responsibility been filled next year??

    I know for a fact that the school population is going to stay the same or rise slightly next year, but this school still stands to lose approx 10 teachers.. Is there anyone here working in a schools which has seen a dramatic rise in student numbers? How does your allocation reflect this?

    Our A Posts so far have not been filled due to the moratorium. The deputy principal is the 6th year year head!

    Cutting two subjects from the Leaving Cert really affected the part-timers hours too.

    The allocation for an academic year is always based on the previous years first year intake.


  • Registered Users Posts: 615 ✭✭✭linguist


    gaeilgebeo: I did not mean to cause personal offence by what I wrote. I apologise for how it came across to you, however frankly the need for the query I raised has been well borne out by the extra information you've provided. I referred to people being pessimistic...there's more than you in this discussion.

    The currency in any conversation of this type is whole time equivalents not the number of actual people in the staffroom. Obviously the decline in enrollment you've outlined and the timetabling decisions stemming from it have been serious. I think you know well that no school that is stable on 540 should be down 4.6 teachers once the final allocation is in. That's what I meant, and your subsequent posts make it clear that there are many other factors at play.

    What I think is important is that people are precise and responsible in the information they share here since this is a worrying time for many.


  • Registered Users Posts: 909 ✭✭✭gaeilgebeo


    linguist wrote: »
    gaeilgebeo: I did not mean to cause personal offence by what I wrote. I apologise for how it came across to you, however frankly the need for the query I raised has been well borne out by the extra information you've provided. I referred to people being pessimistic...there's more than you in this discussion.

    The currency in any conversation of this type is whole time equivalents not the number of actual people in the staffroom. Obviously the decline in enrollment you've outlined and the timetabling decisions stemming from it have been serious. I think you know well that no school that is stable on 540 should be down 4.6 teachers once the final allocation is in. That's what I meant, and your subsequent posts make it clear that there are many other factors at play.

    What I think is important is that people are precise and responsible in the information they share here since this is a worrying time for many.

    So for a school that is stable on 540, you don't think they could lose teachers as a result of cutbacks?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,359 ✭✭✭whiteandlight


    I presume they mean that a 4.5 teacher cut of teachers on 22hrs would seem to be on the heavy side of budget cuts?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 615 ✭✭✭linguist


    Obviously yes - and they will by virtue of the change to guidance which would cost them 0.7 of a teacher for starters.

    Anyway, I clarified my position that I didn't mean to cause you offence. You appear set on taking a selective and rather strange interpretation of what I'm saying. If you'd like an argument here, you can have it with someone else. That's not why I'm here.


  • Registered Users Posts: 909 ✭✭✭gaeilgebeo


    linguist wrote: »
    Obviously yes - and they will by virtue of the change to guidance which would cost them 0.7 of a teacher for starters.

    Anyway, I clarified my position that I didn't mean to cause you offence. You appear set on taking a selective and rather strange interpretation of what I'm saying. If you'd like an argument here, you can have it with someone else. That's not why I'm here.

    No I would not like an argument! Particularly on a Friday night. Funny :D
    If you look back on my contributions to this thread, you will see that.
    I appreciate that you did not mean to cause offence. Apologies that I did not state this.
    I was merely asking a question in reference to a different part of your post.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,359 ✭✭✭whiteandlight


    Can I just ask that if anyone gets confirmation on their hours for next year that they let the rest of us suffering know!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 574 ✭✭✭bdoo


    Can I just ask that if anyone gets confirmation on their hours for next year that they let the rest of us suffering know!

    Teachers in my school found out this week


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,359 ✭✭✭whiteandlight


    Ok so worth asking again then...


  • Registered Users Posts: 615 ✭✭✭linguist


    bdoo: Do you work in a state or a fee-paying school? If it's a state school, then can you confirm whether your principal has received their final allocation, because the point made by me and a number of other posters is that the final allocation hasn't come in yet, thus making it impossible for principals to timetable. Maybe different schools are getting their news at different times...

    I'm perplexed as to how your principal could be giving people news given that redeployment is still ongoing. In a fee-paying school, of course, they could largely ignore all this and hire who they like. Please give us a few specifics if you can.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    linguist wrote: »
    bdoo: Do you work in a state or a fee-paying school? If it's a state school, then can you confirm whether your principal has received their final allocation, because the point made by me and a number of other posters is that the final allocation hasn't come in yet, thus making it impossible for principals to timetable. Maybe different schools are getting their news at different times...

    I'm perplexed as to how your principal could be giving people news given that redeployment is still ongoing. In a fee-paying school, of course, they could largely ignore all this and hire who they like. Please give us a few specifics if you can.

    open to correction here, but fee paying school s can also be over quota and subject to redeployment a they are also governed by the pupil teacher ratio albeit a different one. The extra teachers they hire are ' ex-quota' .


  • Registered Users Posts: 615 ✭✭✭linguist


    Absolutely true armelodie. However the fact remains that if they have the money and wish to do so, fee-paying schools can hire whoever they like. Looking at today's Sunday Independent, there are a couple of job ads (time was there would be lots by this stage in May) and in at least one of them it's clearly stated that filling positions is contingent on he approval of the Director of Redeployment.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,359 ✭✭✭whiteandlight


    It's so ridiculously late. School is up in two weeks time and the hundreds of us on part time contracts don't even know if we'll be back next year. How are any of us supposed to have a life when we are sitting in this limbo. It's horribly disheartening.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 615 ✭✭✭linguist


    I hear you musicmental, but deep down you must have some idea...if you're one of a small department teaching a core subject it'd be difficult for your job to evaporate one would have thought. Frankly I'm pretty relaxed because that would sum up my position. Plus our incoming first year enrolment is way up. So fingers crossed.

    One imagines the people most at risk are those teaching optional subjects or whose timetables are made up of the 'leftovers'. But one thing is sure...there will always be leftovers to be cobbled together in late August. It's a major pain but there are always people who were sure they wouldn't make it back who turn up on the first day!


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