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Dramatic fall in number failing maths

13

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭Head The Wall


    In relation to A1's Yes but the thread is about the number of people failing maths. I also believe it has something to do with them making them easier


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,323 ✭✭✭Cruel Sun


    djpbarry wrote: »
    And yet the number of A1's awarded dropped?

    They manipulated the marking scheme so that more people would pass the subject and project maths would be considered a success.

    People are no better than they were at maths before, the new course is an unorganized joke which has wasted a lot of money.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭Head The Wall


    And pigs learn to fly in one year :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 302 ✭✭RubyRoss


    I seem to remember complaints last year about how difficult the maths paper was which some believed was an effort to make this year's project maths results appear successful in comparison.

    I downloaded the project maths paper and found it pretty simple for higher-level. Lots of statistics and propability. Maybe the other paper was more difficult.

    On paper it's a good sign that more students are doing maths just as it is a good sign on paper that we have so many third level graduates. In reality, it's entirely self-defeating if the standard of work isn't high.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,586 ✭✭✭sock puppet


    Cruel Sun wrote: »

    People are no better than they were at maths before, the new course is an unorganized joke which has wasted a lot of money.

    If we assume that the exam and marking scheme are as difficult as last year it still doesn't follow that results should be the same, as the previous year's best ordinary level students would have sat higher level this year.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭doc_17


    djpbarry wrote: »
    doc_17 wrote: »
    Grades in Maths are not subjective.
    Are the grades not dependent on the marking scheme?
    doc_17 wrote: »
    The vast majority o the paper requires correct answers.
    That's not true - one could get the answer to every single question wrong, but still emerge with a good grade.

    Ye they are dependent on the scheme but surely you understand that the scheme is base on correct strategies and answers?

    As for your second point you can only get good grades with mathematically valid attempts and answers. I take you point though about not needing correct answers to get marks.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,299 ✭✭✭✭later12


    Dapics wrote: »
    The examiners were told to go "soft" on marking them.
    Basically Politics is now interfering with our education system.
    It would look bad if the governments new pet project didn't do well eh?
    Source?

    Because if you don't even have a source for this, let alone proof, you are just some guy making baseless accusations on an internet forum, and can't really expect anyone to lend this any credibility.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 3,368 Mod ✭✭✭✭andrew


    Here's a link to a short analysis of the change done by a guy I know. It seems that the change only benefits a small number of people who would've done HL maths anyway


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    In relation to A1's Yes but the thread is about the number of people failing maths. I also believe it has something to do with them making them easier
    Do you have anything to support this belief or is it just an assumption? The absolute number of failures at higher level hasn’t actually changed all that much.
    Cruel Sun wrote: »
    They manipulated the marking scheme so that more people would pass the subject and project maths would be considered a success.
    See above – roughly the same number of people failed the exam as last year. What’s more, the total number of failures across all levels is still pretty high. If there was some covert initiative to ensure as many passes in maths as possible, it was an epic failure (no pun intended).
    Cruel Sun wrote: »
    People are no better than they were at maths before...
    People are not born with innate mathematical ability. Becoming mathematically literate requires a lot of hard work – it is essentially no different to learning a foreign language, in my opinion. The simplest explanation for the observed increase in honours awarded in maths is an increase in the work put in by students. This makes sense in the current economic climate – getting any kind of degree and then walking into the jobs market to make shed loads of money was a possibility 5-10 years ago, but not anymore. In these more competitive times, being mathematically literate confers a big advantage.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,323 ✭✭✭Cruel Sun


    djpbarry wrote: »
    Do you have anything to support this belief or is it just an assumption? The absolute number of failures at higher level hasn’t actually changed all that much.

    I don't have any links to anything if that is what you mean, but I have classmates who were almost certain they had failed. They said themselves that they answered questions poorly and left some questions unanswered. I know one person after reviewing the paper, came to the conclusion that there was no way he'd have passed. However he got his D3 on results day. He was not the only one who got a pleasant surprise.

    djpbarry wrote: »
    See above – roughly the same number of people failed the exam as last year.

    The numbers stayed the same, but failure levels have fallen by 20%, you said it yourself in your initial post.

    I don't know if you are familiar with the new course (project maths), but it has come under a lot criticism. Schools weren't given enough information about the new paper 2, not many official sample papers were given out. I believe that a lot of people performed quite poorly in the exam and the marking scheme was manipulated so that record numbers would not fail.

    You do realize that when exams are being corrected that a draft marking scheme is applied to a random sample of scripts. The marking schemes are finalized and often adjusted after the random sampling.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    The government are making some good decisions though.

    They are looking at trialling jump Math which is worth looking up which would be a big change to the way Math is taught in our schools in fairness and probably for the better if the existing results of the courses students are to be believed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Cruel Sun wrote: »
    I don't have any links to anything if that is what you mean, but I have classmates who were almost certain they had failed.
    So you know a few people who thought they failed, but emerged with a D, and now you think there’s a big conspiracy?
    Cruel Sun wrote: »
    The numbers stayed the same, but failure levels have fallen by 20%, you said it yourself in your initial post.
    Failure rates have fallen because the number of people sitting the exam increased dramatically. It is not unreasonable to assume that a lot of people who passed the higher paper this year would have sat the ordinary level paper in previous years.
    Cruel Sun wrote: »
    I don't know if you are familiar with the new course (project maths), but it has come under a lot criticism.
    It has come under some criticism, as any new syllabus inevitably will. However, I am very much under the impression that the move to modernise how maths is taught in Ireland has been broadly welcomed.
    Cruel Sun wrote: »
    You do realize that when exams are being corrected that a draft marking scheme is applied to a random sample of scripts. The marking schemes are finalized and often adjusted after the random sampling.
    I’ve already said that marking schemes are somewhat subjective by nature? If a draft marking scheme resulted in an abnormally high number of A1s, would you not expect it to be revised?

    Your argument for grade manipulation essentially boils down to your opinion that grade manipulation has taken place and you’re know seeking evidence to support this preconception. A few students performing better than they thought they did is not exactly Earth-shattering and if this is the sum total of your evidence, I would be inclined to dismiss your argument.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    Doesn’t that kind of contradict your argument? Why would the maths paper suddenly become more difficult if high grades are the aim?
    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    Once again, the reaction that I have read has been decidedly mixed.
    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    I’m going to go out on a limb here and guess that the average grade obtained in leaving cert maths has declined in tandem with Ireland’s PISA and OECD ranking?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    Gauging reactions in a comparative manner is an impossible task.
    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    Consider the declining number of students sitting the higher level maths exam, I find it hard to accept that the average leaving cert student in 2011 emerged with a significantly better maths grade than the average student in, say, 2000.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    But the article you linked to refers exclusively to higher level grades? As I said above, if fewer students are sitting higher level maths, then it's not terribly surprising that the mathematical ability of the average student is on the decline. If we were also to assume that it is the weaker students who are opting out of the higher paper - not an altogether unreasonable assumption - then it's not surprising that the average grade awarded on the higher paper has increased (slightly).

    I've said before on this site that I'm somewhat sceptical of claims relating to "grade inflation". In my opinion, the apparent improved performance of students in the LC, over the last decade in particular, has far more to do with student choices than the dumbing down of examinations (although I'm not rulling it out completely).


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


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  • Registered Users Posts: 338 ✭✭itzme


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    My own belief is that while it is likely there is some grade inflation in third level (and second level) it is actually at the pass rate not the first class honours rate.
    In third level, colleges are paid by the department for every student they have registered in the semester there is a economic need to pass people who were on the border line or not. They are increasing the grades of those who should fail to make sure they get enough cash for the next year.

    On people getting better grades, you seem to be taking only one item into your consideration and drawing conclusions from it. There definitely is something wrong with the system and that is changes are being driven by people outside of education without an appreciation for how to and the difficulties of educating. What else has changed since 1992, well there has been a massive push to structured examinations at second level and especially at third level. There is immense pressure for each exam to be 4 questions, choose 3, a,b,c,d where d is always the hardest. The syllabus is also being structured so that question 1 always covers a certain part of the syllabus, question 2 another and so on. This allows for students to be much more strategic in what they study and with past exam papers makes getting a high grade much easier. This is my view on why in some cases there has increased grades, particularly in third level. This is being driven by a metrics based education system where we can "evaluate" the educators. It is seriously damaging our education system.

    On grade inflation and maths though it is worth pointing out the actual figures since 2009 which don't seem to show grade inflation in A's to me

    2009
    A1: 6.9%
    A2: 8.1%
    Total: 15%

    2010
    A1: 7.5%
    A2: 7.0%
    Total: 14.5%

    2011
    A1: 5.7%
    A2: 7.5%
    Total: 12.5%

    2012
    A1: 4.1%
    A2: 6.2%
    Total: 10.3%
    (sources: here and here)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 338 ✭✭itzme


    I'd also point out that while the Irish education system is getting one hell of a battering here in Ireland (by vested interests who want to turn it into a production line for graduates for their companies, or by people who believe teachers are doing a terrible job and believe that constantly testing the students will allow them to find the bad teachers and kick them out), the perception abroad is very positive.
    In 2009 we were ranked highest out of all surveyed countries in terms of recruiter perception of the quality of our graduates here. So we have some CEOs saying we're churning out crap, we have in independent reviews saying we're churning out high quality.....
    On PISA its worth reading this alternative view showing how all stats are not created equal. Now, if you believe the article then you have to ask why those conducting the PISA tests were not more diligent here.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    Come on now – you’re picking two isolated figures and drawing conclusions. Would I be right in guessing that 43% is an all-time high and 21% a relative low? What happens when C grades are also included? Or when only A grades are considered?

    What does the overall trend look like over that period? And how does it compare with changes in the number of students sitting the exam?
    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    I was not aware of a dramatic increase – what discipline(s) are you referring to?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    Would it not be more accurate to refer to it as points inflation? Would it also not be fair to say (and I am sure an examination of the records will show this to be the case) that the average student in 2007 opted for “easier” subjects, with a view to maximising their points tally, relative to the average student in 1992?
    Permabear wrote: »
    So, within the space of ten years, we went from 30 percent of Trinity graduates getting Firsts or 2:1's to 66 percent getting Firsts or 2:1's.

    I guess this doesn't count as grade inflation, though, right?
    Only if you’re of the opinion that all degrees are equal. A reasonable person would argue that there is a world of difference between obtaining a first in maths and obtaining a first in health and safety.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    The fall in the number of students taking higher level maths and other science subjects?
    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    I’m sure they would have, but maths and science subjects would have been required to go and study engineering and science at third level, for example.
    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    Large increase in number of students attending third level. Dramatic decrease in enrolments for courses such as science and engineering.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,235 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    Although I can't provide a link or any evidence for this it would be my opinion that school kids are now more competitive and informed than they were in the past. The internet has a lot to do with this and society has changed considerably since, say, 1992.

    I did my LC in the mid nineties - if I had had today's internet then I believe I would have achieved higher grades even with the same marking schemes, papers, teachers etc.

    Parents are also more competitive and educated than they were in the past. When I did my LC very few of my classmates' parents were educated to third level. Very few paid for grinds for their children even when the quality of the teaching was poor. IMO the proportion of parents educated to third level (and showing an interest in their child's education as a result) is likely to be higher now.

    Therefore I think there are other factors other than "grade inflation" and "dumbing down" here.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 98 ✭✭Rynox45


    I sat ordinary level maths, simply because I'm lazy and hadn't put in the work necessary in 4th year to continue with higher (The 25 points was announced just as I was dropping) and in my opinion, ordinary level leaving cert was easier than higher level Junior cert, it's a joke.
    I put in very little work, only doing a few sums in class in between chatting to a friend of mine and got an A2. Maths is my only ordinary level subject so I knew I wouldn't be counting it for points.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


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