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RootsIreland / IFHF

  • 22-03-2012 2:26pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 2,777 ✭✭✭


    RootsIreland have changed their fee structure - not sure if it's better or worse!

    Free Index searches are no longer available and now cost 1 credit per page, all records cost 25 credits. The cost of each credit depends on how you many you purchase at a time - cheaper the more you buy.

    approximate cost per search page / and per record

    €5.00=35 Credits 14c / €3.57
    €10.00=73 Credits 13.5c / €3.42
    €18.00=150 Credits 12c / €3
    €32.00=320 Credits 10c / €2.50
    €60.00=750 Credits 8c / €2



    Shane


«13

Comments

  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,609 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    That seems confusing.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Registered Users Posts: 556 ✭✭✭Coolnabacky1873


    Shane,

    Thanks for the info. They had it tucked away in their latest news instead of front and centre.
    Very surprised they didn't email existing users (I didn't get one anyway) to outline the changes that were going to happen as not everyone would have been aware of this from Claire's blog a while back.

    But anyway, some good, some bad.

    I can see how the lower cost bulk bulking will be helpful to those with 'Patrick Murphy' ancestors. But taking away the free index searches is a bad move IMO.

    I'm sure John Grenham will have lots to say about them now!


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,777 ✭✭✭shanew


    I have have purchased quite a few records from them over the years, but usually after a number of index searches to narrow down the parish etc. Admittedly once I've found a match I use the details to kick start a search in the NLI or RCBL

    I understand John's online course has a section about using the free search to narrow down possible matches...

    I prefer the old way - although the €5 was a bit steep.

    In a way this might save some money for the people who really need more details to focus a search before they start an Irish search - i.e. those with limited information e.g Patrick Murphy Ireland abt 1820, unknown parents and location might hold off - and try to find a bit more details first ?...


    S.


  • Registered Users Posts: 556 ✭✭✭Coolnabacky1873


    Claire has an article on her blog today containing feedback from different Irish genealogy forums and websites.

    Lots of people with some very negative thing to say about the new payment structure!


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,162 ✭✭✭Wyldwood


    Not living anywhere near Dublin/NLI, I have spent several hundred euro buying records from IFHF over the years but only after I had spent many hours searching to identify the correct ones. I won't part with another cent if I can't eliminate the wrong records before purchase. How many of us are lucky enough to have uncommon names to work with? I for one am stuck with very common names on the whole. Big fail to IFHF for this move.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,706 ✭✭✭Waitsian


    If they start losing money they'll hopefully cop themselves on and either go full payment membership or revert back to the free search. It seems they've stirred up a hornet's nest anyway.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    They’ve made a classic internet-business mistake. Soooo many firms that went online in the mid 1990’s with a similar business model were cleared out by the dotcom bust. Have they not learned from that? Do they realize that a cyber customer is just a click from leaving a business? Their site already is too busy with repetitive tat, the navigation is awful to the uninitiated and now their pricing disparity – and five ‘price points - for the same product - will annoy their smaller customers (probably the biggest market.)

    The obtuseness is amazing:-
    To view the details of any single record from the search results page will cost 25 credits but may vary depending on the type of record you view.

    Then they give a price matrix and follow that with
    we suggest that you buy enough credit to view 10 records.

    So that’s 250 credits (maybe, but may vary) BUT their pricing plan has either an option of 150 credits at €18 or 350 at €32. Where is the logic?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,706 ✭✭✭Waitsian


    The Irish Genealogical Research Society has issued a response to the new fee structure, removing the free index search facility at RootsIreland's website:


    A backward step

    Recently, much has changed for the better in Irish genealogy, what with records coming online for free, or being made more generally accessible. But the recent action of the Irish Family History Foundation (through its website www.rootsireland.ie) to introduce charges to view its online indexes to records has come as a complete shock. It appears that mixed messages are now emanating from Ireland! One of the most used and beneficial websites, sponsored by the Irish government’s department for Arts, Heritage and Gaeltacht Affairs - www.irishgenealogy.ie - offers free access to parish register indexes and records from Dublin, Cork, Kerry and Carlow. The site is a joy to use and for most entries links are provided to digital images of the original record, enabling verification of data. However, by contrast, the IFHS does not provide links to the original records and charges have now been put in place to view the indexes, and that’s before paying to view the record itself. Contrasted with the government website, this appears a poor bargain by comparison. It is a worthwhile exercise to read the extremely restrictive Terms and Conditions produced by IFHS on their website. The tone is hectoring and threatening – and it begs the question of who on earth advised them on their public relations policy? Quite alarmingly, the terms determine “your rights, responsibilities and benefits” but I think most researchers will be alarmed to read “you may only use www.rootsireland.ie and its contents for your own personal non-commercial use... you cannot provide third parties with details of any records that you have paid to view, even if you provide them for free (so don’t pass on any family history records to your family)... if you do not agree with any of the Terms and Conditions do not use the site”...threats of disconnection and possible prosecution follow. Given the number of complaints already received by the IGRS, without delay the IFHS needs to seriously re-think this model of negativity and re-instate the free viewing of the indexes!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 470 ✭✭CeannRua


    Thanks mod9maple. With the limitation to 'personal, non-commercial use' this sounds like that both (1) people on forums such as this can't do lookups for people and that (2) external professional genealogists can't access the database. I can understand that professional genealogists cost them money in commissioned research but with people doing lookups, someone is still going to buy the records anyway.

    As error prone as IrishGenealogy can be, at least you can (mostly) check the images. I wonder with RootsIreland how often it has set people on the wrong track because of transcription errors. As it stands, where an event happened after the start of civil registration, I would personally think the civil cert offers better value and accuracy and that the lack of images costs RootsIreland. RootsIreland just looks like a business model under threat. If IrishGenealogy get their hands on more records I could see RootsIreland being dead in the water.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,777 ✭✭✭shanew


    CeannRua wrote: »
    ....
    If IrishGenealogy get their hands on more records I could see RootsIreland being dead in the water.

    I think that's the core of the issue... up to now IrishGenealogy has only been covering areas outside those covered by RootsIreland and IFHF resisted plans for further digitization of the NLI films. Digitizing these could have been a step towards making these available online as images at least. Possibly not transcribed initially if costs did not allow, but I think plenty of people, in Ireland & worldwide, would volunteer to transcribe images.

    bottom line in my view - this should not be a business, it's a resource to share


    Shane


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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    There is an important point made in the statement of the Irish Genealogical Research Society quoted by mod9maple above about the terms and conditions imposed on users about sharing information. There is an implication that IFHF owns the data, and has a right to limit its use. No, it bloody doesn't own the content of parish registers and the like. They own a database that more-or-less correctly contains the same data; they own a search facility linked to that database; they have copyright on the format in which they present data.

    Just a couple of days ago I received a mail from an American friend who wants help in understanding her Irish ancestry, and she was quite bothered about sending me the data about a marriage in 1831. Yet in this matter I can be regarded as a research assistant or collaborator. Why should she be made feel that she is bending or breaking the rules?

    I don't mind paying for information if it costs somebody money to source that information for me. But I am getting a bit uncomfortable with IFHF. It describes itself as a "not-for-profit organization" yet seems to be intent on increasing its revenues. What for?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,777 ✭✭✭shanew


    Since the index searches were previously free to access, I didn't see a problem helping people narrow down parishes - although you had to be careful not do use too many or you could fall foul of another rule re your search vs payment ratio...

    Since the searches are now paid for - I think there will be fewer people willing to assist, a) because they have to pay a fee (no matter how small), and b) because technically they are breaking the terms and conditions in doing so.

    I think the big losers in this will be people outside Ireland who cannot easily access primary sources, e.g. NLI RCBL etc, and are not familiar with townlands, RC parishes, civil parishes, Poor Law Unions etc and need help getting their search started...

    It is sometimes possible to extract results using the free search, based purely on the number of results.. but this only works with less common names, or uncommon combinations of names.


    Shane


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,974 ✭✭✭Brennans Row


    mod9maple wrote: »
    A backward step

    . . . . . . . . . The (Irish Genealogy) site is a joy to use and for most entries links are provided to digital images of the original record, enabling verification of data. However, by contrast, the IFHS does not provide links to the original records . . . . . . .

    That’s a good point.

    The marriage certificate of my great-great-grandparents from the 1850s on the Roots Ireland website is very sparse on details e.g. the boxes for the names of parents were empty.

    Therefore without a view of the original record, I could not verify for myself if their data was complete or not. :(


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,777 ✭✭✭shanew


    An 1850s RC marriage record would not usually include details of fathers. From what I've seen the most common format would be date, names of bride and groom, names of witness and possibly an address.


    Shane


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,974 ✭✭✭Brennans Row


    Thanks Shane.

    In fact I later got that marriage certificate checked with the original register on microfilm. Although there was no additional information to be obtained, in effect I paid twice to eliminate any ambiguity stemming from those empty boxes regarding parent names.

    Since the records are now all transcribed into a data base, an image copy of the original record should be added to it too and included in the pay per view for authenticity.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,777 ✭✭✭shanew


    agreed - images are important and the IFHF should have made images available also, but as far as I know, in most cases they just transcribed the details, rather than scanning or digitizing them.



    Shane


  • Registered Users Posts: 556 ✭✭✭Coolnabacky1873


    Well I finally got an email today from the IFHF telling me all about their new credits system.

    If further added that if I signed up by 22 March then I get the free searches.

    That's great to know........in April!


  • Registered Users Posts: 556 ✭✭✭Coolnabacky1873


    John Grenham has given us his reaction to the new RootsIreland payment model.

    You won't be surprised by what he says but he makes the interesting comment:
    The sane response is of course to look for a way to outwit the restrictions. And sure enough, with a little care it is still possible to do free index searches. I would encourage experimentation.

    Is he referring to a way to do permanent free searches?

    I haven't had the chance since the changes to experiment but has anyone else found a way?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,777 ✭✭✭shanew


    You can sometimes workout useful results using just the fully free search and a single membership - it's like 20 questions in that all you have to go on is the number of results. You start with the parent/couple names, approx. year, and county and then keep narrowing down the parish, first names, date etc - doing the search again and re-checking the number of results. Hopefully ending up with just one or two matches in a single parish with more detailed names. This probably will not work for more common names or for CofI baptisms.

    For first names, you can search one letter at a time a bit like the Glasnevin search - e.g. fr father's name try P=no result, try M=1 result, try Mi=no results, try Ma 1 result. Guess at Matthew - 1 result etc etc


    Shane


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,415 ✭✭✭touts


    Just logged on to RootsIreland for the first time in a few months to try and follow up on a few leads for one branch of my family tree. You now have to pay to SEARCH the records. I have spend hundreds in accessing records once I had narrowed down the options with the free search. To now charge me for searching aswell is a major turnoff. Personally I'm using the "credits" I have left on the account and then I will probably never be back. Can you imagine if Google charged you for each page of potentially irrelevant search results. If I have to pay to search and can't be sure that I will find anyone on my tree my gut instinct is to wait and hope I will find more info somewhere else before spending money. I can't be alone in this feeling. I would suspect their revenue will fall off a cliff after this. They should have put ads on the page rather than this charge for the search results rubbish!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 243 ✭✭binxeo


    touts wrote: »
    Just logged on to RootsIreland for the first time in a few months to try and follow up on a few leads for one branch of my family tree. You now have to pay to SEARCH the records. I have spend hundreds in accessing records once I had narrowed down the options with the free search. To now charge me for searching aswell is a major turnoff. Personally I'm using the "credits" I have left on the account and then I will probably never be back. Can you imagine if Google charged you for each page of potentially irrelevant search results. If I have to pay to search and can't be sure that I will find anyone on my tree my gut instinct is to wait and hope I will find more info somewhere else before spending money. I can't be alone in this feeling. I would suspect their revenue will fall off a cliff after this. They should have put ads on the page rather than this charge for the search results rubbish!

    I noticed this the other day myself. I was very disheartened tbh. Plus I was sure I had ten credits left on my account but when I check I had none. It is def a service I won't be using until it is changed. Typically Irish you have to pay to search. Ridiculous.


  • Registered Users Posts: 975 ✭✭✭genie


    I haven't used the site since the new fee structure was introduced. :)

    I wonder if the number of people using the site (and revenue for RootsIreland) has fallen?


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 11,291 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hermy


    I emailed them regarding this and haven't heard back. Anyone else?

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,127 ✭✭✭ZombieBride


    I still use it, and generally only have to use one credit to view the first page, then another 25 to view the second.

    Yes, it is expensive, but going through the BMD indexes finding right ancestor, after visiting your local family history centre, posting your information and cheque for €6.00 for a photocopy of the register, or €10 for an actual cert to the GRO, waiting for them to post it back to you. Or if you don't have a family history centre near by, making a random guess posting the cheque only to find that there were a few people of that name in that town at that time.

    Yes it costs, but it is a lot cheaper and quicker than the alternatives. Why should we get it for free? As a researcher I know how much work goes into correlating a database like that, it doesn't come cheap or quick.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    ... Why should we get it for free? As a researcher I know how much work goes into correlating a database like that, it doesn't come cheap or quick.
    Caitriona Crowe gave reasons on radio recently. The most telling argument is that we actually paid for the abstraction of the data, because nearly all the work was done by FÁS workers.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,127 ✭✭✭ZombieBride


    Caitriona Crowe gave reasons on radio recently. The most telling argument is that we actually paid for the abstraction of the data, because nearly all the work was done by FÁS workers.


    That doesn't negate the fact that if you walked into a registry office to get a cert you'd be paying either €6 or €10, so why have those fees if we can get the information for free online?
    The FAS workers didn't do it for free though, they were paid.
    A lot of people who would be using that database aren't living in Ireland, so their taxes wouldn't have paid the FAS workers, so should only they have to pay or should they get it for free too?

    While I'd love to see them made available for free but I don't think we are automatically "entitled" to it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 975 ✭✭✭genie


    I don't object to paying for the records. What I do object to is paying for the search for those records.


  • Registered Users Posts: 556 ✭✭✭Coolnabacky1873


    The only defens(c)e of the new payment structure that I have seen from an IFHF member is from Brian Mitchell of the Derry Genealogy Centre in a comment on John Grenham's blog post.


  • Registered Users Posts: 975 ✭✭✭genie


    The only defens(c)e of the new payment structure that I have seen from an IFHF member is from Brian Mitchell of the Derry Genealogy Centre in a comment on John Grenham's blog post.

    Well, he would defend the new pay structure, wouldn't he? :)

    It is a great and very useful database and has helped me no end with my own family history research but now charging for searches as well as the record just reeks of greed and I will not use the site again until the current pay structure is done away with. :)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 556 ✭✭✭Coolnabacky1873


    Yeah, I don't think some of the arguments he makes are the best tbh.

    In a two horse race it's not that hard being the "Number One family records database in Ireland." The "powerful index" search facility would be the same found on any other website.

    I do wonder if the IFHF felt that too many people were just using the indexes and then going elsewhere to get their records (local family history centre, GRO etc..).


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