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How do you intend to vote in the upcoming EU Fiscal Treaty referendum?

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,039 ✭✭✭force eleven


    Why should Ireland get sweeteners to vote YES on this referendum?

    This is, of course, the obvious question, and one I believed before the referendum was called would be a no brainer. But listening to Barroso etc, it looks like they don't particularly care whether we are in their fiscal prison or not. This 'fiscal compact' (they love their snappy phrases) will go ahead regardless, and good luck to the other small eurozone members who get this tied around their economic neck for decades.

    I don't think the government, Van Rompuy,Barroso, Giscard D'estang or Peter Sutherland can scare the people into Yes this time.


  • Registered Users Posts: 43,274 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    So we are being asked to vote in a set of measures which will tie us into austerity for at least another 10-15yrs.

    You say that as if there's some choice in the matter!

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • Registered Users Posts: 137 ✭✭pancakes rule


    Voting No. This treaty is going to make any keynsian policies and socialism illegal. It is taking democracy further away from the people. It will mean MASSIVE austerity for us (an extra €8.6 billion in cuts) which will put more people in debt and if the government doesn't manage to meet the .5% of GDP in time, we'll be fined which will send us into a debt spiral.
    The treaty says we should encourage job promotion, but that won't be possible as taking money out of the public sector will cause job losses there which will have a knock on affect in job losses in the private sector.
    We won't be able to borrow money for public works anymore. Yes, there will be a chance for individual projects, but that simply won't be enough.
    Budgetary power will shift from elected governments to the unelected European Council.
    Not only will this government be tied to these strict rules of austerity, but any future government will also be tied to it, meaning that whoever we elect can never bring any change- it's like saying you can have any colour car as long as it's black.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,568 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    If anyone is NOT currently watching TV3 news, I'd advise folk to turn it on.
    Its on an ad beak at the mo but Vincent Brown is going to bring up what he calls "a strange development regarding the treaty".

    I have NO idea yet what he's going to bring up - yet!

    UPDATE:

    Vincent stated that the treaty in its first draft that was agreed to by all and signed up to by all then, had no ruling in it that if anyone voted "no", there would be NO withdrawing of economic help/funds.
    Apparently (and he will be discussing this wed' week when he returns from holiday) he says that just four weeks ago, they rewrote the treaty party with its new added sub-section, to now included the exclusion penalties upon a "No" vote!
    The original treaty (and the countries involved more so) that was agreed over a year ago, had no way apparently of knowing what what was going to happen regards Ireland etc so had no inclusion of penalties of later exclusion!

    Strange stuff indeed!


  • Registered Users Posts: 43,274 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Biggins wrote: »
    If anyone is NOT currently watching TV3 news, I'd advise folk to turn it on.
    Its on an ad beak at the mo but Vincent Brown is going to bring up what he calls "a strange development regarding the treaty".

    I have NO idea yet what he's going to bring up - yet!

    UPDATE:

    Vincent stated that the treaty in its first draft that was agreed to by all and signed up to by all then, had no ruling in it that if anyone voted "no", there would be NO withdrawing of economic help/funds.
    Apparently (and he will be discussing this wed' week when he returns from holiday) he says that just four weeks ago, they rewrote the treaty party with its new added sub-section, to now included the exclusion penalties upon a "No" vote!
    The original treaty (and the countries involved more so) that was agreed over a year ago, had no way apparently of knowing what what was going to happen regards Ireland etc so had no inclusion of penalties of later exclusion!

    Strange stuff indeed!

    It isn't new, he brought it up on Tuesday night I think! Got to love Vincent!

    The original treaty was only agreed after Xmas as the general provisions were only agreed on in December, the meeting were they all self congratulated themselves on finding yet another solution to the crisis, oh, and Cameron got "snubbed".

    Its a stupid provision. If Ireland needs another bailout and it probably will, even if we are successful in getting back to the markets next year, rules will be set aside if it risks Euro instability.

    The thing is, and I'd put the mortgage* on it and I'm not a betting man, the provisions in the Treaty will by and large be a condition of the second bail out!

    *May not have a mortgage, may be one of the poor renting classes! ;)

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,230 ✭✭✭sdanseo


    NO a million times over.

    Maybe literally, if the exit polls arent looking too favourable :P


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,635 ✭✭✭eth0


    Why are RTE reporting on polls that says there will be a yes vote? is it propaganda or are we boardsies only a bunch of contrarians?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 156 ✭✭GombeanMan


    eth0 wrote: »
    Why are RTE reporting on polls that says there will be a yes vote? is it propaganda or are we boardsies only a bunch of contrarians?

    Highly Suspicious. Please vote No, these new arrangements will potentially lead to 15 years of bailing out. In 10 years time I doubt Ireland will even stand as a nation. Vote Yes, we may as well consider the country as a poverty ridden section of Germany. I don't really like what these EU Political class folk are doing. Barrosso was a Communist Mao apologist/supporter. Mao Killed 100,000,000 people in China.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,663 ✭✭✭Cork24


    Ill be voting "NO"

    as once again our Goverment Fails to tell us in Lay mans terms what the hole thing means as a country

    And i do hope that when it does fail in our Country we wont be forced into a another Vote.. just like FF..


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,500 ✭✭✭✭DEFTLEFTHAND


    Yes, this little North Atlantic rock can't keep impeding European progress I say.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 156 ✭✭GombeanMan


    Yes, this little North Atlantic rock can't keep impeding European progress I say.

    In what way, exactly? Is the European Union free from blame in this eurozone disaster? These people like spending other people's money. Trouble is, it's starting to run out. The EU is heading in the direction of the USSR. The model this Union is partly derived from.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,252 ✭✭✭✭kowloon


    I'll just randomly tick one of the boxes, if I get it wrong they'll tell me and I can get it right the second time round.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,158 ✭✭✭Tayla


    quietriot wrote: »
    I intend to vote intelligently on the matter. That is, having read the text and making a decision on how to vote based on that text and my expectation of the consequences from it.

    I will not vote based on how I feel about the current government or what I think of the EU.

    It's unbelievably sad that I will be a miniscule minority in doing so. This country does not deserve democracy.

    Quietrot, I'll be voting no,

    Do I know what the text is?...Nope
    Do I know what exactly the rules and regulations wil be?....Nope

    .....But I have a good idea about what's going to be in it, I read a lot about European politics and to be honest I fear that this treaty is actually going to be worse than I have imagined. People who are saying no are not just blindly saying no even though they have no clue whatsoever what we're voting for, it's not like we're going to finally get the text and come across some lovely surprises in it so get off your high horse.
    Jenroche wrote: »
    It won't matter what way we vote. If we get it wrong, they'll just make us vote again until we give the answer they want. Why even bother?

    So that we can at least try to stand up for ourselves?



    gerryo777 wrote: »
    There is always a choice.

    Are we going to continue making the wrong choices??

    There comes a time when people have to stop being so naive and actually start making the correct decisions.
    People can't hide behind their votes anymore like they did with Lisbon saying 'oh I voted yes because they promised jobs'.
    We know the government are liars, it's time for people to start educating themselves and time for people to stop blindly going along with the governments lies.

    Fine Gael are not even trying to pull the wool over peoples eyes anymore, nothing they have done has been for the good of this country.

    I
    If you do wish to vote No then do it for the right reasons, and not through bitterness or because you think the Government are incapable of anything.

    The same can be said for those voting yes, I knew people who voted yes to Lisbon and their reasoning behind it was "well If the shinners are saying no...then i'm voting yes"


    eth0 wrote: »
    Why are RTE reporting on polls that says there will be a yes vote? is it propaganda or are we boardsies only a bunch of contrarians?

    Of course it's propaganda.....plus they're excluding the undecided voters which makes it look like there is more support than there actually is.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,230 ✭✭✭sdanseo


    Yes, this little North Atlantic rock can't keep impeding European progress I say.

    You're going to vote for European progess rather than IRISH progress?

    That's just plain, undiluted selfishness.

    A YES vote to this will be two fingers to Ireland. Hey EU, here's our pass card and PIN, do what you want with it. Cheers.


  • Registered Users Posts: 43,274 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    sdeire wrote: »
    You're going to vote for European progess rather than IRISH progress?

    Unfortunately both futures are usually intertwined, Euro and UK exports are huge and outside that, the US is a huge market. I haven't noticed much opposition from the US unlike Lisbon, the neo-cons aren't in power I suppose.

    Anyway, I can't see how this affects Irelands progress. I've asked a couple of No voters on politics to outline their strong reservations, yet to hear back.

    My own reservation would be this idea Governments can have one-off investments in infrastructure. The Treaty doesn't appear to put limits on tax, if SF or the Socialist party want to introduce a 100% wealth tax tomorrow and cut PS pay to a limit of 80k, all is good, nothing in the Treaty bans either option, as long as it improves the Budget.

    They want to invest €10 Billion in a few different projects, the impression I'm getting is permission needs to be asked, even if progress is being made on the Budget. Not liking that. Needs more clarification there.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,303 ✭✭✭Temptamperu


    lucylu wrote: »
    The “fiscal compact” outlines the closer integration of the national budgets of the 17 eurozone countries.
    It imposes a new legal framework and greater fiscal scrutiny to try and avoid a repetition of some of the dubious financial practices that triggered the euro crisis. The treaty also agrees to strengthen mechanisms that guarantee short-term stability to euro economies in trouble.

    The treaty must be ratified by January 2013 and will take effect once it is ratified by 12 of the 17 euro zone countries.

    The treaty will be signed in March 2012 and will enter into force once it has been ratified by at least 12 euro area member states. It will be legally binding as an international agreement and will be open to the EU countries which do not sign it at the outset. The aim is to incorporate it into EU law within five years of its entry into force.

    The Fiscal Treaty requires EU Member states to a) keep their budget deficit below 3 per cent of gross domestic product (GDP) and b) ensure their public debt does not exceed or is sufficiently declining towards 60 per cent of GDP.Furthermore, the member states will have to incorporate this “balanced budget rule” into their national legal systems, preferably at constitutional level. The deadline for doing so is one year at the latest after the entry into force of the treaty.

    Automatic penalties, including fines, will kick in if signatories exceed deficit limits unless a qualified majority of eurozone states opposes such penalties. Currently, the eurozone already has a so-called excessive deficit procedure that is supposed to kick in once a country exceeds the three per cent of GDP cap on national budget deficits set out in the Maastricht criteria. But in the past, the procedure has not been enforced as rigorously as it should be since governments often allied with partner states and used their majority to reinterpret the rules and avoid fines and other sanctions.

    Legal action can be taken in the European Court of Justice against governments which breach it. The court may impose a penalty “appropriate in the circumstances” and which does not exceed 0.1 per cent of the country’s GDP.

    Treaty participants may temporarily deviate from their country-specific objectives “only in exceptional circumstances” and provided the deviation does not endanger medium-term fiscal sustainability



  • Registered Users Posts: 882 ✭✭✭ygolometsipe


    yes (twice) then (No) then (Yes) then (No) then (No) then (No) then (Yes)


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,328 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Boards polls are out of step with newspapers polls, the 2012 Election Poll, The Household Charge Poll and this one here.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,303 ✭✭✭Temptamperu


    Boards polls are out of step with newspapers polls, the 2012 Election Poll, The Household Charge Poll and this one here.
    Thats because newspaper polls are made up. ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    Boards polls are out of step with newspapers polls, the 2012 Election Poll, The Household Charge Poll and this one here.

    Employing some kid to stand on Grafton street filling out some 'aul krap while he texts his mates does not make a poll. Asking a diverse group of people does.

    Nowhere more diverse than AH.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 20,328 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    squod wrote: »
    Employing some kid to stand on Grafton street filling out some 'aul krap while he texts his mates does not make a poll. Asking a diverse group of people does.

    Nowhere more diverse than AH.

    I should have said polls conducted for newspapers by polling organisations using scientific methods like these:

    The results of this opinion poll are based upon a representative sample of 914
    eligible Irish voters aged 18 years +.
    As such, the results can be deemed to be accurate to within plus or minus 3.3
    percentage points at the 95% confidence level.
    Fieldwork was conducted over the period 15th – 20th February, 2012, with
    interviewing carried out at the Behaviour & Attitudes Computer Aided Telephone
    Interviewing (CATI) Unit at Milltown House in Dublin.
    Interviewing was conducted across all 43 constituencies in the country with
    households selected for interview by way of Random Digit Dialling (RDD).
    The sample is split across RDD landline numbers and RDD mobile telephone numbers,
    so as to ensure that individuals living in landline only households, mobile only
    households, and households with both a landline and mobile telephone are
    represented in their correct proportions.

    The subsequent survey results are weighted to reflect the known demographic profile
    of Irish adults, utilising the most recently published census population estimates
    from the Central Statistics Office (CSO).
    All aspects of the survey are conducted in accordance with the technical and ethical
    guidelines set down by the Association of Irish Market Research Organisations
    (AIMRO) and the European Society of Opinion & Market Research (ESOMAR).


    This survey gave Sinn Fein 25% support, not the 37% they get on Boards.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    squod wrote: »
    Employing some kid to stand on Grafton street filling out some 'aul krap while he texts his mates does not make a poll. Asking a diverse group of people does.
    You really don't have the first idea about how polling works.
    squod wrote: »
    Nowhere more diverse than AH.
    Its 'diverse' for sure


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    dvpower wrote: »
    You really don't have the first idea about how polling works.

    ........and you do? FFS


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    squod wrote: »
    ........and you do? FFS
    I do. Would you like me to teach you?
    I think we would have to start at remedial level.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    Fieldwork was conducted over the period 15th – 20th February, 2012, with
    interviewing carried out at the Behaviour & Attitudes Computer Aided Telephone
    Interviewing

    Fieldwork with Telephone Interviewing. That's double dutch for what I just said. How is that poll more reliable than this one? Are you saying AH specifically represents a certain demographic profile?

    Are you actually being serious or is this just more trolling?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    dvpower wrote: »
    I do. Would you like me to teach you?

    There's nothing I want from you.
    dvpower wrote: »
    I think we would have to start at remedial level.

    I could teach you a lesson.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,308 ✭✭✭Ricardo G


    Not sure what way i'm going to vote, but i just ate half a block of white cheddar cheese and i must admit it was fantastic...


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    Jesus this thread is depressing. The vast majority of those who are going to vote against the treaty are proud to be doing so for reasons that have little or nothing to do with the treaty.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,080 ✭✭✭lmaopml


    Einhard wrote: »
    Jesus this thread is depressing. The vast majority of those who are going to vote against the treaty are proud to be doing so for reasons that have little or nothing to do with the treaty.

    Too true. At the moment I'm reading up..

    I haven't come across a spectacularly good reason for voting 'no' to it, that didn't sound rather insular - I can't see how bringing fiscal policy into line during a time of crisis and signing up to a policy of non stupidness, is a dreadful thing in order to not only demonstrate a more secure foundation for the Euro, which can only be good for Ireland, but also to benefit the country as a whole into the future.

    I'm as pissed as the next person over some of the bondholders, and the lack of movement from the ECB, and of course those excuses for it - but the burn em all brigade are even worse imo.

    The year of going from one giveaway budget to the next buying votes budget should be put behind us imo - It's a good thing to plan a course over a number of years and take a sensible route. The country hasn't fallen apart, even if things have been really tough.. I'm a young parent with two children and I work in the private sector so I know exactly how tough it is...In saying that, I'm not willing to vote 'no' willy nilly, or unless a really good arguement presents itself.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    Einhard wrote: »
    Jesus this thread is depressing. The vast majority of those who are going to vote against the treaty are proud to be doing so for reasons that have little or nothing to do with the treaty.

    I'm all for it. If it was being held in five years from now. I reckon we're broke. I reckon this won't solve that and will make life harder. Bad timing maybe, I can understand every German's enthusiasm for it.


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