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Internet Card Sharing is Illegal but...

  • 25-07-2010 11:23am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 745 ✭✭✭


    Is it illegal to card share within a LAN?

    I have a FreeSat from Sky card for Channel 4 HD and the extra Five channels. I was thinking of using this card to card share between two linux boxes within my house. Would I be breaking the law by doing so?

    It seems like a grey area to me!


«13

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,859 ✭✭✭JDxtra


    I think so, yes. You are deliberately circumventing the protection on the card. Doing it on your LAN or across the web is no different - even if you don't pay a monthly sub for the card.

    Expect this thread to be locked...


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    It's not a Grey Area.

    It's theft of service under Irish law. The copyright owners can sue also, or Sky on their behalf.

    But if you obtain access to any service (Gas, Electric, Cable TV, phone, Satellite Pay TV) by any means not authorised by the supplier, it's Theft.

    It's not even a FTV card any more. But a Sky "Freesat from Sky" pay TV card that simply has once off payment and some "puppy dog" content and ability to have monthly subscription. The card is also sky/NDS property

    Even providing information as to how to steal a service is a criminal act in Irish Law.

    Nothing Grey about it!

    An original BBC solas (real FTV) card may have been a grey area. Current "Freesat from Sky" cards are once off payment pay TV cards, not FTV cards.


  • Registered Users Posts: 745 ✭✭✭RogerThis


    So it a bit like coping DVD's, even though you have paid for it, you are not entitled it copy it. It's breaking copyright protection.

    Still seems like a grey area to me.


  • Registered Users Posts: 745 ✭✭✭RogerThis


    watty wrote: »
    It's not a Grey Area.

    It's theft of service under Irish law. The copyright owners can sue also, or Sky on their behalf.

    But if you obtain access to any service (Gas, Electric, Cable TV, phone, Satellite Pay TV) by any means not authorised by the supplier, it's Theft.

    It's not even a FTV card any more. But a Sky "Freesat from Sky" pay TV card that simply has once off payment and some "puppy dog" content and ability to have monthly subscription. The card is also sky/NDS property

    Even providing information as to how to steal a service is a criminal act in Irish Law.

    Nothing Grey about it!

    An original BBC solas (real FTV) card may have been a grey area. Current "Freesat from Sky" cards are once off payment pay TV cards, not FTV cards.

    Isn't it piracy not theft?


  • Registered Users Posts: 894 ✭✭✭Willbbz


    Pirates are thieves! YARHAR :pac:


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  • Registered Users Posts: 745 ✭✭✭RogerThis


    Isn't it piracy to record TV onto DVD's?

    Isn't it piracy to use a TV distributor to other TV's?


  • Registered Users Posts: 745 ✭✭✭RogerThis


    I can't seem to find much info on the net about Irish copyright laws. But I did find that St Patrick was captured but Irish Pirates here and the first case of copyright law in the world came in Ireland here

    Isn't wikipedia great!


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    RogerThis wrote: »
    So it a bit like coping DVD's, even though you have paid for it, you are not entitled it copy it. It's breaking copyright protection.

    Still seems like a grey area to me.

    No, it's not primarily copyright, though you can be sued for that too.

    It's primarily theft of service. Not about "copying".

    Same as if you had no card.


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    RogerThis wrote: »
    Isn't it piracy to record TV onto DVD's?
    That is a grey area if it's for personal use. If you do it for someone else it's copyright violation.
    RogerThis wrote: »
    Isn't it piracy to use a TV distributor to other TV's?
    No. As it's the same channel if a Sky box and they explicitly allow it, as long as it's your own house.

    non-Pay TV can be distributed to any number of TVs in your own house, but for a whole village that would be a public Cable TV and you then need to pay royalty to the content providers.


    Neither of these examples are related to stealing a PayTV service. It's not "card sharing", it stealing a service as sky charge extra for extra receivers' cards. The "card sharing" HW& SW gives additional receivers access to a service. Legally it's no different to encrypted cable or Satellite reception hacking without so called "card sharing".


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,496 ✭✭✭GerardKeating


    RogerThis wrote: »
    So it a bit like coping DVD's, even though you have paid for it, you are not entitled it copy it. It's breaking copyright protection.

    Still seems like a grey area to me.

    Not exactly the same thing, one might seen a legitimate need for a back up copy of the DVD, so that the original can stored in a safe place to prevent damage, and the copy can be used, but in this case, you are only using one version/copy of the DVD.

    The main purpose of card sharing is to allow for multiple copies of the card to be used, so it's not really the same thing and not gray in any way.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 745 ✭✭✭RogerThis


    watty wrote: »
    No, it's not primarily copyright, though you can be sued for that too.

    It's primarily theft of service. Not about "copying".

    Same as if you had no card.

    It is breaking the encryption key, which is the same as DVD copying.


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Stealing Service: DPP Criminal Conviction, up to €5,000 fine and up to 6 months jail
    Violation of Copyright: Sky has to sue you. Civil suit. No limit to liability.

    You are doing both if you use "Card Sharing".
    http://www.siliconrepublic.com/new-media/item/9778-gardai-seize-70k-worth-of/
    In October [2007], Sky secured judgment against Liam O'Brien and Satellite and TV Services Ltd, trading as Aertec with an address in Dublin, for the unauthorised supply of Sky's channels and satellite reception equipment to a number of hotels throughout the country.

    The case, before Judge Kelly in the High Court, was ruled following settlement between the parties, granting permanent injunctions restraining further infringement of Sky broadcasts and restraining the supply of equipment to facilitate other infringing of Sky's copyright.

    In addition, €40,000 was paid by the defendants to Sky in damages for copyright infringement.

    There is nothing "grey" about it. I don't understand why you want to argue it's "only" copyright violation. That's a civil matter with no limitation of liability.

    Stealing a service *IS* on the Irish Statute book as a criminal offence. With specified tarriff. Channels decrypted by "Free sat from Sky" card are as much a service in Irish law as Cable TV, phone, Electricty or Gas.

    Sky can even get a court order to get your IP and time/date of post and then a court order from the ISP to get your identity (for civil case of Copyright). Or the Garda could for a criminal case of Theft of Service.

    Or a future/current Employer could realise these posts are you.

    So your insistence to keep digging is idiotic.
    You asked
    Is it illegal to card share within a LAN?
    The simple answer is yes, it's theft of service, criminal.

    Copyright is a separate issue and is Civil Law, not Criminal law, so "illegal" in the normal sense doesn't apply. The injured party has to sue. It's not up to the Garda.


  • Registered Users Posts: 745 ✭✭✭RogerThis


    watty wrote: »
    That is a grey area if it's for personal use. If you do it for someone else it's copyright violation.


    No. As it's the same channel if a Sky box and they explicitly allow it, as long as it's your own house.

    non-Pay TV can be distributed to any number of TVs in your own house, but for a whole village that would be a public Cable TV and you then need to pay royalty to the content providers.


    Neither of these examples are related to stealing a PayTV service. It's not "card sharing", it stealing a service as sky charge extra for extra receivers' cards. The "card sharing" HW& SW gives additional receivers access to a service. Legally it's no different to encrypted cable or Satellite reception hacking without so called "card sharing".

    Are you going by Sky rules are Irish law?

    Irish law won't let you copy TV to DVD.

    I have been reading the Term and Condition that came with my card. In the Viewing card terms, it stated "(c) Only you may use the Viewing Card which we send you. You can only use the Viewing Card at your address which you have given to your service provider ("Address") and with the Box in which it is first authorised to receive encrypted digital satellite services. You must only use it for private viewing purposes. You must not use it for any commercial or business purposes or in any premises other than your Address unless you have an agreement with your service provider(s) that allows otherwise."

    So I would not be breaking Sky rules by card sharing.

    http://www1.sky.com/skyviewinghelp/terms.html


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    You ring and tell them and see how quick they turn off your card.
    You will be breaking Irish law and your Agreement with Sky.
    You can only use the Viewing Card at your address which you have given to your service provider ("Address") and with the Box in which it is first authorised to receive encrypted digital satellite services.
    Singular.


  • Registered Users Posts: 745 ✭✭✭RogerThis


    watty wrote: »
    Stealing Service: DPP Criminal Conviction, up to €5,000 fine and up to 6 months jail
    Violation of Copyright: Sky has to sue you. Civil suit. No limit to liability.

    You are doing both if you use "Card Sharing".
    http://www.siliconrepublic.com/new-media/item/9778-gardai-seize-70k-worth-of/


    There is nothing "grey" about it. I don't understand why you want to argue it's "only" copyright violation. That's a civil matter with no limitation of liability.

    Stealing a service *IS* on the Irish Statute book as a criminal offence. With specified tarriff. Channels decrypted by "Free sat from Sky" card are as much a service in Irish law as Cable TV, phone, Electricty or Gas.

    Sky can even get a court order to get your IP and time/date of post and then a court order from the ISP to get your identity (for civil case of Copyright). Or the Garda could for a criminal case of Theft of Service.

    Or a future/current Employer could realise these posts are you.

    So your insistence to keep digging is idiotic.
    You asked

    The simple answer is yes, it's theft of service, criminal.

    Copyright is a separate issue and is Civil Law, not Criminal law, so "illegal" in the normal sense doesn't apply. The injured party has to sue. It's not up to the Garda.

    It still a grey issue, I don't distribute my FreeSat from Sky card to any hotels around the country. It would cost Sky a lot more than £20 to take a civil case against me for the FreeSat for Sky card. So I not scared of getting a civil case.

    Obtaining services by deception Is this the law I would be breaking?
    No such offence as theft of service, even though it is quoted quite a lot on boards.

    Seem to be just as grey as copying DVD's, recording TV or buying foreign satellite cards, so you can watch the footy.


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    There is.

    What happens if you tap into Cable TV or ESB meter? It's Theft of a service.

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1990/en/act/pub/0024/sec0009.html#zza24y1990s9

    You could be charged maybe with "Obtaining services by deception" too, a laywer would know.

    You are also breaking the rules by trying to argue that "Card sharing" is a Grey area. You are Promoting it, which is illegal and against Forum rules
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055001439
    What are we NOT allowed to talk about here?
    To simplify things, you cannot talk about anything illegal, or anything that can get Boards.ie Ltd into trouble.
    This includes:

    * "Hacking" or "Patching" or illegally obtained decoders not for public pay TV use of any kind, to enable free reception of any encrypted or scrambled signal whatsoever.
    * Cloning of viewing cards.
    * Sharing of viewing cards.
    * Forum trading of any sort.
    * Illegal firmware downloads

    Having a "Free sat from Sky" card is Grey area. Sharing it is not. Buy some more from Sky. (It's receiving stolen goods to buy them from 3rd party, and theft to sell it to a third party).

    The rules here and the Irish Laws are quite clear.


  • Registered Users Posts: 745 ✭✭✭RogerThis


    watty wrote: »
    The rules here and the Irish Laws are quite clear.

    The rules on boards are clear, but I didn't discuss the how to set up or promote card sharing, I only argued that it was a grey area, in certain situations.

    The Irish Laws are as clear as mud.


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    No, It's illegal if it's a PayTV card. The "Free sat from Sky card" is not a FTV card, it's a promotional PayTV card.

    Arguing that something that is illegal is a grey area encourages people to break the law. So you are promoting card sharing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 745 ✭✭✭RogerThis


    watty wrote: »
    No, It's illegal if it's a PayTV card. The "Free sat from Sky card" is not a FTV card, it's a promotional PayTV card.

    Arguing that something that is illegal is a grey area encourages people to break the law. So you are promoting card sharing.

    The FreeSat from Sky is a FTV card that can be upgraded to a pay TV.
    Unless you upgrade it, it is a FTV card. You were the only one to mention using card sharing with a pay TV card, not me.

    I only use the card for FTV, and have no intention on ever upgrading, and I won't be able to as it's not registered to my address.

    The FreeSat for Sky is the only FTV card available for the UK. I haven't used the card for card sharing.


    So is it illegal to card share within a FTV card such as FranSat within a LAN?


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    The Sky card is not a "FTV" card, The FTV scheme is dead.

    "Free sat from Sky" is a once payment "pay Tv" card. Nothing to do with former FTV schemes.

    Ask Fransat about their card.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 745 ✭✭✭RogerThis


    The FreeSat from Sky card can only be FTV in Ireland as it can't be upgraded.

    So FTV cards could be legal to card share!


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,134 ✭✭✭✭Oat23


    Isn't sharing your cards across a LAN not the same as using one of those SmartWi card splitters that are sold in many satellite shops?

    Are they illegal?


  • Registered Users Posts: 745 ✭✭✭RogerThis


    As far as I'm concerned, it should be legal to card share within one's home.

    Can you imagine having to pay per every electrical point in you house, or having to pay separately for every internet enabled computer you had in your home!

    For electricity, the energy needs to be created, so they charge per megawatt, but it don't cost the satellite companies anything if you have a second receiver attached. Only the cost of the second receiver. So if you supply your own equipment it doesn't cost them anything.


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    You might as well say it should be legal to connect a box that's hacked and doesn't need a card at all to UPC cable or Sky because it doesn't cost extra.

    Or that you shouldn't have to pay a TV licence because it doesn't cost anyone extra for you to watch TV.

    You're a parasite if you believe it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Oatesy23 wrote: »
    Isn't sharing your cards across a LAN not the same as using one of those SmartWi card splitters that are sold in many satellite shops?

    Are they illegal?
    They are not Legal.


  • Registered Users Posts: 745 ✭✭✭RogerThis


    watty wrote: »
    You might as well say it should be legal to connect a box that's hacked and doesn't need a card at all to UPC cable or Sky because it doesn't cost extra.

    Or that you shouldn't have to pay a TV licence because it doesn't cost anyone extra for you to watch TV.

    You're a parasite if you believe it.

    I pay my TV licence, one per household not by TV.

    If you pay for a service, you should be entitled to do with it what you like with the confines of your home.

    Next you'll be saying that people are parasites for having a second computer hooked up to their internet connection. It would be the case If the ISP's had there way, but technology was too quick for them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    The ISP allows you to use the connection for more than one of your computers, but not for the neighbour or street usually. I used to work for an ISP, so I'm familiar with them and your allegation is nonsense.

    It's not logic that counts or what you want. It's the terms and condition of the Service that counts. Cable TV and pay TV is not sold here like Internet access. It's strictly their card per box. Anything else breaks their terms for supplying the service as they charge per setbox and only permit their card to be used for one set-box.

    Either you are deliberately obtuse or a troll. This is clear in Irish Law, in UPC and Sky Terms and Conditions and the rules and FAQ of the Forums for Satellite, Foriegn satellite and Cable.

    None of your analogies or wishful thinking applies. It's not a FTV card, so there is no Grey area. It's illegal (criminal), as well as breaking the T&C and making you liable to civil suit. A civil suit will award costs to the injured party and other damages, not just the £20 or whatever a "Freesat from sky" card costs. You need to study up before using the Forums here as soap box to encourage people to break the law. You could be increasing the Damages that could be awarded.

    I have nowhere said it's legal to share a FTV card. It's possibly a grey area. But it's utterly pointless as real FTV cards are cheap or a small annual fee (depending on Country) and readily available to those intended to have them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 147 ✭✭garrycann78


    I'm with you on this one roger. Share away and watty i think parasite is a strong word to be using. Would that not be slander under "Irish law"


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    RogerThis wrote: »
    The FreeSat from Sky card can only be FTV in Ireland as it can't be upgraded.
    Nonsense
    If you obtained the "Freesat from Sky" card legitimately it can be used for a UK sub. An "Irish" Credit card will work too. You need a UK address. Of course you won't get TV3 and will only get RTE1, RTE2 and TG4 in N.I. postcodes.

    FTV is a scheme operated by various National Broadcasters to Fill In Terrestrial coverage that is Missing. The "Freesat from Sky" card is not such a scheme. The UK FTV scheme is finished. All the UK national Channels are on Freesat (FTA) to replace missing terrestrial coverage for the PSB mux.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 745 ✭✭✭RogerThis


    In the FreeSat from Sky terms and condition:

    "Your viewing card
    You may only use your Viewing Card for private viewing purposes at your Address in the UK, the Isle of Man or the Channel Islands. For security reasons Viewing Cards may be inactivated from time to time. In this situation, if you wish to continue to receive all the encrypted Free to View channels, you will have to purchase a new viewing card at our then applicable standard charge. If possible, viewing card inactivations will be advertised on your television screen."

    "Viewing Card: means the card which will allow you to receive encrypted Free to View Channels when used with a Box."

    Sky seem to think it's a Free To View card.

    Why don't you?


This discussion has been closed.
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