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Am I paying rent to often?

2

Comments

  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Hi, it does seem to me that the landlord is trying to pull a fast one. Would get on to these - statutory agency for dealing with this type of sharp practice...

    https://www.prtb.ie/

    Best of luck in your new home :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,058 ✭✭✭Sarn


    That is really sly on the landlord's part. The ad indicating €500/month was deliberately misleading. The way it is set up means that there are now 13 "months" in the year. While it may be possible to class a month as four weeks, I imagine that that is very unusual and goes against the spirit of rental terms.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,238 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    Jelly 292 wrote: »
    Hi Icepick -



    Exactly what is on contract:

    Temporary letting agreement for *********,********,Co.Waterford.

    Monthly (four weekly) tenancy commencing **th March 2012 untill ** March 2013

    1. To pay rent of €500 per month which does not include bin tags etc ect


    What do you think?

    If this is word for word what the contract says then you pay €500 per (calendar) month and not a penny more. If it was worded as €125 per week or €500 per four weekly period then fair enough, but the wording of the amount of the rent is €500 per month, which is not the same as €500 every four weeks.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 768 ✭✭✭Jelly 292


    That is really sly on the landlord's part

    Yeah, my blood is boiling. Its only when I looked at next rent due date that the penny dropped. I should have queried her when she mentioned the rent being 125 p/w after I paid the first months rent. I was busy and it was muttered to me while she passed out the door.
    I decided to pay monthly anyhow so I did not dwell on it, now I see the next due date and Im raging. Foolish me.

    What bugs me is that they are nice folks (seemingly) the place is nice, they are reg'd with PTRB. It all seemed above board and honest. but they are pulling this cheap , fast one. Surly they don't expect me not to notice. admittedly, took me a month but I was not expecting devious behavior.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 768 ✭✭✭Jelly 292


    Cheers djimi, The wording is exactly that on the contract.

    You hit it on the head I think. They have drawn up a contract with 2 contradictory statements regarding the rent. I'm feeling better now I have a more solid angle to come at her from


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,001 ✭✭✭Mr. Loverman


    It is possible the landlord is not being sly. It is possible she is simply thick. Talk to her calmly and nicely before you go all Team America on her ass.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,042 ✭✭✭Mr.Wemmick


    I agree with talking to her calmly too.. if she is nice and the place is too, then give her the benefit of the doubt. Tell her you think she has made a mistake as you only took the property based on what you could afford: 500 per month as advertised not 500 per 4 weeks.

    Hopefully, she'll back down and agree she has got the wording on the contract wrong.

    Let us know how you get on :)


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,950 ✭✭✭Milk & Honey


    GarIT wrote: »
    A month is a set period of time, no contract can change what a month means.

    If that was the case I could rent out a place say the rent is €100 per week and that my week is two days long.

    There are solar months and lunar months. The first is calendar month and the second is 4 weeks. A contract can say which is being used. The primary meaning of month in this jurisdiction is in fact lunar month.
    This was held by the Supreme Court in
    Vone Securities v Cooke [1979] IR 68 " in this country the primary meaning of ‘month’ is lunar month, "
    http://slr.oxfordjournals.org/content/2/1/43.extract


    See also


    http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/MONTH
    Webster's 1913 Dictionary

    Definition:
    \Month\, n. [OE. month, moneth, AS. m[=o]n?, m[=o]na?;
    akin to m[=o]na moon, and to D. maand month, G. monat, OHG.
    m[=a]n[=o]d, Icel. m[=a]nu?r, m[=a]na?r, Goth. m[=e]n[=o]?s.
    [root]272. See {Moon}.]
    One of the twelve portions into which the year is divided;
    the twelfth part of a year, corresponding nearly to the
    length of a synodic revolution of the moon, -- whence the
    name. In popular use, a period of four weeks is often called
    a month.

    Note: In the common law, a month is a lunar month, or
    twenty-eight days, unless otherwise expressed.
    --Blackstone. In the United States the rule of the
    common law is generally changed, and a month is
    declared to mean a calendar month. --Cooley's
    Blackstone.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,869 ✭✭✭odds_on


    Jelly 292 wrote: »
    Hi Icepick -

    Exactly what is on contract:

    Temporary letting agreement for *********,********,Co.Waterford.

    Monthly (four weekly) tenancy commencing **th March 2012 untill ** March 2013

    1. To pay rent of €500 per month which does not include bin tags etc ect


    What do you think?
    temporary letting agreement ?????
    I am sure that the LL does not realize that after you have been in occupation for 6 months, you have the right to stay in the property for a total of 4 years under a Part 4 tenancy. No such thing as temporary, it is contrary to the RTA 2004.

    Looks like a home made legal lease agreement and the rest is probably full of legal errors, not to mention clauses contrary to the RTA 2004. You cannot have monthly and 4 weekly - it is contradictory; it must be monthly or 4 weekly.

    Without the full details of the agreement it is quite possible that it does not have all the detailed requirements for a rent book. Most leases also act as the rent book but I would have my doubts here. Ask the landlord/lady for a rent book. Ask her if the tenancy is registered with the PRTB.

    If you could PM me with a copy of it I will have a look and see (though I am not a legal expert)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,707 ✭✭✭✭Tigger


    you were tricked

    the old landlords and their 13th month trick its as old as the hills

    good luck and let us know how you get on


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,053 ✭✭✭BornToKill


    Interpretation Act 2005, section 21:


    “month” means a calendar month;


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,707 ✭✭✭✭Tigger


    BornToKill wrote: »
    Interpretation Act 2005, section 21:


    “month” means a calendar month;

    yay

    :cool:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 24 jen84


    It is possible the landlord is not being sly. It is possible she is simply thick. Talk to her calmly and nicely before you go all Team America on her ass.

    Ha, she could quite possibly be thick!! I was out for dinner with a bunch of old mates recently & one of the lads new girlfriends was trying to tell us (like it was a massive revelation!) how in fact pregnancy was 10 months instead of 9!

    So apparently theres 40 weeks of pregnancy, which divided by 4 weeks in every month is 10 months!!- in her calculations,

    Oh dear.... we all politely nodded


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,950 ✭✭✭Milk & Honey


    odds_on wrote: »
    temporary letting agreement ?????


    Looks like a home made legal lease agreement and the rest is probably full of legal errors, not to mention clauses contrary to the RTA 2004. You cannot have monthly and 4 weekly - it is contradictory; it must be monthly or 4 weekly.

    If you could PM me with a copy of it I will have a look and see (though I am not a legal expert)

    I agree you are no legal expert. The Interpretation Act 2005 only applies to interpreting statutes.
    4.—(1) A provision of this Act applies to an enactment except in so far as the contrary intention appears in this Act, in the enactment itself or, where relevant, in the Act under which the enactment is made.

    (2) The provisions of this Act which relate to other Acts also apply to this Act unless the contrary intention appears in this Act.


    A lease is a contract and the common law rules apply.
    The word month in a lease without qualification means 4 weeks. If intended to mean calendar month then the words "calendar month" should be used.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,238 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    A lease is a contract and the common law rules apply.
    The word month in a lease without qualification means 4 weeks. If intended to mean calendar month then the words "calendar month" should be used.

    So by that logic does the word "year" mean 13 months instead of 12? Because you cannot have it both ways!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭edellc


    Look just tell her there is 12 months in a year :rolleyes:and that is what you are going to pay her for, the advert said 500 or whatever it was monthly so therefore you pay her monthly not weekly, what date did you move in and what ever that is tell her you are setting up a direct debit to go into her account for the amount advertised on that date, end of, take the situation by the balls and you dictate what is going to happen if she is that stupid she should be easy to get around

    In future read the contact before you sign it as it doesnt matter if your landlady is thick or not you agreed to her stupidity and signed it :eek:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,869 ✭✭✭odds_on


    I agree you are no legal expert. The Interpretation Act 2005 only applies to interpreting statutes.
    4.—(1) A provision of this Act applies to an enactment except in so far as the contrary intention appears in this Act, in the enactment itself or, where relevant, in the Act under which the enactment is made.

    (2) The provisions of this Act which relate to other Acts also apply to this Act unless the contrary intention appears in this Act.


    A lease is a contract and the common law rules apply.
    The word month in a lease without qualification means 4 weeks. If intended to mean calendar month then the words "calendar month" should be used.
    Thank you Milk and Honey, always a mine of information, especially when it comes to the actual law.

    Personally I have always taken a month to mean a calendar month and 4 weeks to mean 4 weeks.

    Thus, in the RTA 2004 when it states that a tenant acquires Part 4 rights after six months, this means six calendar months and could not be misconstrued as 24 weeks. I often wondered why, for example, in the table of termination times it is given in days and not weeks. Is there something similar in law as regards to the length of a week?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,950 ✭✭✭Milk & Honey


    odds_on wrote: »
    Thank you Milk and Honey, always a mine of information, especially when it comes to the actual law.

    Personally I have always taken a month to mean a calendar month and 4 weeks to mean 4 weeks.

    Thus, in the RTA 2004 when it states that a tenant acquires Part 4 rights after six months, this means six calendar months and could not be misconstrued as 24 weeks. I often wondered why, for example, in the table of termination times it is given in days and not weeks. Is there something similar in law as regards to the length of a week?


    In the RTA a month means a calendar month. That is because of the Interpretation Act 2005. A week is 7 days and there is no controversy.
    Month has at least 7 different meanings, three of them mainstream in this jurisdiction. In banking and accounting there is a definition of a month as 30 days. Some banks pay 30 days interest every month and thus 360 days in a year. Most of them charge interest 365 days a year however. Some pay out 360 days and charge 365 days.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,869 ✭✭✭odds_on


    In the RTA a month means a calendar month. That is because of the Interpretation Act 2005. A week is 7 days and there is no controversy.
    Month has at least 7 different meanings, three of them mainstream in this jurisdiction. In banking and accounting there is a definition of a month as 30 days. Some banks pay 30 days interest every month and thus 360 days in a year. Most of them charge interest 365 days a year however. Some pay out 360 days and charge 365 days.
    Thanks again Milk & Honey.
    Now that you mention it, I do vaguely remember interest being paid on 30 day month.

    Nothing like making life simple for the simple!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 768 ✭✭✭Jelly 292


    Well, I had a chat with LL and its sorted.

    At first when I rang the response was' well its 500 per month but I collect every 4 weeks'
    So I politely explained the problems with this to which she just repeated the above quote! I went through the issues again with her and suggested I sould be paying on the same day every month. i.e. the 27th , and she said fine, no problem and Ill see you on rent day.
    So I think LL knew full well what they were at but they folded straight away once I laid out the facts as I saw them. It all ended politely and no bad vibes, I think.

    So thanks boardsies for all your help and suggestions of approach, your all lifesavers :)

    Lesson learnt!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,238 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    Good to see a positive outcome! It does rather sound like they were trying it on in the hope that you wouldnt notice...


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,198 ✭✭✭✭JohnCleary


    Jelly 292 wrote: »
    Well, I had a chat with LL and its sorted.

    At first when I rang the response was' well its 500 per month but I collect every 4 weeks'
    So I politely explained the problems with this to which she just repeated the above quote! I went through the issues again with her and suggested I sould be paying on the same day every month. i.e. the 27th , and she said fine, no problem and Ill see you on rent day.
    So I think LL knew full well what they were at but they folded straight away once I laid out the facts as I saw them. It all ended politely and no bad vibes, I think.

    So thanks boardsies for all your help and suggestions of approach, your all lifesavers :)

    Lesson learnt!

    Tell them you'd prefer to pay into their bank account directly as you don't carry xxx amount of cash on you ever and that it's more convenient for both parties to have electronic transfers... see what the reaction is and keep us updated :pac:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 768 ✭✭✭Jelly 292


    LL was not interested in bank transfers, she basically said : alright,cash, ill see you on the 27th. The thick plottens.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,238 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    Jelly 292 wrote: »
    LL was not interested in bank transfers, she basically said : alright,cash, ill see you on the 27th. The thick plottens.

    Just make sure that you are getting receipts.

    Personally in this day and age I find the idea of paying rent in cash to a landlord to be absolutely laughable; no way I would entertain the idea of meeting up with them once a month to hand them a wad of bills. If they dont have a bank account into which I can transfer money then I wouldnt trust them as far as I could throw them.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,950 ✭✭✭Milk & Honey


    djimi wrote: »
    So by that logic does the word "year" mean 13 months instead of 12? Because you cannot have it both ways!

    There are 13 lunar months in a year. What of it?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,502 ✭✭✭irlirishkev


    djimi wrote: »
    Just make sure that you are getting receipts.

    Personally in this day and age I find the idea of paying rent in cash to a landlord to be absolutely laughable; no way I would entertain the idea of meeting up with them once a month to hand them a wad of bills. If they dont have a bank account into which I can transfer money then I wouldnt trust them as far as I could throw them.

    Couldn't agree more with this, and I'm a landlord. Frankly the thought of having to 'collect' the rent seems archaic.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,180 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Also the hassle of having to meet her. You should arrange to pay by dd, but rest transfer the money online hate dd


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,911 ✭✭✭aN.Droid


    ted1 wrote: »
    Also the hassle of having to meet her. You should arrange to pay by dd, but rest transfer the money online hate dd

    I would never go direct debit with a landlord there is no need to do that. Standing order is what should be used.


  • Registered Users Posts: 989 ✭✭✭piperh


    djimi wrote: »
    Just make sure that you are getting receipts.

    Personally in this day and age I find the idea of paying rent in cash to a landlord to be absolutely laughable; no way I would entertain the idea of meeting up with them once a month to hand them a wad of bills. If they dont have a bank account into which I can transfer money then I wouldnt trust them as far as I could throw them.

    My brother and his wife paid cash every month and they drove out to the landlords house 40km away to put it through his letterbox. :rolleyes::rolleyes: They got no receipts or had no contract although after 7yrs i assume they were part 4. I always thought this was bang out of order and after an issue (of their own making) last year i repeatedly told them they needed receipts as they had no proof they'd paid their rent. They'd never had rent book and no receipts after the first 12mnths when the rent went up. Stupid i know.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,180 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Limericks wrote: »
    ted1 wrote: »
    Also the hassle of having to meet her. You should arrange to pay by dd, but rest transfer the money online hate dd

    I would never go direct debit with a landlord there is no need to do that. Standing order is what should be used.
    I concour if my predictive text worked rest would have said really. Hence the hate dd part.


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