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Hijab, Niqab or Nothing interview

  • 28-12-2011 9:06pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 81,223 ✭✭✭✭


    A pretty interesting interview with three Muslim women about whether it's ok to wear nothing, just a hijab or the full face covering niqab.



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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,621 ✭✭✭Jaafa


    Pretty good video.

    The women in this video clearly have thought a good bit about their choice and that's want you want, you can easily see that none of these women have been forced to make those choices. While I personally wouldn't be for the niqab instead of the hijab, I believe it should be left up to the women to decide that.
    The idea that a lot of people propagate is that all women in Islam are forced to where the niqab or Hijab and while there is truth in it, things aren't nearly as clear cut as that.

    The lady not wearing any kind of covering chose some poor points to make against the hijab or niqab. She was basically saying 'People here think we're weird and won't talk to us, therefore we should conform'. A lot better arguments than that to be made.

    The point about why men don't have any image restrictions on them was brought up and not fully addressed I think. The fact is men are supposed to cover up as much as possible too, and grow some sort of beard.

    Lastly I'd like to make the point that a lot of women in Islam who wear the niqab or hijab don't only wear it as a religious obligation, but as a means of presenting a kind of image, and to display their beliefs in a way that is clear but yet doesn't effect or annoy anyone else (for the most part.) I know a lot of women who feel a sort of pride to wear the hijab, just as someone feels pride wearing their national colours or carrying the flag of their country.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    sonia khan wrote:
    Does it state in the Koran you're supposed to wear a hijab. I don't think it ... I don't think there's a clear statement, understanding by a lot of I think philosophers of. Islam scholars ... There is no clear understanding on that matter. that is exactly what you need to wear. There is no clear understanding on that matter.

    "This paint and perfume, this mirage, a garden’s blooming face
    You thought, simpleton, and your cage a downy nesting‐place.


  • Registered Users Posts: 81,223 ✭✭✭✭biko


    Although the Nothing woman doesn't come across as articulate and well versed as the others I think she has the best point though.
    It doesn't clearly state in the Quran to cover the faces of women, and the major point - as long as Muslim women wears the Niqab they will be viewed as different by the host society, in this case Canada.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,621 ✭✭✭Jaafa


    biko wrote: »
    Although the Nothing woman doesn't come across as articulate and well versed as the others I think she has the best point though.
    It doesn't clearly state in the Quran to cover the faces of women, and the major point - as long as Muslim women wears the Niqab they will be viewed as different by the host society, in this case Canada.

    Your right the quran doesn't state exactly what should be worn. It says:
    And say to the faithful women to lower their gazes, and to guard their private parts, and not to display their beauty except what is apparent of it, and to extend their headcoverings (khimars) to cover their bosoms (jaybs), and not to display their beauty except to their husbands, or their fathers,


    The key part is in bold.

    It should be up to the women to decide what is 'apparent of it'. Some may say that is their face, others may feel their beauty is their personality or such. That women chose to wear the niqab as she felt that is what is suitable. The women who wore the hijab because she felt that is what was needed. Whats wrong with them choosing?

    Sonia Khan point no matter how eloquently she could have put it still boils down to 'they see us differently therefore we should stop wearing niqab/hijab to make them feel more comfortable'. That's a very poor argument IMO.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    biko wrote: »
    Although the Nothing woman doesn't come across as articulate and well versed as the others I think she has the best point though.
    It doesn't clearly state in the Quran to cover the faces of women, and the major point - as long as Muslim women wears the Niqab they will be viewed as different by the host society, in this case Canada.
    She isn't talking about covering of face... She is talking about Hijab. See, i tell you quran is a message, which is revealed to prophet muhammad. The best way to understand quran, is to look upon life of Prophet Muhammad, his companions, his household. The procedure for offering Prayer isn't mentioned in whole Quran, Where do we get that procedure. We get that Procedure from saying of Prophet or Hadiths. Does it mean, as procedure of Prayer isn't mentioned in quran so there is no need to offer prayer... Sonia khan is just showing her ignorance about Quran and life of Prophet Muhammad and his household... She had used the way of dishonesty by explaining a verse which was revealed in some special context.... She had tried to fool audience.
    There is whole chapter in Sahih Bukhari.
    http://hijab.pbworks.com/w/page/18210123/Hadith%20of%20Sahih%20Bukhari
    http://muslimways.com/search-3.html?ordering=newest&searchphrase=any&searchword=hijab
    What sonia khan is saying, if we should start following it, then there is no need to offer prayer, as quran doesn't clearly state how to offer prayer.... There is no need to do Hajj, as procedure of Hajj isn't mentioned in Quran... She is just trying to become to smart to fool innocent mind... Pardon me, i often speak truth, I hope you wouldn't mind.
    Can i ask to Sonia khan and her lovers, Are those muslim fool who offer prayer yet quran doesn't give procedure about prayer


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  • Registered Users Posts: 81,223 ✭✭✭✭biko


    Well it seems clear that you deadone don't agree with wearing Nothing since you react so strongly to Miss Khan. So would you have all Muslim women wear the hijab or full face covering niqab/burka.

    Would you go as far as the Saudi CPVPV and have moral police arresting women with "tempting eyes"?

    "May Allah have mercy on the early immigrant women. When the verse "That they should draw their veils over their bosoms" was revealed, they tore their thick outer garments and made veils from them."
    http://www.cmje.org/religious-texts/hadith/abudawud/032-sat.php#032.4091
    Does this mean all Muslim women should cover their face?

    In Egypt, perhaps the most liberal Arab country along with Lebanon. Wiki:
    In 1923, Hoda Shaarawi made history when, while waiting for the press, she removed her veil in a symbolic act of liberation. The veil gradually disappeared in the following decades, so much so that by 1958 an article by the United Press (UP) stated that "the veil is unknown here."

    However, the veil has been having a resurgence since the 1970s, concomitant with the global revival of Muslim piety.
    According to The New York Times, about 90 percent of Egyptian women currently wear a headscarf. Small numbers of people wear the niqab. The secular government does not encourage women to wear it, fearing it will present an Islamic extremist political opposition.

    Mohammad Tantawi, a leading Islamic scholar in the country and the head of Al-Azhar University, issued a fatwa in October 2009 arguing that veiling of the face is not required under Islam.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,644 ✭✭✭theg81der


    "and not to display their beauty except what is apparent of it," I would read this as except what is natural ie no make up or enhancements?This element of the muslim religion really frightens me. I feel it somehow propages the idea that women are asking for or deserve it if something happens to them. Its just so anti-woman I can`t believe that thse 2 women are not brain washed in some way. They have to wear these garmend to be thougth of in a certain way and to send a message to the world about them - what message? I don`t get anything positive from them it just backs up what I already thought.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    biko wrote: »
    Well it seems clear that you deadone don't agree with wearing Nothing since you react so strongly to Miss Khan. So would you have all Muslim women wear the hijab or full face covering niqab/burka.
    sorry for being late. Full face covering, it isn't mandatory in Islam. I mean, it is choice of woman who wishes to cover her face or not. On the other hand, hijab is necessary for all muslim women. It is wish of Allah that muslim women cover their body parts properly and muslim women consider it as their religious right. They are commanded by Allah to cover their body parts. Those muslim women, like sonia khan, who don't wish it, it is their personal choice. They don't represent Islam at all. You will find such types of muslim woman in whole world. See, Summiah Khan, she is representing true islamic culture in the program. On the other hand, Sonia is islamilizing her wrong doings which makes her no less than a hypocrite. See, i give you simple example, Suppose i am a heavy drinker, I like wine and beer, and every body knows alcohol isn't allowed in Islam but i Islamilize (legalize) my drinking by picking out of context verses of quran and then try to tell other people, look, look, Alchol is allowed in islam. That is what Sonia is doing. She doesn't like hijab, She wants open dress which might attrack other men, So that her business keep going.
    biko wrote: »
    Would you go as far as the Saudi CPVPV and have moral police arresting women with "tempting eyes"?
    I don't need do anything. I am telling you true side of Islam that is honesty on my part. Where as sonia khan is dishonest as she islamlizing her wrong doings. Saudis don't represent at all. Islam is, Quran and teaching of Prophet of Muhammad. If suadis aren't following islam then you shouldn't pick them as an example to torch your reason. It is an act of childish levity. See, it is same, you like sonia khan and her point of view and i pick action of sonia khan to malign you. What would you say.
    biko wrote: »
    "May Allah have mercy on the early immigrant women. When the verse "That they should draw their veils over their bosoms" was revealed, they tore their thick outer garments and made veils from them."
    http://www.cmje.org/religious-texts/hadith/abudawud/032-sat.php#032.4091
    Does this mean all Muslim women should cover their face?
    Saudis government isn't pure islamic government, Some rules of Islam have been implemented there. But that doesn't make Saudis a pure Islamic State. See, i tell you, Saudis, in some aspects, are maligning Islam and it isn't good to pick their example to represent Islam. If you truly want to understand Islam don't look on these governments, Majority of Muslims countries are being ruled by hypocrites and tyrants. They implement what they like in their countries. It isn't good pick such example. I know you've hate in your mind against Islam. but think for a moment, keeping that hate away from your mind. What you are doing is same as, one or bunch of athiest abuse me, and I start abusing whole community of atheism. You're doing the same thing. Please think for a while what you're doing.
    You like sonia khan and her points. I have got no problem with it . I have problem with sonia khan when she islamizes her point. Thank you and peace


  • Registered Users Posts: 81,223 ✭✭✭✭biko


    Perhaps you can clarify for me: which is the best Islamic state and how should women dress, according to you?
    If I ask wahabists they will say Saudi Arabia.
    If I ask Shia they will say Iran.
    If I ask Sunni..., well they are majority and in too many places to count.

    800px-Madhhab_Map2.png


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    biko wrote: »
    Perhaps you can clarify for me: which is the best Islamic state and how should women dress, according to you?
    800px-Madhhab_Map2.png
    I have got no idea what you are trying prove. I have given you answer, how muslim woman look like:confused:... See my above post, I said, Summiah hussain, the woman in Hijab, is truly representing Islam in the video.
    For best Islamic state, you're judging book by its cover. If you want to see islam, then see life of Prophet, his teaching and Quran. I mean, if all the muslims in the world, become hypocrites, then you should blame these muslims for their hypocrisy. That will be honesty on your part, on the other hand, You don't blames these states which aren't following Islam, but your attitude in this practice of ignorance is to blame Islam. These states don't represent Islam, in these states, few muslims are practicing muslim, Majority of Muslim in these states, and their actions don't represent islam, as they aren't following islam in their actions.
    Muhammad was orphaned at an early age. He once remarked that, "Heaven lies at the feet of mothers." As the father of four daughters in a society that prized sons, he told other fathers that, if their daughters spoke well of them on the Day of Judgment, they would enter paradise."
    biko wrote: »
    If I ask wahabists they will say Saudi Arabia.
    If I ask Shia they will say Iran.
    If I ask Sunni..., well they are majority and in too many places to count.
    You don't need ask anyone. Ask to your heart, it will guide you. Your heart will tell the truth, i can give you hint, i hope you wouldn't mind. See, truth is, there is prejudice in your heart against Islam, You've irrational fear of Muslims and you see all islam in prism of that fear but that isn't reality. The fear with which your heart is suffering, is result of hypocrisy of media. Media is brainwashing majority of people about Islam. They represent Islam as violent religion by giving out of context verses of Quran. See, the extremistrism with which the world is suffering, it isn't because of Islam, It is because of those who want to occupy muslim lands and their resources and in this whole plan they are using hyena tactics to malign Islam and muslims. The war which you see in the world, it's just will of few men and remember truth is always first causality of war. Be on the side of truth or history will forget you.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 80 ✭✭nyan warrior


    Islam is just organisised sexism. All people are equal regardless of gender. Islam should be forced to accept this and change accordingly


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,410 ✭✭✭oceanclub


    Elsewhere, it seems that some ungrateful women aren't taking too kindly to gangs of men telling them what to wear:

    http://bikyamasr.com/53028/egyptian-women-cane-morality-police/?utm_source=Facebook+Resharer&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=WordSocial
    Vigilante gangs of ultra-conservative Salafi men have been harassing shop owners and female customers in rural towns around Egypt for “indecent behavior,” according to reports in the Egyptian news media. But when they burst into a beauty salon in the Nile delta town of Benha this week and ordered the women inside to stop what they were doing or face physical punishment, the women struck back, whipping them with their own canes before kicking them out to the street in front of an astonished crowd of onlookers.

    P.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    theg81der wrote: »
    I feel it somehow propages the idea that women are asking for or deserve it if something happens to them. Its just so anti-woman I can`t believe that thse 2 women are not brain washed in some way. They have to wear these garmend to be thougth of in a certain way and to send a message to the world about them - what message? I don`t get anything positive from them it just backs up what I already thought.
    Do you get anything positive when women expose their parts in public? These two women are aware of their dignity, beauty and honor. That's why they have chosen the way of modesty, pity and faithfulness, on the other hand, those women are brainwashed who advertise their parts to get money --- to attract men -- to flourish business. They trade their beauty with their soul. I mean, they sell their soul for their beauty. The beauty of woman, isn't in her display but it lies in her modesty. See, Summiah hussain, She looks like an angel, an angel of modesty, a lake of innocence, A river of virtue, An ocean of purity. She is faithful to her husband, her family, on the other hand, sonia khan, looks like a devil of arrogance, a Valcano of pride which is going to erupt in a moment and ready to corrupt the world with it lava.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,644 ✭✭✭theg81der


    dead one wrote: »
    Do you get anything positive when women expose their parts in public? These two women are aware of their dignity, beauty and honor. That's why they have chosen the way of modesty, pity and faithfulness, on the other hand, those women are brainwashed who advertise their parts to get money --- to attract men -- to flourish business. They trade their beauty with their soul. I mean, they sell their soul for their beauty. The beauty of woman, isn't in her display but it lies in her modesty. See, Summiah hussain, She looks like an angel, an angel of modesty, a lake of innocence, A river of virtue, An ocean of purity. She is faithful to her husband, her family, on the other hand, sonia khan, looks like a devil of arrogance, a Valcano of pride which is going to erupt in a moment and ready to corrupt the world with it lava.

    What a load of abosulute sexist rubbish. I have a muslim friend who has thought me alot about modesty she doesn`t wear anything and these arrogant veil snobs give her so much grief she doesn`t even go to mosque here in this country. She thinks alot of the muslim community here are the opposite of what her religion teaches they are very radical and showy, definetely not the modest behaviour I see in my friend.

    What parts is the unveil lady exposing exactly? So all the rest of the women who wear what they want are...........what exactly are you saying I am, am I also a devil of arrogance because I don`t hide my face or hair?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,621 ✭✭✭Jaafa


    theg81der wrote: »
    What a load of abosulute sexist rubbish. I have a muslim friend who has thought me alot about modesty she doesn`t wear anything and these arrogant veil snobs give her so much grief she doesn`t even go to mosque here in this country. She thinks alot of the muslim community here are the opposite of what her religion teaches they are very radical and showy, definetely not the modest behaviour I see in my friend.

    What parts is the unveil lady exposing exactly? So all the rest of the women who wear what they want are...........what exactly are you saying I am, am I also a devil of arrogance because I don`t hide my face or hair?

    I have seen this before and have heard of it from others to. It is an unfortunate rivialy that develops between Muslims, each trying to prove they are somehow better Muslims than others, judging others spreading rumors and strife. It's unacceptable and hypocritical as you say.

    That said you must understand that these women have not been brainwashed and frankly it's an insult to them, you'd be a fool to see that obviously they have thought long and hard about their choice and have come to the conclusion that it's the one they want. My mother wears a headscarf, my cousins wear, each of them have expressed their reasons for doing so and it's clearly not due to brainwashing. In fact my two female cousins are sisters, one wears a hijab the other does not. How can you claim brainwashing in that case?

    I can see you have reason to hate and so you only see the bad,but you must believe me when I say what happened to friend is the exception not the rule, keep your mind open and be willing to accept that most women in Islam are perfectly happy as they. Islam has given a lot to women, allowing divorce hundreds of years before most European countries for example. Yes abuses happen, yes sexism is there, but so does it happen in Ireland. In Iran, what is considered here in the west to be a fundamentalist country, women are members of parliament, they have run for president, they work as Judges, they have more women in college than men!

    No society is perfect, if I were you I'd work to fix the problems in your own before trying to change another.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,771 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    Looking at the video, I have to say how shallow the niqab/hijab reasons are. The niqab/hijab women seem to be under the impression that their character, personality and contribution to society would be negated or obscured by their physical form, and that if they weren't covered up, they wouldn't have a voice or opinions. Why would their contribution to society be undermined if their face or hair could be seen? Why do they see their personality and social presence so much in terms of their physical presence? It all seems to be "I'm so beautiful that I couldn't function if people could see all of me, I need to cover up for people to know the real me". But if the real you, your voice, opinions and contribution to society, isn't dependent on your physical appearance, then cover it up to the point of emphasising it? Its possible to dress conservatively without wearing a tent.
    Jaafa wrote:
    The women in this video clearly have thought a good bit about their choice and that's want you want, you can easily see that none of these women have been forced to make those choices. While I personally wouldn't be for the niqab instead of the hijab, I believe it should be left up to the women to decide that.
    The idea that a lot of people propagate is that all women in Islam are forced to where the niqab or Hijab and while there is truth in it, things aren't nearly as clear cut as that.

    Their is a difference between a well articulated response and a well thought out response. These women's responses still fall afoul of the logical inconsistencies of the responses from women who are physically coerced into wearing head coverings.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,621 ✭✭✭Jaafa


    Looking at the video, I have to say how shallow the niqab/hijab reasons are. The niqab/hijab women seem to be under the impression that their character, personality and contribution to society would be negated or obscured by their physical form, and that if they weren't covered up, they wouldn't have a voice or opinions. Why would their contribution to society be undermined if their face or hair could be seen? Why do they see their personality and social presence so much in terms of their physical presence? It all seems to be "I'm so beautiful that I couldn't function if people could see all of me, I need to cover up for people to know the real me". But if the real you, your voice, opinions and contribution to society, isn't dependent on your physical appearance, then cover it up to the point of emphasising it? Its possible to dress conservatively without wearing a tent.


    Their is a difference between a well articulated response and a well thought out response. These women's responses still fall afoul of the logical inconsistencies of the responses from women who are physically coerced into wearing head coverings.

    That's ridiculous in fairness, they never said anything close to that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,771 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    Jaafa wrote: »
    That's ridiculous in fairness, they never said anything close to that.

    Yes they did. First the niqab woman described her face covering as helping her present herself "as the sum of her character and personality and contribution to society" and "enabling her to go through a path of spiritual discovery" (35 seconds onwards). Then the hijab woman said her hijab was a message to other people to "judge her based on who she is and what she dose and not how she looks" (1min 35 secs onwards). They consider their physical appearance so dominating in social situations that one covers all but her face, while the other covers all but her eyes.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,410 ✭✭✭oceanclub


    Yes they did. First the niqab woman described her face covering as helping her present herself "as the sum of her character and personality and contribution to society" and "enabling her to go through a path of spiritual discovery" (35 seconds onwards). Then the hijab woman said her hijab was a message to other people to "judge her based on who she is and what she dose and not how she looks" (1min 35 secs onwards). They consider their physical appearance so dominating in social situations that one covers all but her face, while the other covers all but her eyes.

    The irony, of course, is that doing these things in an environment where they are not normally done means you're drawing attention to the very things you're trying to hide.

    P.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    Looking at the video, I have to say how shallow the niqab/hijab reasons are. The niqab/hijab women seem to be under the impression that their character, personality and contribution to society would be negated or obscured by their physical form, and that if they weren't covered up, they wouldn't have a voice or opinions. Why would their contribution to society be undermined if their face or hair could be seen? Why do they see their personality and social presence so much in terms of their physical presence? It all seems to be "I'm so beautiful that I couldn't function if people could see all of me, I need to cover up for people to know the real me". But if the real you, your voice, opinions and contribution to society, isn't dependent on your physical appearance, then cover it up to the point of emphasising it? Its possible to dress conservatively without wearing a tent.
    I have a dirty little habit of telling the truth, I hope you wouldn't mind.
    Looking at your society, I have to say, how hollow is it. See, problem is, the reason of hijab aren't shallow, you are living in a shallow society. A society which observes no rules. A society, which at one place, presents women in strips clubs, on the other hands, the same society present women as sex object in mind of youth. These two women, in the video, have submitted to the will of God and submission to the will of God, is the source of all freedom. It liberates their minds, souls, and behaviours from the evil influences of the world. It helps them to overcome oppressive tyrants, unjust laws, lusts, deviation and psychological complexes which enslave their will. Don't you see kingship of lusts and slavery of will of around. Majority of westren movies/daramas contains obscene gestures,explicit language,and graphic images. Media uses face/hair/part of women/men as a mean to to attract customers. You see they control customer's mind by presenting women parts. It's pretty sh!tty business.
    Why would their contribution to society be undermined if their face or hair could be seen?
    Are you talking about such types of contribution to society, See, how has your society contributed in destroying dignity and honor of women in minds of youth. In order to present face and hair of women, the same society spit on entire existence of women, You say, reason for hijab are shallow, you have your own reason, but you forget an OCEAN SHALLOWNESS IN THE DEEPPER PARTs of your society.
    These women's responses still fall afoul of the logical inconsistencies of the responses from women who are physically coerced into wearing head coverings.
    Its seem you've already made up your mind against islam, No woman is coerced in islam. Islam doesn't support coercion. Sonia Khan, she is pure example for this, She is muslim and she has chosen her own way which doesn't represent islam. If women were coerced in Islam then why would Sonia khan misuse Islam.
    oceanclub wrote: »
    The irony, of course, is that doing these things in an environment where they are not normally done means you're drawing attention to the very things you're trying to hide.
    P.
    Why are you eager to see hidden things. Why do you have desire to see hidden thing. Can't you control yourself. That is exactly purpose of Hijab. To control lust which forces you to see hidden things.
    P;


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    theg81der wrote: »
    What a load of abosulute sexist rubbish. I have a muslim friend who has thought me alot about modesty she doesn`t wear anything and these arrogant veil snobs give her so much grief she doesn`t even go to mosque here in this country. She thinks alot of the muslim community here are the opposite of what her religion teaches they are very radical and showy, definetely not the modest behaviour I see in my friend.

    What parts is the unveil lady exposing exactly? So all the rest of the women who wear what they want are...........what exactly are you saying I am, am I also a devil of arrogance because I don`t hide my face or hair?
    You have a muslim friend, She had her own reason to hate Islam and you are seeing Islam in her distorted views. She had her own reasons but it doesn't make her views universal. You are indirectly saying 5 fingers are equal. by this, you are contradicting universality. Muslims are of two types like any community, The Good Muslims and the Bad Muslims. Bad Muslims misuse Islam or don't follow Islam. May be your friend had meet some bad muslims and this situation lead her to blame whole community of Islam. But it doesn't make Islam bad, it is making your friend bad as she is using a very narrow approach . See, i would be foolish if i blame whole community of christian or jews for crimes of single or few christians/ Jews. Please correct yourself.
    theg81der wrote: »
    What parts is the unveil lady exposing exactly? So all the rest of the women who wear what they want are...........what exactly are you saying I am, am I also a devil of arrogance because I don`t hide my face or hair?
    See, for this you've to see dress of Summiah Hussain, I don't know how you look like honestly i don't like the way sonia has presented herself. She looks like a Man, She is looking very arrogant in presenting herself, She even doesn't know what she is talking about, Her arrogance has put veil on her mind, on the other hand, See Summiyah Hussain, words fall from her mouth as flower in the garden. She knows what she is talking about, that is exactly purpose of Hijab, She knows what she is, thanks and peace


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,410 ✭✭✭old_aussie


    dead one wrote: »
    She isn't talking about covering of face... She is talking about Hijab. See, i tell you quran is a message, which is revealed to prophet muhammad. The best way to understand quran, is to look upon life of Prophet Muhammad, his companions, his household.

    The life of the prophet muhammad, is that the same fella who implemented islam with the aid of the sword and put you to the sword if you refused to convert to islam?

    So, if muhammad didn't get his way he killed you, or am i missing something in the religion of love!


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    old_aussie wrote: »
    The life of the prophet muhammad, is that the same fella who implemented islam with the aid of the sword and put you to the sword if you refused to convert to islam?

    So, if muhammad didn't get his way he killed you, or am i missing something in the religion of love!
    Ah!!! i see, how did muhammad spread islam in Indonesia and Malaysia, if your above quote is true. He must had some magical staff which controls minds.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,771 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    dead one wrote: »
    Looking at your society, I have to say, how hollow is it. See, problem is, the reason of hijab aren't shallow, you are living in a shallow society. A society which observes no rules. A society, which at one place, presents women in strips clubs, on the other hands, the same society present women as sex object in mind of youth.

    Firstly, non sequitor. Even if I was living in a shallow society, that wouldn't make the reasons for the hijab any less shallow. Secondly, laws are another word for rules and since my society has laws, which people observe, i dont see how my society observes no rules. Thirdly, youths dont need any help from society to see women as sex objects, if they did, then their would be no need for the niqab/hijab in islamic societies, as no-one would see women as sexual objects in the first place.
    dead one wrote: »
    These two women, in the video, have submitted to the will of God and submission to the will of God, is the source of all freedom.

    Contradiction. You aren't free if you submit your will to someone else' will.
    dead one wrote: »
    It liberates their minds, souls, and behaviours from the evil influences of the world.

    Yes, it liberates them by hiding them under a tent :rolleyes:
    dead one wrote: »
    It helps them to overcome oppressive tyrants, unjust laws, lusts, deviation and psychological complexes which enslave their will. Don't you see kingship of lusts and slavery of will of around. Majority of westren movies/daramas contains obscene gestures,explicit language,and graphic images. Media uses face/hair/part of women/men as a mean to to attract customers. You see they control customer's mind by presenting women parts. It's pretty sh!tty business.

    Are you talking about such types of contribution to society, See, how has your society contributed in destroying dignity and honor of women in minds of youth. In order to present face and hair of women, the same society spit on entire existence of women, You say, reason for hijab are shallow, you have your own reason, but you forget an OCEAN SHALLOWNESS IN THE DEEPPER PARTs of your society.

    I'm beginning to regret responding to you (and its only the middle of the first response). You are just making blind assertions that are the intellectual equivalent of "I know you are, but what am I". The thing is, even if my society was as shallow as a flat plane, that still wouldn't make the hijab/niqab less shallow.
    dead one wrote: »
    Its seem you've already made up your mind against islam, No woman is coerced in islam. Islam doesn't support coercion. Sonia Khan, she is pure example for this, She is muslim and she has chosen her own way which doesn't represent islam. If women were coerced in Islam then why would Sonia khan misuse Islam.

    A "no true scotsman" response that doesn't even have anything to do with what I said. These womens response, coerced or not, still have the same flaws as those of women who were coerced.
    dead one wrote: »
    Why are you eager to see hidden things. Why do you have desire to see hidden thing. Can't you control yourself. That is exactly purpose of Hijab. To control lust which forces you to see hidden things.
    P;

    What, by hiding even more things? How does that even begin to make sense? You dont remove the control some mysterious idea has on people (in this case, the female form) by making it more mysterious.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,264 ✭✭✭✭Hobbes


    Can I kindly remind people to attack the post, not the poster. Thanks.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    Firstly, non sequitor. Even if I was living in a shallow society, that wouldn't make the reasons for the hijab any less shallow.
    Honestly, deep down, you have more shallowness, ask to yourself, if you're shallow inside, how could you recognize what is shallow or not. You've grown in a society which is fake and superficial, The same society has brainwashed you about concept reality and superficiality and You have lost your reason and taken the wrong path. You have taken lies for truth. The thought that you have the right to step out in liberty at any moment will poison your whole existence. You, in your mind think, that reality is superficial and shallow. See, that isn't problem with yourself. The problem is that You've grown in a society which is purely based on superficiality, a society which takes superficiality instead of reality. Take example of women, Aren't women in your society look so superficial. See, Sonia Khan, She is muslim, but, she is inspired by western culture. Doesn't she look superficial, Like I said, she is looking like male member of society. A society where females look like males and males look like female. That is what they call ocean of shallowness. I hope you would understand, I am trying to tell you that when you say reason for hijab are shallow, you're right, that fault isn't with yourself, the fault is with society in which you've been brainwashed. You have taken superficiality thinking it as reality.
    Secondly, laws are another word for rules and since my society has laws, which people observe,
    i dont see how my society observes no rules.
    Your society has laws/rules, but the thoughts of members of this society follow no rules, I am talking about freedom of thoughts. Your thoughts observe no rules and that is dangerous to your society. As you'r seeing consequences of this in your society. "" Man is a thinking creature. Of necessity he forms opinions. If curbs are placed on the independent expression of his views, the content of his thought may remain unchanged, but his ideas will never find expression in his speech and writings. Islam promote freedom of thoughts by removing the curbs. Curbs, imposed by a community or a state, will ultimately produce a society of hypocrites. No sincere person can ever flourish in such a repressive atmosphere. It is only freedom of thought and expression which can save man from hypocrisy". You thoughts observe no rules, it means you've the curbs in your thoughts.
    Thirdly, youths dont need any help from society to see women as sex objects, if they did, then their would be no need for the niqab/hijab in islamic societies, as no-one would see women as sexual objects in the first place.
    Hijab is signal of respect to the desires of men. the moment a man looks at a woman with any brazen or unashamed thought in mind, he should lower his gaze. That is hijab is necessary for youth, who deson't know real status of women. What your youth has been doing in university and colleges, Ask to yourself Mark Hamil. The reason for this, the woman aren't of Summiah Hussain's kind, and they don't know about their real status.
    Contradiction. You aren't free if you submit your will to someone else' will.
    Ah i see, God's will isn't someone else's will. God knows what slaves human will. God knows what desires put slavery on human's will, that's why he has chosen special dress for female members of his creation.
    Yes, it liberates them by hiding them under a tent :rolleyes:
    No, it liberates them from your evil desires.
    I'm beginning to regret responding to you (and its only the middle of the first response). You are just making blind assertions that are the intellectual equivalent of "I know you are, but what am I". The thing is, even if my society was as shallow as a flat plane, that still wouldn't make the hijab/niqab less shallow.
    I, in my above quote, have given you clear reason, when you say, the reason for hijab are shallow, Your comment don't have value in the eyes of justice, as you have take superficiality as reality.
    A "no true scotsman" response that doesn't even have anything to do with what I said. These womens response, coerced or not, still have the same flaws as those of women who were coerced.
    "Coercion", Isn't it popular word these days. It is often said, not least by Western folks, that Moslems women are forced into wearing a hijab/burka/veil and that therefore there should be a lock against this sort of coercion, as in the bans sought by uropean politicians. However, I have never seen any of these debates include an obstruction to shapes of coercive power per se.

    So on the other hand, Mooslems women are said to be forced into wearing a veil or , there is exceptionally any question of anyone else being forces into wearing whatever it is that they wear. And yet, if I appeared in work today with a T shirt that read I Am A Wage Slave, I would come up against with legally sanctioned disciplinary action from my employer, and many of those who say against Mooslem women wearing a burka, on account of its relational-ship with force, would say, that in fact I had freely chosen to destroy company rules and that therefore I could have n0 problem if I ended up on the d0le.

    And clearly force into wearing particular cloths is by no means the sole manifestation of coercive power in everyday life. Capitalism requests all manner of forcible limits on people’s acti0ns -what they wear, what they say, how they work- on account of the fear of losing one’s livelihood, status and so on.

    But the result of any acti0n that goes against these limits is widely represented as the symbol of freedom. More important though is the implicit belief that any action to refrain from contravening these forcible extent is also free choice. I am tend toward to say, therefore, that what ‘lurks undr those shr0uds’ is simply an argument for forcible power in its uropean capitalist shape, in which everyone is held to be where they are honestly on account of the free (market) choices they have made.

    If this ‘right’ were to be somehow coerced, it would spell the end of telephones. And beards. And sunglasses.

    Let talk in usual way, all, Aren't these factors of coercion in your society

    1. Prostitutes/Hooker/Pimps
    2. Advertisement of women
    3. Women in half naked dresses in the streets
    4. Pornographic movies being sold online in chunks

    Why don't you write something on prostitution on the other hand you have problem with a piece of cloth.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    dead one wrote: »
    I have a dirty little habit of telling the truth, I hope you wouldn't mind.
    Looking at your society, I have to say, how hollow is it. See, problem is, the reason of hijab aren't shallow, you are living in a shallow society. A society which observes no rules. A society, which at one place, presents women in strips clubs, on the other hands, the same society present women as sex object in mind of youth. These two women, in the video, have submitted to the will of God and submission to the will of God, is the source of all freedom. It liberates their minds, souls, and behaviours from the evil influences of the world. It helps them to overcome oppressive tyrants, unjust laws, lusts, deviation and psychological complexes which enslave their will. Don't you see kingship of lusts and slavery of will of around. Majority of westren movies/daramas contains obscene gestures,explicit language,and graphic images. Media uses face/hair/part of women/men as a mean to to attract customers. You see they control customer's mind by presenting women parts. It's pretty sh!tty business.

    It's interesting how you keep saying you tell the truth. I have no desire to insult you but what you see as truthfulness comes across as arrogance and self-righteousness. Your sweeping generalisations are... well sweeping generalisations. I have travelled the world and there's one thing I'm sure about, that people are people. Strip away some superficial differences and people are the same all over the world. You seem to believe that men will suddenly become beasts by seeing a woman's uncovered head, this is utter nonsense. I very much appreciate the beauty of women, just like a sunset or a great painting. Sure I am sexually attracted to women but that doesn't mean I show any less respect.
    Your points might stand up if in Muslim countries woman were treated far better than in western countries but that's not true. In many Muslim countries women can't speak out about the terrible things that can happen to them. In Saudi Arabia women cannot drive a car, even when covered. Is that respect? Because that seems like control to me. It sickens me that a woman who is raped can be treated so badly in your society. I could go on but this isn't a competition, no society is perfect.

    According to you... "These two women, in the video, have submitted to the will of God and submission to the will of God, is the source of all freedom." Maybe I've missed something but where does God say that women have to be covered?

    I never understood from a logic point of view how some people can set their identity by covering up their identity. It makes no sense.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,771 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    dead one wrote: »
    See, Sonia Khan, She is muslim, but, she is inspired by western culture. Doesn't she look superficial, Like I said, she is looking like male member of society. A society where females look like males and males look like female. That is what they call ocean of shallowness. I hope you would understand, I am trying to tell you that when you say reason for hijab are shallow, you're right, that fault isn't with yourself, the fault is with society in which you've been brainwashed. You have taken superficiality thinking it as reality.

    The first half of this paragraph is an ad hominem and the only reason I dont label the second half of this paragraph as an ad hominem is that its not clear what you are saying at all. Khan looks superficial? Just because you can see her hair? Doesn't that make you superficial, not her? And, not that she does, what difference would it make that she looks like a male?
    dead one wrote: »
    Your society has laws/rules, but the thoughts of members of this society follow no rules, I am talking about freedom of thoughts. Your thoughts observe no rules and that is dangerous to your society. As you'r seeing consequences of this in your society. "" Man is a thinking creature. Of necessity he forms opinions. If curbs are placed on the independent expression of his views, the content of his thought may remain unchanged, but his ideas will never find expression in his speech and writings. Islam promote freedom of thoughts by removing the curbs. Curbs, imposed by a community or a state, will ultimately produce a society of hypocrites. No sincere person can ever flourish in such a repressive atmosphere. It is only freedom of thought and expression which can save man from hypocrisy". You thoughts observe no rules, it means you've the curbs in your thoughts.

    :confused: This is one big contradiction. First you say that my society has rules, but my thoughts have none and that is dangerous to society. But then you say that islam removes "curbs" (rules?) from thoughts and creates full freedom of thought and expression and that this avoid hypocrites and is good. So you are saying that Islam is trying to produce a society like mine, with no thought rules, but its good when islam does it, but not when my society does it. Can you make up your mind.
    dead one wrote: »
    Hijab is signal of respect to the desires of men. the moment a man looks at a woman with any brazen or unashamed thought in mind, he should lower his gaze. That is hijab is necessary for youth, who deson't know real status of women. What your youth has been doing in university and colleges, Ask to yourself Mark Hamil. The reason for this, the woman aren't of Summiah Hussain's kind, and they don't know about their real status.

    Its hardly respect if it denies it. Can you not just educate youths to know the real status of women? Would it not be better for societies to encourage a social growth and maturity in men themselves, instead of expecting women to change themselves, to alter their own identity, to suit men?
    dead one wrote: »
    Ah i see, God's will isn't someone else's will. God knows what slaves human will. God knows what desires put slavery on human's will, that's why he has chosen special dress for female members of his creation.

    You need to justify this more. How is gods will not someone else's will? Even if god was acting in our best interests and was completely right in his actions, it would still be his will that we are submitting to.
    dead one wrote: »
    No, it liberates them from your evil desires.

    But they aren't liberated, they have to constantly alter their identity to hide a part of themselves from me. They must live their public lives according to my "evil" desires. The only way for them to be truly free would be to educate me to control my desires.
    dead one wrote: »
    I, in my above quote, have given you clear reason, when you say, the reason for hijab are shallow, Your comment don't have value in the eyes of justice, as you have take superficiality as reality.

    But you havent explained why, you just assert that I haven't because my society is shallow. But what difference would that make? Hell, coming from a shallow society would enable me to recognise something else shallow easier than you, so I dont see the relevance.
    dead one wrote: »
    So on the other hand, Mooslems women are said to be forced into wearing a veil or , there is exceptionally any question of anyone else being forces into wearing whatever it is that they wear. And yet, if I appeared in work today with a T shirt that read I Am A Wage Slave, I would come up against with legally sanctioned disciplinary action from my employer, and many of those who say against Mooslem women wearing a burka, on account of its relational-ship with force, would say, that in fact I had freely chosen to destroy company rules and that therefore I could have n0 problem if I ended up on the d0le.

    And clearly force into wearing particular cloths is by no means the sole manifestation of coercive power in everyday life. Capitalism requests all manner of forcible limits on people’s acti0ns -what they wear, what they say, how they work- on account of the fear of losing one’s livelihood, status and so on.

    But the result of any acti0n that goes against these limits is widely represented as the symbol of freedom. More important though is the implicit belief that any action to refrain from contravening these forcible extent is also free choice. I am tend toward to say, therefore, that what ‘lurks undr those shr0uds’ is simply an argument for forcible power in its uropean capitalist shape, in which everyone is held to be where they are honestly on account of the free (market) choices they have made.

    If this ‘right’ were to be somehow coerced, it would spell the end of telephones. And beards. And sunglasses.

    As hard as it is to make out what your saying (and its really hard) it seems you are just saying that the west coerces people to wear some clothes, so islam should be able to do it to. How is that a defence?
    dead one wrote: »
    Let talk in usual way, all, Aren't these factors of coercion in your society

    1. Prostitutes/Hooker/Pimps
    2. Advertisement of women
    3. Women in half naked dresses in the streets
    4. Pornographic movies being sold online in chunks

    No, at least certainly not in the same way that religion is coerced upon people. No-one participates in these activities or has these activities presented to them (I honestly cant tell which way you are looking at these, are you saying people are coerced into these activities, or that these activities are used to coerce others?) with the emotive or physical pressures that religion uses. Children aren't told from a young age to partake or obtain these things under threat of some illogical physical, or metaphysical, danger to their soul or identities.
    dead one wrote: »
    Why don't you write something on prostitution on the other hand you have problem with a piece of cloth.

    Because it would be irrelevant to the point I'm making here. Id doesn't matter about any other society and how shallow they may be, the hijab/niqab is an incredibly shallow way to look at a womans presence, identity and contribution to society


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,410 ✭✭✭oceanclub


    Back home with the in-laws in Malaysia, I've been trying to gauge, with what percentage of Arab tourist/visitors, how many couples where the women is in niqab, the man is dressed modestly (arms/legs covered as I would if going to a mosque, bearded).

    Coming up with none so far.

    P.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 81,223 ✭✭✭✭biko


    I would probably go so far as to say that if you wear a face covering dress you're a fundamentalist Muslim as opposed to secular Muslims that don't cover their face or moderate Muslims that just wear a head scarf.
    Just like Amish would be fundamentalist Christians.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/11/world/middleeast/11iht-letter.html
    Zeinab Magdy, 21, started wearing the veil when she was a senior in high school. “Up until today I really don’t know why I put it on,” she said. “But a lot of it was peer pressure. A lot of people were starting to wear it; it felt like fitting in or belonging.”
    She cried profusely the first day she wore it because halfway through the day she wanted to take it off, but felt trapped.
    Fearing the social stigma associated with taking off the veil, Ms. Magdy continued to cover her hair for two and a half years, until she summoned the courage to reverse her decision halfway through college. She had joined a creative writing class, and by beginning to discover what she loved to do, she felt more sure of who she wanted to be.
    The veil was simply not a part of it, she admits. “I remember the sensation of the air in my hair,” she recalled with a twinkle in her eye.
    But now that the vast majority of women in Egypt are in fact veiled, it is no longer a mark of distinction, or even piety. It is not unusual to see a young veiled woman in tight jeans and a catchy top strutting provocatively down the street holding her boyfriend’s hand. And the veil, which represented some measure of respectability, no longer protects or prevents harassment on the street.
    This saturation of the veil has also given way for young women to mark their religiosity by putting on the niqab, a full face cover. According to a survey conducted by the Population Council in 2009, about 5 percent of Egyptian women from the ages of 15 to 29 now wear the niqab.
    “When you reach a new normal, people begin to distinguish themselves differently,” said Hania Shalaani, an expert in gender studies at the Social Research Center at the American University in Cairo. “Because the veil is no longer a sign of religiosity or respectability, it is expected to see this polarization.”
    Manal Mahmoud, 21, a graduate of English studies from Cairo University, wore the veil when she was 14 and upgraded to the niqab at the age of 17.
    Ms. Mahmoud said she was against covering her face until five of her friends, who started wearing the niqab one after the other in the span of one month, were criticized and attacked by teachers at school for wearing it. She eventually became convinced that it was the better choice and found that covering her face was a more sincere attempt to obey God than to merely cover her hair.


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