M17/M18 - Gort to Tuam [open to traffic]

glineli · 03-04-2012 8:26am

antoobrien wrote: »

Interestingly GCC has a €12m budget for works on the M17/18 in their 2012 roads programme.

Any ideas what these plans are or what they could do for 12m?

antoobrien · 03-04-2012 9:40am

glineli wrote: »

Any ideas what these plans are or what they could do for 12m?

Your guess is as good as mine, I didn't see any detail in the document the figure is included under a section that sets out the buget for "Major" works on the sections of the M6 in Galway (€4.7m total), Gort to Crusheen (€0.8m) and the M17.

At a guess due to the size of the allocation, its likely to be an allocation for some kind of preparatory or ancillary works e.g. fencing the route (how much will two sets of fences cost that run probably 60km if you include the slip roads)?

It's down form €22m budgeted in 2011 (when construction was supposed to start).

The 12m in this year is nearly 1/3 the total allocation, so if they don't get to spend any money of this project I hope it goes to regional & local roads because the roads budget was cut by 45% (was €68.34m) to €36.545m - that won't go far with 6,759 km of roads in the county.

antoobrien · 28-04-2012 7:46pm

It's probably nothing but driving on the M6 today, there was some work being done on the pylons at Rathmorrisey, where the M6 - M17/M18 junction is going to be located. Hard to tell what was going on (was driving) but it appeared they were re-routing the power cables to the north of the road and had land cleared of bushes & trees.

black47 · 29-04-2012 11:12am

antoobrien wrote: »

It's probably nothing but driving on the M6 today, there was some work being done on the pylons at Rathmorrisey, where the M6 - M17/M18 junction is going to be located. Hard to tell what was going on (was driving) but it appeared they were re-routing the power cables to the north of the road and had land cleared of bushes & trees.

Well, hopefully it's all enabling works for the scheme. Last I heard the scheme won't proceed until next year. The NRA will shift attention onto the negotiations when Newlands X/N11 works start in July. The Tuam to Collooney works appear to be progressing this year including the bad section at Milltown. I don't think there is any other alternative plan in place except for GT to proceed and hopefully it will asap. Sooner than next year if possible

galwayrush · 29-04-2012 11:16am

antoobrien wrote: »

It's probably nothing but driving on the M6 today, there was some work being done on the pylons at Rathmorrisey, where the M6 - M17/M18 junction is going to be located. Hard to tell what was going on (was driving) but it appeared they were re-routing the power cables to the north of the road and had land cleared of bushes & trees.

There are new power lines being installed and some upgrade works to the sub station at Cashla..

Charlie Charolais · 01-05-2012 12:30pm

Hi all,

would anyone have maps for the N17 Castletown realignment between Tuam + Milltown?

CC

Wild Bill · 02-05-2012 9:28pm

black47 wrote: »

The NRA will shift attention onto the negotiations when Newlands X/N11 works start in July.

If they start in July!

About 3 years ago they realigned some 400kv and 110kv lines to enable the M11; they were a wee bit premature.....

antoobrien · 03-05-2012 10:23am

black47 wrote: »

Well, hopefully it's all enabling works for the scheme. Last I heard the scheme won't proceed until next year. The NRA will shift attention onto the negotiations when Newlands X/N11 works start in July. The Tuam to Collooney works appear to be progressing this year including the bad section at Milltown. I don't think there is any other alternative plan in place except for GT to proceed and hopefully it will asap. Sooner than next year if possible

I heard a rumour (so take this with a pinch of salt) that they have to at least fence it off this year (before September I think) or the farmers who had the land bought off them get squatters rights on the land.

spacetweek · 03-05-2012 11:15am

antoobrien wrote: »

I heard a rumour (so take this with a pinch of salt) that they have to at least fence it off this year (before September I think) or the farmers who had the land bought off them get squatters rights on the land.

Pretty sure they fenced it off years ago, in 2004 I believe.

ki · 03-05-2012 12:00pm

spacetweek wrote: »

Pretty sure they fenced it off years ago, in 2004 I believe.

Not everywhere, my uncle has silage this summer on part of the land CPO'ed for the road

antoobrien · 03-05-2012 12:13pm

spacetweek wrote: »

Pretty sure they fenced it off years ago, in 2004 I believe.

You can see from the section of the M6 at Rathmorissey that there's no fences running north or south.

I'm pretty sure they didn't buy the land until later - more like 2009.

Edit - the cpo publication & oral hearing wasn't until 2006, so they couldn't have fenced it in 2004.

black47 · 03-05-2012 1:02pm

ki wrote: »

Not everywhere, my uncle has silage this summer on part of the land CPO'ed for the road

Tell him to try to get the first cut of silage done at least before they fence it off!!!

touts · 03-05-2012 1:12pm

Are the Farmers paying rent to the taxpayer for the use of public lands? Surely silage and other crops are at least part owned by the taxpayer. If not why not? I assume they were well paid in the first place to give up the ownership and use of the land.

KevR · 03-05-2012 1:32pm

I have seen sections fenced off. Not sure if it all is though.

the keen edge · 03-05-2012 3:06pm

touts wrote: »

Are the Farmers paying rent to the taxpayer for the use of public lands? Surely silage and other crops are at least part owned by the taxpayer. If not why not? I assume they were well paid in the first place to give up the ownership and use of the land.

We are generally talking about thousands of small irregular parcels of land with hundreds of different owners.
The cost of the administrative task in dealing with such a large number of different individuals for rental monies that in many cases might not amount to €100, would far exceed the money recovered.

If we were talking about a small number of individual landowners and large unbroken areas of land it would be a different matter.

It's also unlikely that the former land owners, who may not all be farmers, wouldn't lease back the land they previously owned anyway.

The other suggestion is to fence off the land, which prior to construction would be a complete waste of taxpayers, with absolute nil gain to anybody.

Victor · 03-05-2012 3:25pm

touts wrote: »

Are the Farmers paying rent to the taxpayer for the use of public lands? Surely silage and other crops are at least part owned by the taxpayer. If not why not? I assume they were well paid in the first place to give up the ownership and use of the land.

The land tends not to be paid for until it is needed and the price will depend on the crops.

JupiterKid · 03-05-2012 7:57pm

I wonder if archaeological digs and trenches along the route of the M18/M17 scheme have been carried out yet?

touts · 04-05-2012 6:42am

Victor wrote: »

The land tends not to be paid for until it is needed and the price will depend on the crops.

Well if no money has yet changed hands then that is OK.

However if the farmers have been paid for the land and are still using it then it would be very simple to look back at the records of what amount of land was bought and start to charge rent for that land.

the keen edge · 04-05-2012 7:12am

touts wrote: »

Well if no money has yet changed hands then that is OK.

However if the farmers have been paid for the land and are still using it then it would be very simple to look back at the records of what amount of land was bought and start to charge rent for that land.

You're trolling, right?

the keen edge · 04-05-2012 7:27am

Victor wrote: »

The land tends not to be paid for until it is needed and the price will depend on the crops.

Not true.

The land is paid for in most cases.
In the cases where it has not yet been paid for it is due to ongoing negotiations on price and t&c's; certainly not because it isn't yet needed.

And are you saying that the price for re-leasing for the land, (not that it would ever be even considered let only implemented), would depend on what crops are going to grown?

I'm baffled as to how anybody thinks this is feasible.

The only reason we are even discussing this issues is because the project has been delayed.
In hindsight the land acquisitions should only be were premature, although obviously they weren't planned to be so.

touts · 04-05-2012 7:30am

the keen edge wrote: »

You're trolling, right?

No. Seriously it might be small but this is the sort of "Arrah sure the taxpayer won't miss my few hundred" that all adds up to the country being screwed.

I'm picking on the M17/M18 farmers because they are the ones that were highlighted here but I'm sure we could list thousands and thousands of similar little issues that all add up to be a huge one. If I was trolling I would he highlighting the comment about them potentially claiming adverse possession (aka squatters rights).

Until we all address these small leaks in the system without someone being accused of trolling the country will never recover.

antoobrien · 04-05-2012 9:21am

Victor wrote: »

The land tends not to be paid for until it is needed and the price will depend on the crops.

touts wrote: »

Well if no money has yet changed hands then that is OK.

the keen edge wrote: »

The land is paid for in most cases.

I suggest the three of you go back and the thread a bit. There's been between €120m and €140m paid to the landowners along the route.

Rent is more than likely not an option as there'll probably be an agreement with most landowners for use of the land until it's fenced off.

Sponge Bob · 04-05-2012 9:27am

Dáil questions indicate that no money is available for PPP payments until 2017 which implies a Mid-Late 2014 start to me.

(scroll up)

http://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2012-05-01.380.0&s=kitt#g383.1

It must be recognised that the payment mechanism obliges the NRA to make availability payments to the PPP company, which gives rise to an ongoing financial commitment annually from 2017 to 2041.

touts · 04-05-2012 9:29am

antoobrien wrote: »

I suggest the three of you go back and the thread a bit. There's been between €120m and €140m paid to the landowners along the route.

Rent is more than likely not an option as there'll probably be an agreement with most landowners for use of the land until it's fenced off.

Well in that case some posts and barbwire should be purchased and we finally have something for the lads in the NRA office to do for the next 5 years apart from scratching themselves.

ki · 04-05-2012 9:43am

JupiterKid wrote: »

I wonder if archaeological digs and trenches along the route of the M18/M17 scheme have been carried out yet?

The one at top of Annagh Hill is dug out and fenced off. [Intersection with the N63] but, How complete is complete?
Also someone, NRA presumably, have taken core sample along the route also.

All this work was done last summer. Nothing recent.

antoobrien · 04-05-2012 10:04am

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Dáil questions indicate that no money is available for PPP payments until 2017 which implies a Mid-Late 2014 start to me.

(scroll up)

http://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2012-05-01.380.0&s=kitt#g383.1

I'm not sure I get the point of the post Sponge Bob - are you saying because we can't start paying it back until 2017 we can't build it until at least 2014 (assuming a 2.5 year build)?

Sponge Bob · 04-05-2012 11:10am

antoobrien wrote: »

I'm not sure I get the point of the post Sponge Bob - are you saying because we can't start paying it back until 2017 we can't build it until at least 2014 (assuming a 2.5 year build)?

It is not budgeted for until 2017!

antoobrien · 04-05-2012 11:35am

Sponge Bob wrote: »

It is not budgeted for until 2017!

I got the impression that PPP's weren't supposed to be budgeted up front, it was supposed to be after delivery.

Victor · 05-05-2012 6:17am

antoobrien wrote: »

I got the impression that PPP's weren't supposed to be budgeted up front, it was supposed to be after delivery.

While the contractor is unlikely to get paid until the road is open, the state will still incur costs.

spacetweek · 08-05-2012 2:49pm

antoobrien wrote: »

I'm pretty sure they didn't buy the land until later - more like 2009.
Edit - the cpo publication & oral hearing wasn't until 2006, so they couldn't have fenced it in 2004.

Sorry Anto, I thought we were talking about the M11. I know M17/18 isn't all fenced off.

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Dáil questions indicate that no money is available for PPP payments until 2017 which implies a Mid-Late 2014 start to me.

I don't find this very convincing. They could just make the road take 4 years to build.
Back in the day, DCs and Mways often took 5-7 years to build. But during the recent boom, they only took 2-3 years through the use of early-completion bonuses.
Seems to me you can make a road construction period as long or as short as you like.
Still on for 2013 as far as I'm concerned.

M17/M18 - Gort to Tuam [open to traffic]

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