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Upgrading graphics on a MicroATX

  • 21-02-2010 11:24pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 3,006 ✭✭✭


    Ok so I am looking to upgrade my graphics but I am on a MicroATX mobo/case. Currently I have a gainward 6600 running fine but was thinking of upgrading. I am confused as to what cards will fit as when I measured my current card, it's 7 inches in length, and I'd say another inch and it will be hitting my RAM slot, thus a card of that length would not fit

    1) I heard of low profile cards. I searched on these but can't find much. Are they smaller in size/length?

    2) The card I would like to get would be a 8600GT, which would suit me fine for the games I plan on playing. However I cannot found dimensions for said card anywhere

    I could appreciate if someone could elaborate on the details I am shady on, as I really need to upgrade ASAP. Any advice is greatly appreciated!


Comments

  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 17,129 Mod ✭✭✭✭cherryghost


    old/new motherboard (i.e is the GPU slot a PCIE or AGP?)


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 18,377 Mod ✭✭✭✭Solitaire


    What's the exact model number of your motherboard? Can't even think of a modern mobo that's been designed in such a retarded fashion the DIMM slots are blocking the AGP/PCIe! :eek:

    No point on getting an 8600GT in this day and age anyway. Even a ~€30 HD4650 would be better :P What's your monitor resolution?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,006 ✭✭✭Ramza


    My mobo I'm not too sure about, when I scanned my PC my mobo came back as unknown but my mobo chipset is "ATI Radeon Xpress 200" if that means anything

    The highest res I can get on my monitor is 1024x768

    And cherryghost it's pci-e

    I just want a decent card that fits :P >.<

    Edit : My mobo is MSI 09AC


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 17,129 Mod ✭✭✭✭cherryghost


    yeah having a look there. solitaires recommendation of a 4650 would be the best you can get in terms of value for money

    http://www.komplett.ie/k/ki.aspx?sku=575157

    theres a low profile version there. you'll notice a very nice increase in performance and less wattage usage


    A 5570 would be the best performance, price is a bit steep though. You'd be churning high settings on some new games with your resolution though.

    http://www.komplett.ie/k/ki.aspx?sku=582656

    its faster than the 4650 and you get the advantage of ddr3 in it too :)


    Review of that starting here, most of the charts also covers the 4650:
    http://www.guru3d.com/article/radeon-hd-5570-review/8
    Bear in mind your resolution is lower then the extreme left, so i wouldnt be surprised that you could churn an extra 10-20% worth of frames. depending on how much ram you have of course :P



    hope that helps


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 18,377 Mod ✭✭✭✭Solitaire


    Nice. From that I surmise you have an MSI RX480 Neo2. Maybe.

    I still can't see any way in which a card in the PCIex16 slot could interfere with the memory modules on that mobo... it could block the top two SATA headers though! Just use the bottom two! :P

    I'd recommend the HD5570 or HD5670 if you can source one cheaper. Neither needs much power nor any additional PCIe power connectors :) The HD4770 is much better value but its utter overkill from your point of view :o If you don't have the money you drop down as far as a cheapie HD4650 - not great but better than a 8600GT! :P


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,006 ✭✭✭Ramza


    Thanks for all the great answers lads!

    I know this sounds rude but I can't seem to find product dimensions on the sites, as I need a card that wil fit in my case etc. I was always under the impression that pretty much any PCI-E card will fit and work in any PCI-E slot? Even though my case is pretty big my current 6600 fits in with about a half inch to spare of room (I measured and it's 7 inches in length give or take)

    How do I know the recomended watts on the PSU needed to run a graphics card when looking at its specs?

    I'm only running a 250W PSU, so I think an upgrade is due there. Would any semi-decent card run on a 250W? Just wondering, but I have no issues with upgrading my PSU if necessary, just would be good if I could get a good card with no PSU upgrade

    Edit : The guy in this video has the EXACT same computer as me, so if it helps.



  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 17,129 Mod ✭✭✭✭cherryghost


    you should be ok on a 5570 if this is anything to go by :eek:


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 18,377 Mod ✭✭✭✭Solitaire


    Ramza wrote: »
    I know this sounds rude but I can't seem to find product dimensions on the sites, as I need a card that wil fit in my case etc. I was always under the impression that pretty much any PCI-E card will fit and work in any PCI-E slot? Even though my case is pretty big my current 6600 fits in with about a half inch to spare of room (I measured and it's 7 inches in length give or take)

    7" is nothing! And that case can harly be considered "big" if there's less than 8" effective width! :P Many mid-range gaming cards are 9-10" long! Enthusiast-grade monsters can be over a foot long! :eek::D

    Thankfully you don't exactly need a cutting-edge card on an old S939 build with a 1024*768 monitor. Even the HD5670 is only about 6-6.7" long depending on PCB layout :)
    How do I know the recomended watts on the PSU needed to run a graphics card when looking at its specs?

    You don't. Even when they do supply a TDP figure they seem to pull it out of a hat! :o
    I'm only running a 250W PSU, so I think an upgrade is due there. Would any semi-decent card run on a 250W? Just wondering, but I have no issues with upgrading my PSU if necessary, just would be good if I could get a good card with no PSU upgrade

    If you haven't melted the PSU with the 6600GT the HD5670 or similar won't give it a headache either. Its only when you head north of the HD5770 that things start to get really ugly on the power front.


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 18,377 Mod ✭✭✭✭Solitaire


    you should be ok on a 5570 if this is anything to go by :eek:

    *looks at Maximum chart* What the hell did they do to that HD4830?! Run it at 3GHz on LN2?!?! :eek:

    130W for a stock HD4830 is unbelievable. Mine has difficulty hitting ~70W OCd! :P


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,006 ✭✭✭Ramza


    Is that chart true? :s

    Judging by the HD 5670 it looks like the same size as my 6600.
    If you haven't melted the PSU with the 6600GT the HD5670 or similar won't give it a headache either. Its only when you head north of the HD5770 that things start to get really ugly on the power front.

    I'm running a 6600 but I doubt it makes a difference in relation to your post. So the HD5670 (http://www.pixmania.ie/ie/uk/4642692/art/sapphire-technology/radeon-hd-5670-512-mb-gdd.html) will pretty much be similar in size aswell as power consumption? Hmm

    Also what's PCI-E 2.0 all about? I have PCI-E is all I know xD

    Also, I take it the naming of ATI cards works that the higher the number the better it is? (logically one would think this). On the game I'm planning to run it says the recommended card was a ATI Radeon X1900. Would a HD5670 be better or?


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  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 17,129 Mod ✭✭✭✭cherryghost


    Ramza wrote: »
    Is that chart true? :s

    Judging by the HD 5670 it looks like the same size as my 6600.



    I'm running a 6600 but I doubt it makes a difference in relation to your post. So the HD5670 (http://www.pixmania.ie/ie/uk/4642692/art/sapphire-technology/radeon-hd-5670-512-mb-gdd.html) will pretty much be similar in size aswell as power consumption? Hmm

    Also what's PCI-E 2.0 all about? I have PCI-E is all I know xD

    Also, I take it the naming of ATI cards works that the higher the number the better it is? (logically one would think this). On the game I'm planning to run it says the recommended card was a ATI Radeon X1900. Would a HD5670 be better or?

    PCIE 2.0 has more bandwidth throughput, which in real terms you gain a max 5% performance gain over regular PCI-E.

    The 5670 is mind-shatteringly better than the x1900 :P

    Theres a chart of graphics cards here that'll generalise its performance from top to bottom (its a bit off, bear with it though).
    http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/best-gaming-graphics-card,2544-7.html

    And as Solitaire pointed out, your 6600GT is chugging away, so a 5670 SHOULD be ok :pac:


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,006 ✭✭✭Ramza


    PCIE 2.0 has more bandwidth throughput, which in real terms you gain a max 5% performance gain over regular PCI-E.

    Do I need a PCI-E 2.0 slot for that?

    Cool, thanks lads. Think I should go for maybe a HD 4870 or maybe something a little less than a 5670? I think the 5670 is too much for me, in terms of what I need. Looking for something on par with a nVidia 9/100 series, so judging by the chart a 4870 should be good?

    So a HD4870/5670 should run grand on my 250W PSU? I don't want anything to melt or blow up or anything :o


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 17,129 Mod ✭✭✭✭cherryghost


    Ramza wrote: »
    Do I need a PCI-E 2.0 slot for that?

    Cool, thanks lads. Think I should go for maybe a HD 4870 or maybe something a little less than a 5670? I think the 5670 is too much for me, in terms of what I need. Looking for something on par with a nVidia 9/100 series, so judging by the chart a 4870 should be good?

    So a HD4870/5670 should run grand on my 250W PSU? I don't want anything to melt or blow up or anything :o

    sorry no, the 2 versions are backwards compatible so all is good. :D

    the 4870 most definately WONT run with your PSU. that damn card is a power hog. I'm afraid the 5670 is your limit unless you want to consider upgrading your power supply.


    EDIT: Sorry, its very late, im gonna hit the hay! night! good luck with any decisions you make tonight :P


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,006 ✭✭✭Ramza


    sorry no, the 2 versions are backwards compatible so all is good. :D

    the 4870 most definately WONT run with your PSU. that damn card is a power hog. I'm afraid the 5670 is your limit unless you want to consider upgrading your power supply.


    EDIT: Sorry, its very late, im gonna hit the hay! night! good luck with any decisions you make tonight :P

    Ok. I thought the 5670 would be more of a hog than the 4870 and not vice versa, based on their model numbers?


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 17,129 Mod ✭✭✭✭cherryghost


    Ramza wrote: »
    Ok. I thought the 5670 would be more of a hog than the 4870 and not vice versa, based on their model numbers?

    its confusing, i know :o most of it is down to the companies reducing power usage to make them more green. the 5670 is also slightly slower than the 4870.

    ok bed! night! lol


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,006 ✭✭✭Ramza


    Just checked out the PSU requirement on a 5670 and it's 400 watts :o

    Or, like you said is it just totally random?


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 18,377 Mod ✭✭✭✭Solitaire


    Ramza wrote: »
    Ok. I thought the 5670 would be more of a hog than the 4870 and not vice versa, based on their model numbers?

    Ugh! Don't fall for that old chestnut :o Bigger != better!

    The first digit of a graphics card usually depicts generation. Newer generations are incrementally more powerful than predecessors, more feature-rich (e.g. DX11, HD decoding...) and more power-efficient relative to raw processing power (due to manufacturing process - we're currently on 40nm, 55nm was the last one, and yes, those are nanometres :D). So a HD5670 is newer and better than a HD4670.

    Second digit depicts family and to a degree usage. So a HD*2*0 is a basic GPU usually integrated in a mobo chipset, a HD*4*0 is oriented to multimedia and sucks at gaming, a HD*6*0 has a full multimedia featureset and is good at low-res gaming, a HD*7*0 is a mid-range card for general gaming and a HD*8*0 is a fairly high-end gaming GPU for high resolutions. Similar-ish system for 4-digit nVidia cards, the 3-digit ones out now mix it up a bit :rolleyes:

    Third digit represents tilt or position/hierachy within the family. For example a HD5850 is a badass gaming card. A HD5870 is an extremely badass gaming card and a HD5830 is still a fairly badass gaming card.

    So, overall a HD5670 is the current low-end gaming card. By comparison a HD4870 is the last generation's badass gaming card. Being older and less efficient and having twice the firpower under the hood relative to the little HD5670 can you even begin to guess at the difference in power consumption? :eek:

    And those PSU guidelines are there to protect those out there who a) have some insane OCd i7-975 rig with half a dozen HDDs from pushing their PSU a bridge too far or b) those loveable rogues who have no idea about PCs and have bought a replacement PSU from eBay for a tenner and think its a 500W PSU when in actual fact its an old P4 PSU that's not designed for crazy 12V loads and demanding more than 150W actual 12V power will cause the rig to melt :eek:

    I'm guessing you have the original PSU from the PC which are always "real" PSUs and are fairly solid to avoid giving users any excuse for demanding repairs/refund at any point during the extended warranty. I somehow doubt your Socket 939 rig is using buttloads of power and the HD5670 will realistically stay south of 30W for anything bar FurMark or its alter-ego, Crysis :P Off the top of my head a 6600GT uses ~40W and I've used one on decent OEM 240-250W PSUs that came with my old Athlon rigs back in the day so I'm pretty sure the HD5670 won't cause any crash-n-burn. Even if it did, the PC would simply shut down and restart if its not one of those junk PCs off eBay. And those always come with a "600W" (yeah, right!) PSU rather than an honest-to-God 250-300W FSP/Enhance/HiPro/Delta :rolleyes:

    For SnG look at this when you have a minute and see what the Delta does compared to the eBay fodder... :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,006 ✭✭✭Ramza


    Thanks, great info! So I'll try and lay it out now before I decide on a card

    - Basically I want a card which will run Street Fighter IV (which is a game which has been released about a year ago so it's fairly modern) on mid-high settings at a good resolution

    - My budget is somwhere around 50-60 (excluiding shipping)

    - Just want it to fit and not **** up my PSU etc but judging from the posts in this thread it wont happen

    I'm not into PC gaming and this is the only game I plan on running tbh. Although I plan on playing Devil May Cry 4, and maybe that new Heavy Rain game, if it comes to PC

    So a card that will run games like that on mid to high settings on a decent res


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 18,377 Mod ✭✭✭✭Solitaire


    Talk about demanding the moon! :eek: The only saving grace is that monitor technology has completely passed you by :P

    As for DMC4 and SF4 they're not exactly demanding - DMC4 is worse and a HD5770 can keep it at 72fps with 8xAA at 1080p so I don't see even a HD4670 or similar breaking a sweat at 1024*768 :P

    Oh, and you do know that Quantum Dicks (or whatever they're called) scrapped Heavy Rain for PC because "ur all made of fail u still use ATi which are for noobs!!1! well only make it 4 PS3 cos its nvidia so its win lulz". Or words to that effect. nVidia And Friends' quest to royally **** off every PC user continues apace... :mad:

    And to add insult to injury one of the links in Google was a rogue and tried to 'jack my PC :mad:


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,006 ✭✭✭Ramza


    Solitaire wrote: »
    Talk about demanding the moon! :eek: The only saving grace is that monitor technology has completely passed you by :P

    As for DMC4 and SF4 they're not exactly demanding - DMC4 is worse and a HD5770 can keep it at 72fps with 8xAA at 1080p so I don't see even a HD4670 or similar breaking a sweat at 1024*768 :P

    Oh, and you do know that Quantum Dicks (or whatever they're called) scrapped Heavy Rain for PC because "ur all made of fail u still use ATi which are for noobs!!1! well only make it 4 PS3 cos its nvidia so its win lulz". Or words to that effect. nVidia And Friends' quest to royally **** off every PC user continues apace... :mad:

    And to add insult to injury one of the links in Google was a rogue and tried to 'jack my PC :mad:

    Cool. Thanks for the info. Raging about that was looking forward to that game =[

    How would this do?

    http://www.pixmania.ie/ie/uk/3857024/art/sapphire-technology/radeon-hd-4650-512-mb-ddr.html

    Been looking at this too

    http://www.pixmania.ie/ie/uk/4642692/art/sapphire-technology/radeon-hd-5670-512-mb-gdd.html

    Oh and I plan to maybe upgrade my monitor in the future, if it's important. Sorry be to dragging this out but just want to make sure all is in order before I purchase


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  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 18,377 Mod ✭✭✭✭Solitaire


    The HD4650 should be grand for 1024*768, but I recommend the HD4670 or HD5670 if you're planning on a monitor upgrade. What resolution would you be gunning for? 1080p would pretty much end up being the catalyst that forced you into a new build from scratch :o


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,006 ✭✭✭Ramza


    I plan on upgrading my monitor in the future, but wouldn't know anything about them at all. I'm on a 17 inch atmoo maybe would like a nice 25 inch HD one? not like the highest 1080 but maybe 720? (if its possible, I know jack about high def so bear with me xD)


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 18,377 Mod ✭✭✭✭Solitaire


    720p = 1280*720, although most 720p+ panels are actually 1366*768. In either case the HD4670 can hold its own and the HD5670 will be grand, but the limited DDR2 memory on the HD4650 will give it issues at times. The HD4770 will also start to make more sense. Past 17" only cheaper HDTVs are this size anymore.

    Most cheap 19" monitors are 1280*1024 or 1440*900 (widescreen). A HD4670 will start to struggle a bit in more demanding games. A HD5670 will be fine most of the time and the HD4770 starts to hit its stride; even a HD5750 isn't considered too overpowered at this point so long as you're looking at intense gaming with titles like Crysis and ArmA2.

    Pricier 19" and cheapo 20-22" monitors are typically 1680*1050 (widescreen) or the slightly more demanding 1600*1200. The HD4670 is now under serious pressure, the HD5670 is starting to show the strain and the HD4770 is starting to top out; the HD5750 (and old HD4850/HD4870/GTS250/GTX260) is now in its element. So long as you avoid titles like Crysis even the HD5670 can still shine.

    Pricier 22" units and a few cheapo 24"ers run at the infamous Full HD: 1920*1080 or 1200 (depending on 16:9 or 16:10 aspect ratio). Called 1080p by media enthusiasts, graphics cards really start to come under fire from here on up. The HD5670 starts to unravel fast, the HD4770 is only good for less stressful titles (i.e. not Crysis!) and 512MB cards start to have issues as you need a bigger framebuffer and higher memory bandwidth to run smoothly at this resolution. The 1GB versions of the HD4870/5770 and (preferably mildly OCd) HD5750 and GTX260+ are now in their prime, and for some high-maintenance games the GTX275, HD4890 and even the HD5850 start to make sense.

    Better 24" and most 26-30" models are 2560*1600. They're also staggeringly expensive. If you have the money for one you'll have the money for a kick-ass gaming rig too. If you intend on running 3D application you'll need one - the usual HD4870 and HD5770 are relegated to less intensive settings. Even the HD4890 and GTX275 start to come under pressure up here; here the GTX285 and HD5850/5870 are king.

    As for HDTVs? Let max resolution, not the number of inches, be your guide; bear in mind that most models are 720p but anything that has 1080p on is going to require hefty enough GPU muscle regardless of price. You may be able to get more screen for your money but as they're designed to be tellies they can cause eye-strain if you intend on browsing the web's teeny writing on them :o


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,006 ✭✭✭Ramza


    Think I'm going to go with the HD4670 but for a tenner more I can get the HD5670 so I think it would be more sensible to go for the 5670 as I do plan on a monitor upgrade and until then the 5670 should be fine

    Also is pixmania the best place to go for shipping etc. Know any places in Dublin I could pick one up handy? I know of Maplin but haven't been there in a while, wouldn't mind picking it up in person to save on shipping


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 18,377 Mod ✭✭✭✭Solitaire


    Maplin are horrendously expensive. Peats are a bit variable, but can be cheap enough sometimes; I just don't see any sign of any HD5670s for sale there at the moment :( Pix are cheap for shipping some items and not so cheap for others, they now have a cheapie fortnight rate but that's a pretty long time to wait! :o And IIRC Komplett now have free shipping so long as you can make it as far as the pickup in Blanchardstown and collect your shipment yourself :) ...but they're expensive for graphics cards right now.

    If its free to collect it might still be cheaper to cough up the €77.50-odd Komplett demand for a HD5670 if you know you're picking up a 720p HDTV or low-res monitor. If not I'd suggest getting the cheapest HD4650 you can find and waiting until you can upgrade to a better card, PSU and CPU (probably whole build really :() before you upgrade to a 1080p jobbie; a HD5670 doesn't really have the grunt to push 3D on one of those :(


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,006 ✭✭✭Ramza


    Well I only plan on geting a 720P so say 19 or 20". So a HD5670 should be good. I was made clear it would work on a 250W(yeah?) on my current rig so I think I should go for that.


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