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HAYE CHISORA BRAWL

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    That's about as extreme an outcome as you could have come up with, don't throw the first punch or you'll kill him.

    By your skewed logic you could say by throwing the first punch he potentially could have saved his own life, because if he left the first punch to an animal like Chisora god knows what he may have done!

    he's not saying the 1st punch=kill is the point, he's saying that legally you will be the 1 in trouble if you throw the 1st punch.

    Legally Haye should have walked away, been the 1st to strike makes him the attacker.

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



  • Registered Users Posts: 54,495 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    cowzerp wrote: »
    he's not saying the 1st punch=kill is the point, he's saying that legally you will be the 1 in trouble if you throw the 1st punch.

    Legally Haye should have walked away, been the 1st to strike makes him the attacker.

    But, one must look at the circumstances, the threats etc, Chisora' body language. Removing his robe, was it, walking towards Haye, and then make a call. I think self defence is a possibility here. Bowe whacking Larry Donald is a case of Bowe being the attacker. No real sefl defence case there.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    walshb wrote: »
    But, one must look at the circumstances, the threats etc, Chisora' body language. Removing his robe, was it, walking towards Haye. and then make a call. I think self defence is a possibility here. Bowe whacking Larry Donald is a case of Bowe being the attacker. No real sefl defence case there.

    Not legally-Haye had chance to get out of situation and chose not too, then he hit 1st blow, sentencing might be more leniant but the law is not on his side.

    He was the attacker legally, its not about opinion here-if its opinion i agree with you but the law is rigid and not flexible.

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



  • Registered Users Posts: 54,495 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    cowzerp wrote: »
    Not legally-Haye had chance to get out of situation and chose not too, then he hit 1st blow, sentencing might be more leniant but the law is not on his side.

    He was the attacker legally, its not about opinion here-if its opinion i agree with you but the law is rigid and not flexible.

    I don't know the legal stance, but I don't think a person must first attempt to flee, and only then can he/she claim self defence.

    The law is far from rigid. It's an ass, that is the problem with it. Defence teams can put up any half ass argument, and at times, it's accepted.

    If I was judging on this I would not convict Haye for assault.

    The Bowe incident. I would convict.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    when it comes to self defense its fairly simple, if you have the chance to flea and don't take it then that goes against you, if you throw 1st blow your the attacker, this would be different if they entered your house etc

    Chisora probably would have slapped him but he did say he was coming down to talk to him-Haye while in reality was probably defending himself, he was not really within the law.

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,986 ✭✭✭Spazdarn


    cowzerp wrote: »
    Not legally-Haye had chance to get out of situation and chose not too, then he hit 1st blow, sentencing might be more leniant but the law is not on his side.

    He was the attacker legally, its not about opinion here-if its opinion i agree with you but the law is rigid and not flexible.

    Chisora did previously say they'd settle this in London and that he would go down and kick his ass... so I wouldn't really expect talking if he came at me like that.

    If you look at the pictures Chisora's fist was raised to his face first before Haye's punch occurred, so that could be used as more than enough to plead self defence.

    haye-chisora-brawl%20(4).jpg


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,405 ✭✭✭weemcd


    Apologies if this has been posted already:


    Haye and Vitali seem like great bud's at the end of this.

    Do not be surprised if you see them in the ring this summer, $$ cash rules everything


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,683 ✭✭✭plasmaguy


    If Haye punched him without holding a bottle, fair enough, although still stupid thing to do either way.

    Throwing the tripod was childish.

    Both of them got owned by the Klitchkos anyways. Good riddance to both.

    As for Haye v Vitali, I'd pay not to see it. Both just looking for a paycheck, and Haye would be out of his depth. Second rate HW imo.

    We need a new Tyson or Ali.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,727 ✭✭✭ebbsy


    I think the spitting incident in the ring by Chisora needs to be dealt with more than anything else - thats not cool.

    I have a sneaking feeling he might get a lengthy ban, a lot longer than some people might think.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,325 ✭✭✭Bandana boy


    http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/heavyweights-in-name-only-3031920.html

    Interesting article in the rag that is the indo ,which sums up the boxing game today pretty well


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭gene_tunney


    http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/heavyweights-in-name-only-3031920.html

    Interesting article in the rag that is the indo ,which sums up the boxing game today pretty well

    That was a terrible article, written by an ill-informed sensationalist.


  • Registered Users Posts: 54,495 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Care to point out where he is ill informed? His views are held by many many fans and historians.

    I read the article and he makes very valid points. One is Haye being a HW champ. That does go to show that the HW scene is in a bad way. He was comparing this to eras gone by where Haye wouldn't have got a look in.

    "Wladimir's next opponent is Jean Marc Mormeck, a 5ft 11ins 39-year-old who was knocked out by Haye at Cruiserweight five years ago and has fought three times since. Who he?

    Who cares?"


    I mean the quote above says it all. How is this, for example, ill informed or sensationalist?


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,551 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    walshb wrote: »
    No, I never said I thought this. I said Haye would most likely have got slated.

    Haye in this situation had no real option but to stay. Now, Chisora approached him aggressively, and Haye acted.
    Security should never have allowed Chisora to get that close, so really it was security who let Haye down here and forced Haye to act.
    run!


    I think he'd have gotten over being slated by a minority. Most people would have praised him for trying to avoid conflict.

    I agree security were at fault for allowing them coming together. Although RTL share some blame as they encouraged Haye to attend the press conference.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,551 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    That's about as extreme an outcome as you could have come up with, don't throw the first punch or you'll kill him.

    By your skewed logic you could say by throwing the first punch he potentially could have saved his own life, because if he left the first punch to an animal like Chisora god knows what he may have done!

    It's not skewed logic in the eyes of the law, though.
    Throwing the first punch, while he had a bottle in his hand, is unlikely to convince a jury he was merely acting in self defense. Coupled with the fact he also threw a tripod at someone while they were being held, then it is very unlikely a plead of self defense would be successful.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,986 ✭✭✭Spazdarn


    It's not skewed logic in the eyes of the law, though.
    Throwing the first punch, while he had a bottle in your hand, is unlikely to convince a jury he was merely acting in self defense. Coupled with the fact he also threw a tripod at someone while they were being held, then it is very unlikely a plead of self defense would be successful.

    Yes but like the image I posted, it was Chisora who raised his fist to him first...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 956 ✭✭✭RiseToTheTop




  • Registered Users Posts: 16,551 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    Yes but like the image I posted, it was Chisora who raised his fist to him first...

    The image would likely be viewed as irrelevant, as speculating on what Chisora might have done won't work.
    Haye threw the first punch, therefore in the eyes of the law he is deemed the aggressor. So as I said a self- defense verdict is unlikely to prove successful in court.


  • Registered Users Posts: 54,495 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    The image would likely be viewed as irrelevant, as speculating on what Chisora might have done won't work.
    Haye threw the first punch, therefore in the eyes of the law he is deemed the aggressor. So as I said a self- defense verdict is unlikely to prove successful in court.

    May or may not be successful in court, as the law is an ass at times, but really, I don't blame Haye for striking first when one takes into account all that went on, and who it was that was approaching him.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,551 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    walshb wrote: »
    May or may not be successful in court, as the law is an ass at times, but really, I don't blame Haye for striking first when one takes into account all that went on, and who it was that was approaching him.

    Well he could have tried to flee.... yes, it maybe seen as wussy behaviour by some, but he's have been widely praised by many for taking that course of action and in the process avoiding bad headlines for boxing. If there is no other option, then I could well understand striking first given Chisora's past actions. However, in a court case he would be seen as the aggressor given what transpired and the fact he made no attempt to flee. Although the court maybe more lenient given Chisora's previous history.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,986 ✭✭✭Spazdarn


    In our ****ty legal system a raised fist against your face would definitely get you off I'd say.

    If it went to court, the video coverage, Chisora getting up out of his chair to come down to him, the taunts and threats, Chisora's actions that weekend regarding Wlad and Vitali and his history of violence and trouble with the police before...would surely be brought up, paints a fairly bad character reference.

    Not a hope Haye would get done for it. Well not a hope may be too fool hardy but I'd be very surprised if Haye received any punishment. Chisora would have to bring forth the charges and imagine he'd have had enough on his plate.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,795 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    All the fuss & yet Chisora returned to Germany & was at the fight on Saturday - no one seemed concerned.

    http://www.supersport.com/boxing/international/news/120225/British_brawler_back_in_Germany


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 25,953 ✭✭✭✭kryogen


    Can't believe there is any argument here, if it went to court the evidence shows Haye striking first, thats it, end of story, you are allowed to go toward someone. The video doesn't show Chisora threatening Haye when face to face, the video can not be used to exonerate David. The previous incidents with the Klitschko's would have no bearing on it.

    They are both muppets, but to suggest anything other then Haye being (from a legal standpoint) the one who initiated the conflict is foolish.

    The law is clear on this. You can confront someone verbally, no issue, once you raise your hands you are getting into assault territory, to do it with a bottle in your hand, is even more ridiculous as you run the risk of battery added to it or worse.

    Chisora legally did nothing to warrant getting punched. It was an attack from Haye, for him to prove he felt like he was in danger would be difficult from the video evidence. It is inconclusive at best. Chisora does not hit him. He does not make a motion to hit him, he goes down with the mic in his hand, this is not the actions of a guy going to hit someone, it is the actions of someone who wants to get some publicity.

    He is well in his rights to stand in front of Haye and speak to him, Haye is not well within his rights to hit him, unless he can prove that his life/person was in immediate danger.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,907 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    Two muppets is right, at the very least they should be banned from fighting eachother, just to save us from the sky "grudge match" bullsh1t that would inevitably follow...Cringefest. Seriously .... the future is bleak for heavyweights, pure showbiz....


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    the future is bleak for heavyweights, pure showbiz....

    Probably the 1st time in years anyone has called the Heavyweight division showbiz!

    In reality this is 2 lads who are British level Heavyweights and used their mouths to get publicity-has little bearing on the Heavyweight division unless Haye gets a shot at Vitali-I for 1 would not be pushed to see it at all, would rather see Vitali v Povetkin, Dimitrenko, Helenius, Boytsov or else Areola or Adamek in that order of availability if there was lads not available

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,986 ✭✭✭Spazdarn


    kryogen wrote: »
    Can't believe there is any argument here, if it went to court the evidence shows Haye striking first, thats it, end of story, you are allowed to go toward someone. The video doesn't show Chisora threatening Haye when face to face, the video can not be used to exonerate David. The previous incidents with the Klitschko's would have no bearing on it.

    They are both muppets, but to suggest anything other then Haye being (from a legal standpoint) the one who initiated the conflict is foolish.

    The law is clear on this. You can confront someone verbally, no issue, once you raise your hands you are getting into assault territory, to do it with a bottle in your hand, is even more ridiculous as you run the risk of battery added to it or worse.

    Chisora legally did nothing to warrant getting punched. It was an attack from Haye, for him to prove he felt like he was in danger would be difficult from the video evidence. It is inconclusive at best. Chisora does not hit him. He does not make a motion to hit him, he goes down with the mic in his hand, this is not the actions of a guy going to hit someone, it is the actions of someone who wants to get some publicity.

    He is well in his rights to stand in front of Haye and speak to him, Haye is not well within his rights to hit him, unless he can prove that his life/person was in immediate danger.

    http://www.boxingscene.com/uploads/49755/haye-chisora-brawl%20(4).jpg

    Assault is defined by (in UK) "an assault is committed where the defendant intentionally or recklessly causes the victim to apprehend immediate unlawful personal violence."

    Chisora putting his fist to his neck is more than enough to assume immediate violence. I don't believe that it's an indicative of violence but in court it could definitely be used as a solid defence.

    Self defence: "The use of reasonable force to protect oneself or members of the family from bodily harm from the attack of an aggressor, if the defender has reason to believe he/she/they is/are in danger. "

    Considering all the elements of the weekend, Chisora's character, antics with Wlad, history, being threatened, Chisora taking off his jacket to "talk to him", bringing his trainer along with him.... all of which would be mentioned in court, it would not be difficult to paint a picture where Haye was in fear of danger.

    Haye would get done for battery more so than assault if he did get done for something. I doubt he would though.

    I don't see how anyone could think this cut and dry, because it's not.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 25,953 ✭✭✭✭kryogen


    Why did you bother giving the UK definition though? I was under the impression it happened outside the UK


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 956 ✭✭✭RiseToTheTop


    How come Tyson never got a sentence for biting off a piece off Holyfield's ear so?

    I know it was during the fight, unlike Haye-Chisora, but that was outrageous and well outside the realms of boxing. The same when he tried to break Botha's arm.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 25,953 ✭✭✭✭kryogen


    How come Tyson never got a sentence for biting off a piece off Holyfield's ear so?

    I know it was during the fight, unlike Haye-Chisora, but that was outrageous and well outside the realms of boxing. The same when he tried to break Botha's arm.


    You would have to work that out for yourself, probably something along the same lines as why there will be no "sentence" for Haye or Chisora here.


  • Registered Users Posts: 54,495 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    kryogen wrote: »
    Can't believe there is any argument here, if it went to court the evidence shows Haye striking first, thats it, end of story, you are allowed to go toward someone. The video doesn't show Chisora threatening Haye when face to face, the video can not be used to exonerate David. The previous incidents with the Klitschko's would have no bearing on it.

    They are both muppets, but to suggest anything other then Haye being (from a legal standpoint) the one who initiated the conflict is foolish.

    The law is clear on this. You can confront someone verbally, no issue, once you raise your hands you are getting into assault territory, to do it with a bottle in your hand, is even more ridiculous as you run the risk of battery added to it or worse.

    Chisora legally did nothing to warrant getting punched. It was an attack from Haye, for him to prove he felt like he was in danger would be difficult from the video evidence. It is inconclusive at best. Chisora does not hit him. He does not make a motion to hit him, he goes down with the mic in his hand, this is not the actions of a guy going to hit someone, it is the actions of someone who wants to get some publicity.

    He is well in his rights to stand in front of Haye and speak to him, Haye is not well within his rights to hit him, unless he can prove that his life/person was in immediate danger.

    I'm glad you have such faith in the law and believe it to be so black and white. Didn't Chisora threaten to walk down and hit Haye two slaps? No? Are you seriously saying Haye would have no chance at all to get a self defence claim approved by a jury based on the whole event?

    If someone makes a physical threat aginst you in a verbal manner and then aprroaches you directly after making this verbal threat, is it not at all reasonable for you to claim that the person was approaching you to carry out this threat? That not at all a possibility in this "black and white" law we have?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 25,953 ✭✭✭✭kryogen


    Faith in the law?

    I have very little faith in the law actually.

    I'm sorry, I really have no interest in prolonged debate on this, its completely irrelevant. Nothing is going to happen to either of them from a legal point of view so whats the point?

    You can take things up any way you like, but I don't have to give credence to your interpretations.


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