DAB in Ireland: RTE multiplex closed

fm_radio · 10-02-2008 3:31pm

Listening on the FM band this morning from near Cork City, I noticed that TODAY FM was coming in 105.5 MHz from Clermont Carn (~280 kms). So, I had a listen around 220 MHz for some DAB signals listening on AM on a scanner and using a vertical dipole for 88-108 MHz :rolleyes:.
I could hear 3 distinct parts of the band where the noise/hiss increased.
They were...
223.170-224.700 MHz
224.900-226.400 MHz
226.600-228.100 MHz

Each signal was 1.5 MHz wide and had a sharp 'cut-off' at the band edges.
Working out the centre frequency of each signal, I got 223.920, 225.650 and 227.350 MHz which seem remarkably close to the MUX channels 12A (223.936 MHz), 12B (225.648 MHz) and 12C (227.360 MHz).

Could someone with a scanner near Dublin tell me what the DAB signals sound like on AM? I tried FM (NFM & WFM) but could hear nothing.

White Horse · 11-02-2008 2:10pm

I see that Capital Radio are closing two of their DAB stations (Planet Rock and theJazz), selling their stake in the Digial One multiplex, and would like to stop broadcasting on DAB completely.

A spokesman said: DAB take-up is incredibly slow - consumers are voting with their feet.Only 9pc of consumers have switched to DAB radio, and within that figure just 4pc listen to DAB only. FM is the backbone of radio, it's good quality for the consumer and we won't be lobbying to switch if off.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2008/02/11/bcngcap.xml

DMC · 11-02-2008 5:00pm

GCap are in the same position EMAP were in last year, but they are selling everything and focusing on FM. Very short term strategy for short term gain.

Foggy43 · 11-02-2008 10:30pm

Yes! DAB does not appear to have taken off.

I listened to it on Saturday for the first time this year. I have gone back to FM a while now. I had to have an external aerial for the BBC's. Using the same Band 111 aerial on FM and I noticed FM quality to be superior.

One must admit that the BBC muxes are carrying too many stations.

Radio|Man · 11-02-2008 10:39pm

DMC wrote: »

GCap are in the same position EMAP were in last year, but they are selling everything and focusing on FM. Very short term strategy for short term gain.

Agreed. GCAP are the same people edging their bets on internet radio as the future.

No matter what the argument, national wifi coverage is a long way off, they seem to be forgetting that. If they think that dab is competitive, have any of these boardrooms actually listened to internet radio, and what exactly is it they think they might be able to add to an already cluttered medium, that will make them stand out amongst the crowd?

Commercial radio needs a major re-think me thinks ! People want more than is currently on offer.

Yes, I admire GCAP for the bravery of putting Planet Rock and jazz on air, but it is hardly new radio. It was radio aimed at the initial leading audience for dab, old men, with beards and a fully paid mortgage. !!

Dab is tesco territory now !

I can't help but think that GCAP were expecting a faster return on their investment.

DAB take off slow? 750,000 radios sold in December 2007 !

Too much too soon is perhaps the answer to GCAPs woes.

Radio|Man · 11-02-2008 10:51pm

Foggy43 wrote: »

Yes! DAB does not appear to have taken off.

I listened to it on Saturday for the first time this year. I have gone back to FM a while now. I had to have an external aerial for the BBC's. Using the same Band 111 aerial on FM and I noticed FM quality to be superior.

One must admit that the BBC muxes are carrying too many stations.

Consumers couldn't care less for quality of audio. Its been proven time and time again in market research.

If you want to hear good audio quality, I'm afraid you are going to have to do what generations of audiophiles have done, and that is cater for yourself. That is, after all, what makes it so special

Convenience will always win when it comes to mass distribution of audio and TV.

One must also learn to disassociate ones self from this argument. An "anoraks" ideals, are far from the reality. I'd be all for raising the flag on board Caroline and setting sail again, but global warming has made the seas too rough, and besides, its 2008 ! Lets move on !

Dab has gained serious ground, further than any other potential successor to fm. Show me an alternative and a territory implementing it successfully?

marclt · 11-02-2008 11:41pm

DMC wrote: »

GCap are in the same position EMAP were in last year, but they are selling everything and focusing on FM. Very short term strategy for short term gain.

True but they need to deliver a return for the shareholders. Gcap are probably looking at the downturn of DAB across Europe... they jumped in at the start and now cold feet has settled in.

Obviously they still have their commitment for the local dab licences but running the national one is probably not cost effective for them.

Talk sport and Virgin aren't going to pull out... their MW coverage is awful. Digital One hasn't got a great line up now... BFBS replacing Core and the bird channel replacing one word... what on earth is going to take the place of theJAZZ and Planet Rock???

marclt · 11-02-2008 11:49pm

Radio|Man wrote: »

Commercial radio needs a major re-think me thinks ! People want more than is currently on offer.

Yes, I admire GCAP for the bravery of putting Planet Rock and jazz on air, but it is hardly new radio. It was radio aimed at the initial leading audience for dab, old men, with beards and a fully paid mortgage. !!

Do people want more choice? The trouble is commercial radio will never deliver more choice. UK local stations are sticking to the 80s/90s/today format - its safe and keeps the money coming in.

The radio market in the UK is fragmenting, advertising revenue is in decline. The big boys are cutting back and focussing on local stations where they can churn out the same music and slightly different speech elements to fill the gaps.

This hasn't happened in the Irish market yet... but give it time.

NO matter who the audience was for theJAZZ or Planet Rock they are what is termed niche market stations... 500,000 listeners sounds good -but compare that to the BBC stations... Gcap just weren't able to make enough money out of it.

OFCOM must be extremely concerned by this course of action...

DMC · 12-02-2008 12:08am

marclt wrote: »

True but they need to deliver a return for the shareholders.

Yes, the beancounters need to balance the books. These are the same type of idiots who ran ITV in the early part of this decade. And look what happened there. This is what happens when you let accountants run a media company.

There is a whole lot of whinging going on in commercial radio in the UK. GWR and Capital Radio Group were allowed to merge, yet the whining continues. Get the product right and be inventive, and not run it as a cash cow, milking it dry.

With the state of Digital 1's content, I think Ofcom have grounds to revoke.

Radio|Man · 12-02-2008 11:05am

marclt wrote: »

Do people want more choice? The trouble is commercial radio will never deliver more choice. UK local stations are sticking to the 80s/90s/today format - its safe and keeps the money coming in.

The radio market in the UK is fragmenting, advertising revenue is in decline. The big boys are cutting back and focussing on local stations where they can churn out the same music and slightly different speech elements to fill the gaps.

This hasn't happened in the Irish market yet... but give it time.

NO matter who the audience was for theJAZZ or Planet Rock they are what is termed niche market stations... 500,000 listeners sounds good -but compare that to the BBC stations... Gcap just weren't able to make enough money out of it.

OFCOM must be extremely concerned by this course of action...

That's the fine mess commercial radio has got itself into. I agree with you totally.

Its no longer about feeding an audience of 100,000, its about feeding ten audiences of 10,000.

I cannot listen to commercial radio anymore. Dab in Dublin offers me the option of music with no ads, talk with no ads and a small number of alternatives.I would rather see the regional contribution to the dab muxs being something like what happened when everyone attempted a web station in the early 2000s. That was the last time commercial radio was creative.

I've had enough of bull**** that was this is, coming up later, I am hilarious type links padded with the same crap music over and over. Its been said a million times before. Every commercial operator knows that they are just a slight moderation on the next, but not one of them has the balls to make a break and do something different, Maybe they are just too busy voting for themselves in the meteors but realistically, I'm guessing there is hardly an ounce of creativity between them all.

A Monday morning rant on a Tuesday !

marclt · 12-02-2008 11:42am

DMC wrote: »

With the state of Digital 1's content, I think Ofcom have grounds to revoke.

Hmm, whilst it is probably true, I don't think ofcom would - it would mean paying back money!!!

You're right about the beancounting... unfortunately the ITV situation went tlts up because they had invested heavily in programming (ie the football)... radio doesn't ever part with that much cash.. The average UK (local) station has maybe 3/4 full time presenters, most of which do 6/7 shows a week. Maybe a newsteam of 2 or 2 and a half and then the rest are sales and admin. The product isn't well funded.. and I have this argument about who are more important - the presenters or the sales hounds. (we'll keep that one for another day!

)

GCap just wanted rid of these stations, a. to cut costs and b. to make a statement about their current position - its not just about DAB, they are selling FM services also.

This does of course put the future of DAB in the balance. It isn't a failed exercise in the UK... and people are finally picking up on the technology... but then I'm guessing that most people aren't buying a dab radio because its a dab radio, they are just replacing old stuff....

watty · 12-02-2008 3:51pm

Maybe DAB is only for Anoraks. I have a good Anorak and I find the arguements for DAB in Ireland less than Compelling.

We have now had at least two European countries Axe it.

more on GCap here:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/02/12/gcap_cans_dab/

Radio|Man · 12-02-2008 4:19pm

watty wrote: »

Maybe DAB is only for Anoraks. I have a good Anorak and I find the arguements for DAB in Ireland less than Compelling.

We have now had at least two European countries Axe it.

more on GCap here:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/02/12/gcap_cans_dab/

Okay, so the alternatives are .......???????

What happens in Europe is irelevant to what happens here. We are been driven by what happens in the UK with regard to digital TV and radio.

Again I state, almost 8 million dab sets sold in the UK, 750,000 of them sold in December last year. Some of Europe may be switching off but I lay my bet with Europe switching back on again at some stage.

There is no alternative, dab makes the most sense both technically and financially.

Early adopters were in fact too early perhaps! It is quite clear that dab has made serious headway in the last year.

White Horse · 12-02-2008 5:08pm

Radio|Man wrote: »

Okay, so the alternatives are .......???????

What happens in Europe is irelevant to what happens here. We are been driven by what happens in the UK with regard to digital TV and radio.

Again I state, almost 8 million dab sets sold in the UK, 750,000 of them sold in December last year. Some of Europe may be switching off but I lay my bet with Europe switching back on again at some stage.

There is no alternative, dab makes the most sense both technically and financially.

Early adopters were in fact too early perhaps! It is quite clear that dab has made serious headway in the last year.

I have been an enthusiastic supporter of DAB since they started transmitting from Belfast. The additional services from the BBC, particularly 5 live, BBC 7, were a great addition. Also, the EPG facility that allows easy recording of programmes is great.

However, the Irish service offers little new. The additional stations are simple wall-to-wall "ipod shuffle" ones that I will never listen to. There is no additional content worth talking about.

Furthermore, the audio quality of the Irish DAB stations is dreadful compared to their FM counterparts.

There is no point of buying a DAB in Ireland unless you can receive the BBC mux.

watty · 12-02-2008 5:40pm

DVB-h makes more sense for Mobile Digital Radio now.
Also without a BBC mux and very portable (DVB-h is with low battery consumption, and DAB is not), without the lower battery consumption and better quality of DVB-h audio only, you are better with Satellite. Better choice and Better quality and all the BBC.

You can get phones with DVB-h and/or FM-VHF. Not with DAB.
DAB is obsolete technology and Digital Radio was implemented too early.

we are NOT any longer part oF Sterling Area or UK. We are more Eurpean than the British. Europe is not irrelevant. Europe if it does Digital Mobile Radio at all will use space on the DVB-h system.

Radio|Man · 12-02-2008 9:34pm

watty wrote: »

DVB-h makes more sense for Mobile Digital Radio now.
Also without a BBC mux and very portable (DVB-h is with low battery consumption, and DAB is not), without the lower battery consumption and better quality of DVB-h audio only, you are better with Satellite. Better choice and Better quality and all the BBC.

You can get phones with DVB-h and/or FM-VHF. Not with DAB.
DAB is obsolete technology and Digital Radio was implemented too early.

we are NOT any longer part oF Sterling Area or UK. We are more Eurpean than the British. Europe is not irrelevant. Europe if it does Digital Mobile Radio at all will use space on the DVB-h system.

Again , I ask you to inform me of the format that has gained even half the ground that dab has, with the same portability. iPod now has a dab add on, battery consumption is getting better as is the hardware responsible for compression and transmission. Dab is by no means perfect, yet, but it is certainly the front runner for digital transmission.

Do you think that radio will be the only form of media using analog in the future?

At some stage, a decision has to be made to progress with this argument. Ireland is still only at trial stages with dab, there has been no official launch of any dab services and as a result, you can't expect there to be extensive programming on any of the digital only channels. Perhaps when/if dab is officially launched here, we will see an escalation of programming on dab but until then, music with no news or ads will do me.

watty wrote: »

We are NOT any longer part oF Sterling Area or UK.

Maybe so, but why then are we arguing over the closure of MW in this day and age ? Like it or not, if we were not part of a sterling area we would be totally within our rights to broadcast to the North. I understand what you are saying but most domestic goods are now sold through Tesco, Argos,Dixons, Currys, PC World etc. These chains are seeing dab sell in the UK and from a product point of view, dab radios are selling well. All they need do is stock them on Irish shelves and already units are selling here, in fact, most of the places I went to were SOLD OUT over Christmas. Marks and Spencers Dundrum even had dab radios for sale!

Dvb-H had been on trial here also with little or no interest in the technology by the test group. O2 are scrapping the trial with a view to looking at whatever else may be available through the Nokia endeavour to broadcast TV to mobiles. But the point you miss here is that there is no chance of an amalgamation between a Dvb-H network and a kitchen/household radio. Whatever the future format is, it has to be universal.

Dab is certainly NOT obsolete technology. 19.5% of the adult population in the UK now live in a dab household. Sales have passed the five million mark. That's 5000,000 !

Yes I admit that perhaps we should be waiting for dab+, but it makes no difference. All dab+ will offer is better quality, something dab is somewhat short of if a quantity of stations are to exist on a mux. Most dab receivers now on sale are either upgradable or will be backwards compatible.

Get off the fence and walk around a while, all that sitting has made your blood fall to your toes !

watty · 13-02-2008 11:00am

The DVB-h was a closed TV trial. Also O2 was looking at the wrong things. DVB-h is more interesting for Radio, though is not bad even on a 10" kitchen or Bedside TV (I've seen such a thing, not to be confused with the 7" and 10" portable DVB-t LCD TVs).

DVB-h and DRM can use the better than MP3, ACC codec. DAB is using MP2 codec. Fine at 256k Stereo. Rubbish at the typically used 128k. I use 256K MP3 on my phone media player.

DAB is only a set from FM-VHF in terms of choice. DAB sets only selling because they are on shelf. More products are being bought online. Hence Virgin selling their record stores and Dixions closed in UK.

Worldwide the future of Digital Radio is not DAB. Worldspace is starting new services for Europe, UK and Ireland too. Eutelsat and Astra are testing portable/Mobile/car radio services.

DAB was launched too soon. In UK it has too many channels, reducing quality. In Ireland it has too few and no compelling reason to change.

DAB radios are selling for same reason as Vista. Because they are there. Recently in all walks the UK has lost the Plot. I'd rather take notice of what Germany, Scandinavia, Italy are doing.

DVB-h texas chip set is lower power and cheaper than DAB will ever be and can cheaply be put in anything. The receiver is only on for 1/10th of the time as the OFDM transmission uses timeslots. One timeslot can have maybe 10 to 20 radio stations. That's 1/10th of one MUX! The texas chip is used in Italian receivers, mostly Mobile phones made by LG, Nokia and possibly ZTE (They do have 3g/DVB-h handset). I think due to tiny world wide adoption of DAB and very widespread DRM adoption (SW,MW and LW but still a couple of years away consumer wise) and wide adoption of DVB-h outside USA. there will be little chip development going forward on DAB. The system does not lend itself to kind of very low power consumption (weeks on lithium or 4 x AA Alkaline NOW!) that DVB-h is designed for.

RTÉ Pulse: Dave · 13-02-2008 5:37pm

Just did a re-scan. Theres a new DAB service called RTE xxxxx carrying dance music and the DLS is reading 'music for the millenium generation' Hmmmmmmmm where have I heard that before eh?

Ill throw my hat in the ring and hazard that RTE are adding a dance service to the MUX?

White Horse · 13-02-2008 5:40pm

DPC wrote: »

Just did a re-scan. Theres a new DAB service called RTE xxxxx carrying a dance music loop and the DLS is reading 'music for the millenium generation' Hmmmmmmmm where have I heard that before eh?

Ill throw my hat in the ring and hazard that RTE are adding a dance service to the MUX?

Is this what they think people want. More looped music?

Radio|Man · 13-02-2008 7:41pm

watty wrote: »

The DVB-h was a closed TV trial. Also O2 was looking at the wrong things. DVB-h is more interesting for Radio, though is not bad even on a 10" kitchen or Bedside TV (I've seen such a thing, not to be confused with the 7" and 10" portable DVB-t LCD TVs).

DVB-h and DRM can use the better than MP3, ACC codec. DAB is using MP2 codec. Fine at 256k Stereo. Rubbish at the typically used 128k. I use 256K MP3 on my phone media player.

DAB is only a set from FM-VHF in terms of choice. DAB sets only selling because they are on shelf. More products are being bought online. Hence Virgin selling their record stores and Dixions closed in UK.

Worldwide the future of Digital Radio is not DAB. Worldspace is starting new services for Europe, UK and Ireland too. Eutelsat and Astra are testing portable/Mobile/car radio services.

DAB was launched too soon. In UK it has too many channels, reducing quality. In Ireland it has too few and no compelling reason to change.

DAB radios are selling for same reason as Vista. Because they are there. Recently in all walks the UK has lost the Plot. I'd rather take notice of what Germany, Scandinavia, Italy are doing.

DVB-h texas chip set is lower power and cheaper than DAB will ever be and can cheaply be put in anything. The receiver is only on for 1/10th of the time as the OFDM transmission uses timeslots. One timeslot can have maybe 10 to 20 radio stations. That's 1/10th of one MUX! The texas chip is used in Italian receivers, mostly Mobile phones made by LG, Nokia and possibly ZTE (They do have 3g/DVB-h handset). I think due to tiny world wide adoption of DAB and very widespread DRM adoption (SW,MW and LW but still a couple of years away consumer wise) and wide adoption of DVB-h outside USA. there will be little chip development going forward on DAB. The system does not lend itself to kind of very low power consumption (weeks on lithium or 4 x AA Alkaline NOW!) that DVB-h is designed for.

Right, so a National DVB-H network is what Irish radio needs.

You seem to be missing the point, there is no relationship between radio makers and DVB-H. It is seen as a medium for mobile TV transmission, not for kitchen radio and no development has taken place in this regard.

So you are telling me that future radio will only be available via mobile handsets ?

At this point I think its best I leave the room for a while.

DVB-H !!! ffs !

david23 · 13-02-2008 7:52pm

DVB-H will NOT be a universal standard for digital radio across Europe.

France has opted for DMB and other countries (including Germany, Italy & Sweden) have opted for DAB+. Both of these use the AAC/AAC+ codec.

Some radio stations will piggy-back on national DVB-H muxes when mobile TV services launch but it isn't suitable for local radio because each DVB-H mux takes up about three times the bandwidth of a DAB/DMB mux, making it very inefficient when used for a patchwork of local licences.

Satellite radio will require a subscription so it won't be a threat to terrestrial radio.

L1011 · 13-02-2008 11:43pm

DPC wrote: »

Just did a re-scan. Theres a new DAB service called RTE xxxxx carrying dance music and the DLS is reading 'music for the millenium generation' Hmmmmmmmm where have I heard that before eh?

Ill throw my hat in the ring and hazard that RTE are adding a dance service to the MUX?

Was coming on here to mention that. What service has been removed for it? The mux was full, and the receiver I've got in this room here has a woeful interface (Irish engineered, at that, oh dear...).

Actually I can't find the RTE 1 AM feed. Which might be because the want us to forget RTE 1 AM exists

RTÉ Pulse: Dave · 14-02-2008 12:11am

The mux wasnt full, it seems they are now getting clever with CU usage! the AM service now only comes on for times when their is alternative content on AM such as sports or mass so the CU's are not wasted on a full am DAB service. Tune in on a saturday at 1400 for the sports split to see how it works.
Its all quite clever really!

L1011 · 14-02-2008 5:54am

It always did that - however, there was a placeholder present at all times - now there isn't.

They also weren't doing anything with the spare CUs at the time except transmitting packbits - unlike the BBCs "lets allocate it to Radio 3" option.

Foggy43 · 14-02-2008 1:49pm

Are you talking about something like we have in the UK.

We have BBC Radio 5 with 2 sometimes 3 sub channels depending on how intense the sporting calendar is. Last Saturday we had the Main Radio 5 Live doing the around the grounds, one sub channel doing France v Ireland and the another doing Sunderland v Wigan. Last year when Wimbledon was on there was several channels covering the main courts. These channels are only active when required.

I wonder will RTE follow an example we have here. A station closed down so someone got 2 microphones, stereo of course, and put the in a wooded area. The pick up birds of the feathered variety singing. So now we have 'Birdsong' 24 hours a day! Funny thing is that there was a programe recently saying wood pigeons were moving in to built up areas. Now they have there own radio station :eek:

RTÉ Pulse: Dave · 14-02-2008 3:55pm

Hi Foggy,
Yes this is exactly what they are doing with Radio 1 Extra. Currently there is only one sub carrier of radio 1 that comes on Saturday at 1358 to 1758 for sport and at 0958 to 1132 for the mass and again at 1358 to 1758 for sunday sport.

RTÉ Pulse: Dave · 14-02-2008 3:57pm

Hi Foggy,
Yes this is exactly what they are doing with Radio 1 Extra. Currently there is only one sub carrier of radio 1 that comes on Saturday at 1358 to 1758 for sport and at 0958 to 1132 for the mass and again at 1358 to 1758 for sunday sport.

marclt · 15-02-2008 11:11am

DPC wrote: »

Hi Foggy,
Yes this is exactly what they are doing with Radio 1 Extra. Currently there is only one sub carrier of radio 1 that comes on Saturday at 1358 to 1758 for sport and at 0958 to 1132 for the mass and again at 1358 to 1758 for sunday sport.

Its going to be a little confusing if there is no placeholder there whilst the service isn't active. At least BBC5live extra has an audio loop advising of forthcoming broadcasts... quite well produced too really!

RTÉ Pulse: Dave · 15-02-2008 1:29pm

Hi foggy,
Most receivers build up a database of stations that they ever received. This information is always carried in the FIC. The trouble with putting out an extreemly low kilobit rate audio loop is that its a total waste of CU's and many receivers wont pick up anything below 64k or above 192k for that matter.

DMC · 15-02-2008 7:11pm

marclt wrote: »

At least BBC5live extra has an audio loop advising of forthcoming broadcasts... quite well produced too really!

This can vary between 5 and 15 minutes before the start of the advertised programme on DAB.

DAB in Ireland: RTE multiplex closed

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