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Is being gay a choice

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  • #62
    ViveLaVie
    Registered Users Posts: 984 ✭✭✭ViveLaVie


    feckedformocks wrote: »
    Yes, which I referred to in my response, which mentioned something about conscious give it another read sure.

    What difference does it make if it's conscious or not? The same psychological motivations are at play.

    ViveLaVie wrote: »
    It just makes it a bit easier to know you you're talking to then. :)


    The fact remains, that even if the choice is unconscious, the psychological motivations for making this choice are the same. You have mentioned discrimination, procreation and societal pressures as influences on these choices. I don't believe that I unconsciously tended towards heterosexuality above bisexuality or homosexuality. In this line of thinking, bisexuals are the only people who are not subject to psychological or societal pressures? Why would this be?


    I do not believe I ever had the capacity for a bisexual or homosexual relationship as IMO I was born straight. If I accept your argument, then that means my sexual orientation is fluid and open to reinterpretation; biologically I still retain the capacity to be bisexual or homosexual but I have refused both of those orientations. :confused:


  • #63
    feckedformocks
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25 ✭feckedformocks


    OldNotWIse wrote: »
    Gawd stop being so narky :D Just trying to have a discussion. Er...do you mind if I dont(trawl back)? I'm leaving here in 6.5 mins to go see my lovely gf (who incidentally shares your views about the "choice" element - I believe she likened it to deciding one day you might not like ketchup anymore....I watch her anxiously when we're in the chippie :rolleyes:) Actually I'm sorry for the tone of my posts, I have my girlies and am like a barb at the mo :mad: (yes yes I hear you say that oul' card, tmi etc etc) I guess none of us will ever be proved wrong or right. :) But for sure I will read the posts again tomorrow I promise. Have a nice evening.


    Haha i wouldn't be too pushed myself at the end of the day you are either gay, bi, straight or even in-between.... I do detecht the humour behind those lines. good man urself


  • #64
    feckedformocks
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25 ✭feckedformocks


    feckedformocks wrote: »
    Haha i wouldn't be too pushed myself at the end of the day you are either gay, bi, straight or even in-between.... I do detecht the humour behind those lines. good man urself

    I am also hungry, shtarving (for food...)


  • #65
    keepkeyyellow
    Registered Users Posts: 705 ✭✭✭keepkeyyellow


    This should be pinned or something. I am sick of people asking this question.

    Like does the whole gay community have to explain ourselves to one person ? We don't ask straight people did they choose to be straight


  • #66
    ViveLaVie
    Registered Users Posts: 984 ✭✭✭ViveLaVie


    keepkeyyellow wrote: »
    This should be pinned or something. I am sick of people asking this question.

    Like does the whole gay community have to explain ourselves to one person ? We don't ask straight people did they choose to be straight

    I completely agree. I think a more appropriate title for this thread would be "Is sexual orientation a choice?" because tbh the main argument on this thread regards all sexual orientations.

    Also feckedformocks I'm interested to hear your response to my counter on the conscious/unconscious thing.


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  • #67
    Fergus_Nash
    Registered Users Posts: 228 ✭✭Fergus_Nash


    Ok I suppose I better come back here. One or two answers to my question but in the middle it got very odd for a while.
    floggg wrote: »
    OP, why don't you turn this question on its head to see how much sense it makes?

    Did you choose to be straight and if so, when and why? Do you have sexual attractions to men but choose not to act on them? Could you wake up tomorrow and decide to be gay for a week or two, find men sexually attractive and "stimulating", go sleep with a whole bunch of men and enjoy the whole thing?

    If your answer is "no, don't be ridiculous, I'm straight and my penis couldn't get erect if I was asked to sleep with loads of men," then please don't be so silly that people choose to be "gay" for the craic even though it can mean being discriminated against, abused, bullied, beaten or even killed.

    If your answer is "yes I could, but then I'd still prefer women" then your bisexual with a preference for women.

    If your answer is "OMG that sounds totes amazing", then your gayer then a glee christmas special.

    I'm not trying to be flippant, and I'm sure you were coming from a genuine place in asking. And i'm not trying to accuse you of being gay.

    It's just when you stop and think about it, it's either a silly question or the person asking it is at the very least bisexual.

    You see I've done that and I still didn't get the answer. But maybe this is it - we all find our sexual orientation around puberty or thereabouts i.e. my sentence about girls having cooties at ten and smouldering hotness at fifteen. Then straight people just go on as normal and go out with the opposite sex. But LGB people have to come out. Is it because they are going against "societal norm" that they have to come out?

    And before somebody is seething with anger, I do not mean that LGB people are not normal, just that you have to come out as opposed to straight people who just go along and get into a relationship without any fuss or question.

    And that's probably where I am coming from. LGB people have to come out and it is a big deal, whereas straight people don't. Why is this?


  • #68
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    feckedformocks wrote: »
    Haha i wouldn't be too pushed myself at the end of the day you are either gay, bi, straight or even in-between.... I do detecht the humour behind those lines. good man urself
    Er... good man? :confused:
    keepkeyyellow wrote: »
    This should be pinned or something. I am sick of people asking this question.

    Like does the whole gay community have to explain ourselves to one person ? We don't ask straight people did they choose to be straight

    True :)


  • #69
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,710 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Fergus_Nash wrote: »
    Ok I suppose I better come back here. One or two answers to my question but in the middle it got very odd for a while.



    You see I've done that and I still didn't get the answer. But maybe this is it - we all find our sexual orientation around puberty or thereabouts i.e. my sentence about girls having cooties at ten and smouldering hotness at fifteen. Then straight people just go on as normal and go out with the opposite sex. But LGB people have to come out. Is it because they are going against "societal norm" that they have to come out?

    And before somebody is seething with anger, I do not mean that LGB people are not normal, just that you have to come out as opposed to straight people who just go along and get into a relationship without any fuss or question.

    And that's probably where I am coming from. LGB people have to come out and it is a big deal, whereas straight people don't. Why is this?

    Heteronormativity

    Society designs so many things around straight couples in a marriage being the normal and taking on normative gender roles. It begins in the school with school books showing mummy in the kitchen and daddy in the garden and then you get all the fairytales so peoole are socialised from an early age that heterosexual realtionships with strict gender roles are normal.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #70
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    Fergus_Nash wrote: »
    Ok I suppose I better come back here. One or two answers to my question but in the middle it got very odd for a while.



    You see I've done that and I still didn't get the answer. But maybe this is it - we all find our sexual orientation around puberty or thereabouts i.e. my sentence about girls having cooties at ten and smouldering hotness at fifteen. Then straight people just go on as normal and go out with the opposite sex. But LGB people have to come out. Is it because they are going against "societal norm" that they have to come out?

    And before somebody is seething with anger, I do not mean that LGB people are not normal, just that you have to come out as opposed to straight people who just go along and get into a relationship without any fuss or question.

    And that's probably where I am coming from. LGB people have to come out and it is a big deal, whereas straight people don't. Why is this?

    I can understand the point of your post, without taking offence. I think we know that saying "normal/abnormal" is not an intentional dig (if we were to pull ourselves up at every perceived political incorrection sure we'd be here all day lol). I suppose its like any minority, or anything thats not mainstream.


  • #71
    floggg
    Registered Users Posts: 5,820 ✭✭✭floggg


    Fergus_Nash wrote: »

    You see I've done that and I still didn't get the answer. But maybe this is it - we all find our sexual orientation around puberty or thereabouts i.e. my sentence about girls having cooties at ten and smouldering hotness at fifteen. Then straight people just go on as normal and go out with the opposite sex. But LGB people have to come out. Is it because they are going against "societal norm" that they have to come out?

    And before somebody is seething with anger, I do not mean that LGB people are not normal, just that you have to come out as opposed to straight people who just go along and get into a relationship without any fuss or question.

    And that's probably where I am coming from. LGB people have to come out and it is a big deal, whereas straight people don't. Why is this?

    Just to clarify, does your question solely relate to coming out rather than sexual attraction?

    Gay people will stop having to come out when the rest of society stops caring about who we sleep with.


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  • #72
    ongarboy
    Registered Users Posts: 5,201 ✭✭✭ongarboy


    Fergus_Nash wrote: »
    And that's probably where I am coming from. LGB people have to come out and it is a big deal, whereas straight people don't. Why is this?

    I believe the reason some (and certainly not all) come out is because for the most part, society perceives and assumes being straight is the norm. Any exception to the rule may prompt you to have to explain yourself should you feel you have to (ie coming out in the case of sexual orientation). When something is not the norm, there can be an expectation to explain it. Whether you do explain/come out is up to each individual. Of course there are situations where you are outed by others which may or may not be desirable depending on the circumstances.

    For example, I will get strangers or people who don't know me well assuming I have a wife or girlfriend in comments they make to me, guys may make sexual comments about women to me assuming I also would feel the same way (eg She's hot! or I'd do her...! etc). The point is you are assumed to be straight (unless of course you have stereotypical attributes that mean you don't have to verbally come out). By not coming out, there can be awkward situations where you have to pretend or omit facts or indeed lie about yourself which, personally, I would find too much of a cross to bear the older I get, hence my reason for coming out when I did.

    You say coming out is a big deal - sure it is for some and not for others, likewise for the people you are coming out to - it may or may not be a big deal. I think the key is not to make assumptions or generalisations about anything, particularly sexuality.


  • #73
    whattotdo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 58 ✭✭whattotdo


    I am a homosexual male and I believe its genetic.I have two brothers who are also gay.We have a gay uncle(my mother's brother).Its my opinion that my mother also carried the gay gene and it passed on to me and my siblings.Same with straight people-genetic.I must stress it's only my opinion.
    To echo,what Baby and Crumble said why would anyone choose to be gay.My brother is a garda,he lives a lie at work feels he cant tell his colleagues at work or he would face untold amount of discrimination,cant even add them on fb as they would then know he's homosexual.My other brother is a primary school teacher,if he mentioned that in his interview he might not of got the job and have some parents take their children out of his classroom.How could anyone suggest one chooses to be gay with all the discrimination we face.


  • #74
    Azure_sky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,131 ✭✭✭Azure_sky


    I would say sexual orientation is a biological imperative. Choice is a poor word to use for such discussions. It's technically a choice whether or not to escape from a burning building.


  • #75
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    whattotdo wrote: »
    I am a homosexual male and I believe its genetic.I have two brothers who are also gay.We have a gay uncle(my mother's brother).Its my opinion that my mother also carried the gay gene and it passed on to me and my siblings.Same with straight people-genetic.I must stress it's only my opinion.
    To echo,what Baby and Crumble said why would anyone choose to be gay.My brother is a garda,he lives a lie at work feels he cant tell his colleagues at work or he would face untold amount of discrimination,cant even add them on fb as they would then know he's homosexual.My other brother is a primary school teacher,if he mentioned that in his interview he might not of got the job and have some parents take their children out of his classroom.How could anyone suggest one chooses to be gay with all the discrimination we face.
    I agree with you that it certainly not a choice. How sad that we still live in a society where your brothers must hide their true selves in order to keep the peace. Certainly many small minded people would make your brother's (the teacher's) life hell if they knew. Is their much homophobia in the guards?

    You could be onto something re genetics. One of my exes has about 4 or 5 gay cousins and possibly one sibling also. My girlfriend's brother is gay, and one cousin aswell. The only thing I dont understand though is if it is genetic, surely it wouldn't still be prevalent? (given that gay people tend not to have procreated) Would the gene not have been wiped out by now? though like you said it if its recessive and some people are carriers etc...must go back to the LC bio books lol :D Whether genetic or not, I do believe its certainly "biological" as opposed to some informed decision we make. I heard a theory before that its something to do with a certain point in embryonic development when the embryo gets a "dose" of certain hormones, and sometimes the levels are mixed up or something and hence someone ends up gay..(not very scientific wording but its hangover friday after boozy thursday lol)


  • #76
    bodice ripper
    Registered Users Posts: 4,681 ✭✭✭bodice ripper


    For me it is a choice, at least sexually.

    I am bisexual and female. I can and have made conscious choices to avoid sexually interacting with a particular gender.

    I am going to be straight for a bit - because it is convenient, I am sick of the mind reading with women, I am curious etc.


    I have no control over who I can bond with emotionally though.


  • #77
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    bodice ripper wrote: »
    For me it is a choice, at least sexually.

    I am bisexual and female. I can and have made conscious choices to avoid sexually interacting with a particular gender.

    I am going to be straight for a bit - because it is convenient, I am sick of the mind reading with women, I am curious etc.


    I have no control over who I can bond with emotionally though.

    I am sick of women's mind games also, but am stuck with them :( lol


  • #78
    A_Sober_Paddy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,221 ✭✭✭A_Sober_Paddy


    dory wrote: »
    I first fancied a girl when I was 4 - so I would say it's not a choice as I certainly didn't choose anything at that age.

    What you're talking about is people who are gay for a while and then get married to someone of the opposite sex. That is totally different from the usual 'is gay a choice' question.

    In answer to that. Yes, I've seen a lot of people who are gay, have long term gay relationships and then one day decide they can't do it, they can't go against the norm. Some want children more than they want to be with someone they're sexually attracted to. I've had a few friends get married and drunkenly admit they don't fancy the person they married, they just needed the perfect family idea.

    So in your sense, it is a choice to live the life of a gay person because one can also choose to pretend and go get married.

    Am I the only one who finds that incredible sad?


  • #79
    coolperson05
    Registered Users Posts: 280 ✭✭coolperson05


    A_Sober_Paddy wrote: »
    Am I the only one who finds that incredible sad?

    Nope I totally agree. Imagine living a lie all the time...But I do agree, it happened in my family. I'd settle for no kids and a happy love life, but that's just me!


  • #80
    A_Sober_Paddy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,221 ✭✭✭A_Sober_Paddy


    coolperson05 wrote: »
    Nope I totally agree. Imagine living a lie all the time...But I do agree, it happened in my family. I'd settle for no kids and a happy love life, but that's just me!

    What I found sad was they were living a lie because they got married even though they were gay...


  • #81
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    A_Sober_Paddy wrote: »
    Am I the only one who finds that incredible sad?
    I find it really sad also! :(
    coolperson05 wrote: »
    Nope I totally agree. Imagine living a lie all the time...But I do agree, it happened in my family. I'd settle for no kids and a happy love life, but that's just me!

    Can't imagine it. I'm lucky to have a v supportive and open minded family (the coming out conversation basically went:
    Parents: Are you gay
    Me: yes, I'm sorry
    Parents: dont be ridiculous, once you're happy and you're not hurting yourself or others we dont care what you do


    I know a lot of people dont have it this easy :( If I had to choose, I would, like you, choose a partner and love life over children, but I'm greedy - I want both! I'm so broody already at 28!


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  • #82
    Babybuff
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,118 ✭✭✭Babybuff


    bodice ripper wrote: »
    For me it is a choice, at least sexually.

    I am bisexual and female. I can and have made conscious choices to avoid sexually interacting with a particular gender.

    I am going to be straight for a bit - because it is convenient, I am sick of the mind reading with women, I am curious etc.


    I have no control over who I can bond with emotionally though.
    Just wondering, the women who play head games, do you find it's gay/bi women or just women in general?


  • #83
    whattotdo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 58 ✭✭whattotdo


    OldNotWIse wrote: »
    I agree with you that it certainly not a choice. How sad that we still live in a society where your brothers must hide their true selves in order to keep the peace. Certainly many small minded people would make your brother's (the teacher's) life hell if they knew. Is their much homophobia in the guards?


    You could be onto something re genetics. One of my exes has about 4 or 5 gay cousins and possibly one sibling also. My girlfriend's brother is gay, and one cousin aswell. The only thing I dont understand though is if it is genetic, surely it wouldn't still be prevalent? (given that gay people tend not to have procreated) Would the gene not have been wiped out by now? though like you said it if its recessive and some people are carriers etc...must go back to the LC bio books lol :D Whether genetic or not, I do believe its certainly "biological" as opposed to some informed decision we make. I heard a theory before that its something to do with a certain point in embryonic development when the embryo gets a "dose" of certain hormones, and sometimes the levels are mixed up or something and hence someone ends up gay..(not very scientific wording but its hangover friday after boozy thursday lol)

    I 100% believe its genetics eventhough homosexual couples cant reproduce as you say.I also have a sister who is straight she could well have a gay gene that is dormant which her children will inherit.In some of them it will remain dormant therefore passing on to next generation .Yes,from his experience the guards is a very homophobic environment to work in,gay jokes been the most popular type of joke.He has been in three different stations and homophobia was prevalent in all three.It would be unfair of me to generalise the whole organisation but he hates his job because he can't be his true self,his partner is a 'she' and not a 'he','him' becomes 'her'...his partner is never free when work meet up socially,no quality of life.He plans to keep his private life and work life totally separate but that will only last for so long


  • #84
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    whattotdo wrote: »
    I 100% believe its genetics eventhough homosexual couples cant reproduce as you say.I also have a sister who is straight she could well have a gay gene that is dormant which her children will inherit.In some of them it will remain dormant therefore passing on to next generation .Yes,from his experience the guards is a very homophobic environment to work in,gay jokes been the most popular type of joke.He has been in three different stations and homophobia was prevalent in all three.It would be unfair of me to generalise the whole organisation but he hates his job because he can't be his true self,his partner is a 'she' and not a 'he','him' becomes 'her'...his partner is never free when work meet up socially,no quality of life.He plans to keep his private life and work life totally separate but that will only last for so long
    That actually makes sense. I think I'm the only gay person in my family :( I spent years hoping someone else would come out just so I would not be the only one lol

    Thats so terrible about the guards. Perhaps if he came out they wouldn't be as bad though? If they dont know there's a gay colleague they might be more free and easy with their slagging (not that I in any way condone the slagging of course) but if they knew he was gay, they might realise, "hey he's actually still the same guy, same colleague, same guard" - perhaps I'm being a little idealistic though :(


  • #85
    whattotdo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 58 ✭✭whattotdo


    OldNotWIse wrote: »
    That actually makes sense. I think I'm the only gay person in my family :( I spent years hoping someone else would come out just so I would not be the only one lol

    Thats so terrible about the guards. Perhaps if he came out they wouldn't be as bad though? If they dont know there's a gay colleague they might be more free and easy with their slagging (not that I in any way condone the slagging of course) but if they knew he was gay, they might realise, "hey he's actually still the same guy, same colleague, same guard" - perhaps I'm being a little idealistic though :(


    He often thought of coming out but eventually he will have to,lies will catch up with him.His work colleagues would probably then stop the slagging but instead of saying it they'd be thinking it and leave it to when he's not present.It all comes back to fact that LGBT community is a minority group so we are an easy target even with the likes of Obama supporting equal rights.The only way slagging will stop is if we are no longer a minority group imo:(
    Thanks for your advice,I'll pass it onto him.
    Sorry mods if this is slightly off topic but I suppose it backs up my opinion that its not a choice.


  • #86
    Babybuff
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,118 ✭✭✭Babybuff


    whattotdo wrote: »
    He often thought of coming out but eventually he will have to,lies will catch up with him.His work colleagues would probably then stop the slagging but instead of saying it they'd be thinking it and leave it to when he's not present.It all comes back to fact that LGBT community is a minority group so we are an easy target even with the likes of Obama supporting equal rights.The only way slagging will stop is if we are no longer a minority group imo:(
    Thanks for your advice,I'll pass it onto him.
    Sorry mods if this is slightly off topic but I suppose it backs up my opinion that its not a choice.
    you do realise that for a long as it's considered a genetic difference you will always be in a minority.


  • #87
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    whattotdo wrote: »
    He often thought of coming out but eventually he will have to,lies will catch up with him.His work colleagues would probably then stop the slagging but instead of saying it they'd be thinking it and leave it to when he's not present.It all comes back to fact that LGBT community is a minority group so we are an easy target even with the likes of Obama supporting equal rights.The only way slagging will stop is if we are no longer a minority group imo:(
    Thanks for your advice,I'll pass it onto him.
    Sorry mods if this is slightly off topic but I suppose it backs up my opinion that its not a choice.

    I agree minority groups are always an easy target for bullies who validate their own existence by putting others down. Sometimes, a good way to come out is to "not" come out. Instead of saying, "hey everyone I have something to tell you - I'm gay" it can be good to just drop it casually into conversation. Thats what I did at work. When someone asked if I was bringing anyone to the work Christmas party, I said, "yeah my girlfriend, if she's about that night". In a way, if a gay person makes a big issue about being gay, it kind of sets the precedent for their straight counterparts to do the same. Of course, this is not to say that their actions are in any way justified or right. I can only imagine how difficult it is for him to be in this environment and feel such pressure. I hope all goes well for him.
    Babybuff wrote: »
    you do realise that for a long as it's considered a genetic difference you will always be in a minority.

    Is the minority status not to do with the percentage of people who actually fall under the category in question rather than why or how they fall under it? Be it genetics, hormonal, psychological etc, are gay people not considered a "minority" because of their numbers, as opposed to their beliefs as to why they are gay in the first place?

    Minority
    1.the smaller part or number; a number, part, or amount forming less than half of the whole.
    2. a smaller party or group opposed to a majority, as in voting or other action.
    3. a group differing, especially in race, religion, or ethnic background, from the majority of a population: legislation aimed at providing equal rights for minorities.
    4. a member of such a group.
    5. the state or period of being under the legal age of full responsibility.


  • #88
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,710 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    I really don't know why we continually tie ourselves up in knots over nature v nurture and I also wonder why we do so. It seems to me that there is an ulterior motive behind it all. If it's nature - we can abort the foetuses that might turn out gay - If it's nurture we can train the parents how not to create gay children. I am what I am and I don't see the point in trying to find out why so that right wing zealots can suppress others like me.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #89
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    mango salsa wrote: »
    I really don't know why we continually tie ourselves up in knots over nature v nurture and I also wonder why we do so. It seems to me that there is an ulterior motive behind it all. If it's nature - we can abort the foetuses that might turn out gay - If it's nurture we can train the parents how not to create gay children. I am what I am and I don't see the point in trying to find out why so that right wing zealots can suppress others like me.

    Why?


  • #90
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,710 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    OldNotWIse wrote: »
    Why?
    I'm being dramatic but that is the logical conclusion that comes to me about people obsessing about why we are what we are

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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  • #91
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    mango salsa wrote: »
    I'm being dramatic but that is the logical conclusion that comes to me about people obsessing about why we are what we are


    Ah ok, :)


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