Swords Club League suspended

Lumen · 30-06-2012 3:37pm

1993 act (link above).

"(2) A person who intends to hold, organise or promote a road race shall give at least one month's notice (or such other period of notice as may be prescribed by the Minister) in writing to the road authority and to the Superintendent of the Garda Síochána within whose district the road race is to be held."

2012 Cycling Ireland regs

"The organiser will notify the police of the race at least one month in advance or in accordance with the appropriate legal requirements, and must ensure that Cycling Irelands Safety Code is adhered to"

doozerie · 30-06-2012 3:42pm

Inquitus wrote: »

I think it would be a good idea to circulate an email with the do's and dont's of marshalling to all members prior to the race season so people know the limits etc. and we can avoid this sort of occurance.

Here is a useful guide to marshaling that I've seen circulated this year and last year. It's quite comprehensive and obviously some work went into it, it would be worth making it more readily available if possible. In the circumstances it would also be worth emphasising in those guidelines that marshals actually have no authority so bear that in mind when deciding how to deal with a scenario where a motorists appears unwilling to stop.

Vizzy · 30-06-2012 3:48pm

^^^^^
This is where common sense comes in.
I would assume that the secretary of the cycle club/running club/rallying club etc would approach the Gardai and the Local Authority at the beginning of each year and say something on the lines of "we intend to run our bike league(rally etc) on Wednesday nights from 7 to 9 on the XXXX road during June do ye have a problem with that"

LA/Gardai " No problem here cos ye have always run a very safe event,but make sure everyone knows what they are at"

Club Secretary "Fair enough so,can I get that in writing,thanks"

Lumen · 30-06-2012 3:55pm

The guard states that racing on a public road is an offence. This is clearly not the case.

English Bob · 30-06-2012 5:37pm

Lads let's not become intimidated because of the complainants occupation. Would we all be so upset and react the same if this complaint came from a baker or an estate agent etc., this complaint was from a member of the public and whilst there should be a procedure in the club for dealing with these sorts of things I think there has been a bit of over reaction and it's time to put things in perspective.

Bunnyhopper · 30-06-2012 8:43pm

I know you don't want to get too caught up in the specifics of this particular complaint, but could someone who has seen this letter just clarify whether it's a personal communication from someone who happens to be a Garda (and presumably mentions that in the letter) or is an official communication of some sort, e.g., on headed Garda notepaper?

Dermot Illogical · 30-06-2012 9:14pm

Bunnyhopper wrote: »

I know you don't want to get too caught up in the specifics of this particular complaint, but could someone who has seen this letter just clarify whether it's a personal communication from someone who happens to be a Garda (and presumably mentions that in the letter) or is an official communication of some sort, e.g., on headed Garda notepaper?

It's an email. The club circulated the text of the complaint but removed identifying information.

fixie fox · 30-06-2012 9:26pm

doozerie wrote: »

Beasty wrote:

Additional points were raised that the guard believed that illegal road closures had taken place;

I'd be very interested to know what the garda in question, or the gardai generally in fact, consider a "road closure". In the league I participate in we stop traffic only for as long at is takes the riders to clear a junction (or severe bend where necessary), and I would assume it's the very same for other leagues too. This means stopping traffic for probably no more than 1 or 2 minutes for each bunch, and typically the bunches are spaced a few minutes apart. That to me would not constitute a road closure as such, but if the gardai take a different view then it's hard to see how any race could be safely run (i.e. with marshals at danger points) on open roads without falling foul of the formal and tricky requirements that this garda seems to be saying are necessary. That wouldn't bode well, I think.

But, i presume, you have no legal right to stop traffic and therefore you are acting illegally. I also marshall from time to time. I do flag down traffic and politely ask motorists to wait, but I know I have no right to prevent them from proceeding. 'traffic management' should always occur with tha Gardai at least advised of it - it's a minimum courtesy if nothing else.

Eamonnator · 30-06-2012 10:32pm

Lumen wrote: »

The guard states that racing on a public road is an offence. This is clearly not the case.

I agree.
However, Most racing cyclists regularly commit offences against the Road Traffic Acts, eg. crossing continuous white lines, not stopping at Stop signs,
cycling five and sometimes more abreast across the road, etc.. Furthermore team cars, motor cycle marshals, lead cars and other race vehicles commit similar offences.
If the letter of the law was obeyed in every road race, could racing continue
in Ireland?

Mycroft H · 01-07-2012 12:24am

Eamonnator wrote: »

I agree.
However, Most racing cyclists regularly commit offences against the Road Traffic Acts, eg. crossing continuous white lines, not stopping at Stop signs,
cycling five and sometimes more abreast across the road, etc.. Furthermore team cars, motor cycle marshals, lead cars and other race vehicles commit similar offences.
If the letter of the law was obeyed in every road race, could racing continue
in Ireland?

I can't remember the last time I saw a club race with riders 5 abreast. 5 abreast would push you into the oncoming lane wouldn't it (thinking average width road here)?

Eamonnator · 01-07-2012 8:19am

BX 19 wrote: »

I can't remember the last time I saw a club race with riders 5 abreast. 5 abreast would push you into the oncoming lane wouldn't it (thinking average width road here)?

I Wasn't just talking about club races.
By some freak accident, earlier in the year, I found myself in a bunch gallop,
We were certainly five abreast, and taking up the entire width of the road.

Lumen · 01-07-2012 8:50am

This is great stuff lads, keep it up.

Perhaps we could turn this thread into an running testimony of all the times racing cyclists have broken the ROTR?

It'll make this random garda's job that bit easier.

trad · 01-07-2012 9:27am

I've just come across this thread and I'd like to throw my tuppence worth into the discussion.

I speak as an ex Garda traffic motorcyclist, a former FIC Commissaire and way back in the year dot, a racing cyclist.

From reading this thread it is my assumption that the committee took the decision to suspend the league on the basis of an email sent by an off duty Garda from his personal email account.

I do not know the individual concerned. I have seen the conduct of road races in my time and doubt it has changed greatly since.

I think this might be the piece of legislation he may be referring to
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/si/0182.html#zzsi182y1997a47

Pedal Cyclists

47. (1) A pedal cyclist shall not drive a pedal cycle on a roadway in such a manner as to result in more than two pedal cyclists driving abreast, save when overtaking other pedal cyclists, and then only if to do so will not endanger, inconvenience or obstruct other traffic or pedestrians.

(2) Pedal cyclists on a roadway shall cycle in single file when overtaking other traffic.
Cycle racing has been taking place on public roads in Ireland for as long as more than 1 person had a bike. I escorted several Rás's around the country and while there were no formal road closures in place we implemented a "rolling road closure" which had no legal status but it conducted the race in a safe fashion which some riders took advantage of. Some formal road closures were in place for the final stage circuit.

To the more salient point. The " correspondence" recieved by the club is not an official correspondence. It is the opinion of one member of the force conveyed by email, not an official correspendence or legal document.

I would suggest that the commitee make contact with the local Traffic unit, looking for a meeting with an Inspector or Superintendent from that department. Inform them of the correspondence, tell them what action you have taken or are going to put in place to ensre the safe passage of all and seek their guidance for the races to continue. If the marshall was out of line, iinform them of the training you have put in place for marshalls, emphasing that safety was the marshall primary concern.

If at this stage the offended off duty Garda gets in contact again you can refer him or her to the Officer you are in contact with.

Eamonnator · 01-07-2012 1:49pm

Lumen wrote: »

This is great stuff lads, keep it up.

Perhaps we could turn this thread into an running testimony of all the times racing cyclists have broken the ROTR?

It'll make this random garda's job that bit easier.

You made a point, I countered it, what did you expect?

Lumen · 01-07-2012 2:02pm

Eamonnator wrote: »

You made a point, I countered it, what did you expect?

My point was simply that racing on open roads is not itself illegal.

I don't remember stating that cyclists never break the ROTR whilst racing. It certainly isn't a requirement of racing.

Eamonnator · 01-07-2012 3:57pm

Lumen wrote: »

My point was simply that racing on open roads is not itself illegal.

I don't remember stating that cyclists never break the ROTR whilst racing. It certainly isn't a requirement of racing.

Equally, I don't remember, stating, that cyclists always break the ROTR whilst racing.

Lusk Doyle · 01-07-2012 4:05pm

Eamonnator wrote: »

Lumen wrote: »

My point was simply that racing on open roads is not itself illegal.

I don't remember stating that cyclists never break the ROTR whilst racing. It certainly isn't a requirement of racing.

Equally, I don't remember, stating, that cyclists always break the ROTR whilst racing.

Oh FFS lads, give it over. Our league suspension is the issue here not semantics.

fat bloke · 01-07-2012 4:48pm

Lusk Doyle wrote: »

Oh FFS lads, give it over. Our league suspension is the issue here not semantics.

Semantics is the lifeblood of boards:rolleyes:

Hope this business doesn't affect other leagues.

greenmat · 01-07-2012 5:22pm

trad wrote: »

I've just come across this thread and I'd like to throw my tuppence worth into the discussion.

I speak as an ex Garda traffic motorcyclist, a former FIC Commissaire and way back in the year dot, a racing cyclist.

From reading this thread it is my assumption that the committee took the decision to suspend the league on the basis of an email sent by an off duty Garda from his personal email account.

I do not know the individual concerned. I have seen the conduct of road races in my time and doubt it has changed greatly since.

I think this might be the piece of legislation he may be referring to
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/si/0182.html#zzsi182y1997a47

Pedal Cyclists

47. (1) A pedal cyclist shall not drive a pedal cycle on a roadway in such a manner as to result in more than two pedal cyclists driving abreast, save when overtaking other pedal cyclists, and then only if to do so will not endanger, inconvenience or obstruct other traffic or pedestrians.

(2) Pedal cyclists on a roadway shall cycle in single file when overtaking other traffic.
Cycle racing has been taking place on public roads in Ireland for as long as more than 1 person had a bike. I escorted several Rás's around the country and while there were no formal road closures in place we implemented a "rolling road closure" which had no legal status but it conducted the race in a safe fashion which some riders took advantage of. Some formal road closures were in place for the final stage circuit.

To the more salient point. The " correspondence" recieved by the club is not an official correspondence. It is the opinion of one member of the force conveyed by email, not an official correspendence or legal document.

I would suggest that the commitee make contact with the local Traffic unit, looking for a meeting with an Inspector or Superintendent from that department. Inform them of the correspondence, tell them what action you have taken or are going to put in place to ensre the safe passage of all and seek their guidance for the races to continue. If the marshall was out of line, iinform them of the training you have put in place for marshalls, emphasing that safety was the marshall primary concern.

If at this stage the offended off duty Garda gets in contact again you can refer him or her to the Officer you are have been in contact with.

A brillant post.

robs1 · 02-07-2012 9:20pm

MOD VOICE- The OP and the club have left the name of the Garda involved out of there statement, at this point in time it is not relevant to the discussion and I am advising posters that attempts to identify said member of AGS will be dealt with in the same manner as someone trying to identify an anonymous poster.

The Garda in question identified himself to the club, the club in turn removed his name from discussions with their members, we will be showing the Garda in question the same level of respect regardless of peoples opinion on the matter until such time as his identity comes into the public domain from another source

Hungrycol · 04-07-2012 9:06am

Anyone going for a spin this evening in lieu of racing? Could do a jolly around the circuit (although I don't know the route that well :rolleyes:) if the rain holds off.

Lusk Doyle · 04-07-2012 10:07am

Hungrycol wrote: »

Anyone going for a spin this evening in lieu of racing? Could do a jolly around the circuit (although I don't know the route that well :rolleyes:) if the rain holds off.

If I get my bike back from the bike shop today then I'll be going out for a blast session. I'd be aiming for hitting the start point of the course for 6:30 - 6:45. I'll post later if I have the bike back and am going.

Beasty · 04-07-2012 10:39am

Lusk Doyle wrote: »

If I get my bike back from the bike shop today then I'll be going out for a blast session. I'd be aiming for hitting the start point of the course for 6:30 - 6:45. I'll post later if I have the bike back and am going.

You do have accreditation for Sundrive remember;) (and I'll put a "special" word in for you with the handicappers if you want

)

Lusk Doyle · 04-07-2012 10:59am

Beasty wrote: »

You do have accreditation for Sundrive remember;) (and I'll put a "special" word in for you with the handicappers if you want )

Yeah - I had forgotten about that!

robs1 · 04-07-2012 1:27pm

robs1 wrote: »

MOD VOICE- The OP and the club have left the name of the Garda involved out of there statement, at this point in time it is not relevant to the discussion and I am advising posters that attempts to identify said member of AGS will be dealt with in the same manner as someone trying to identify an anonymous poster.

The Garda in question identified himself to the club, the club in turn removed his name from discussions with their members, we will be showing the Garda in question the same level of respect regardless of peoples opinion on the matter until such time as his identity comes into the public domain from another source

apologies on that post in no way was i trying to single out any member of the guards. i was trying to make the point that someone's personal option might not be backed up by the guards themselves.

dooverylittle · 09-07-2012 12:13am

Any update? I am really missing the league.

Beasty · 09-07-2012 7:56am

dooverylittle wrote: »

Any update? I am really missing the league.

No update, other than to say the Club is working with the Guards towards a solution which will allow racing to recommence. I don't anticipate it will be this week though (and that's not saying it will be next week either!)

dooverylittle · 09-07-2012 9:55am

ahh, cold turkey.

leeroybrown · 09-07-2012 10:09am

In the absence of an exact copy of the letter (minus any personal details) what's the point of this thread. A few posters have made good suggestions as to how the club should proceed but otherwise there's no basis for any of it other than incomplete information and a slightly misleading opening post.

Lusk Doyle · 09-07-2012 11:48am

leeroybrown wrote: »

In the absence of an exact copy of the letter (minus any personal details) what's the point of this thread. A few posters have made good suggestions as to how the club should proceed but otherwise there's no basis for any of it other than incomplete information and a slightly misleading opening post.

Care to explain how/why you have come to that conclusion? If you don't like it then don't contribute to or read the thread.

Swords Club League suspended

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