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Latvian Referendum

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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,763 ✭✭✭✭Crann na Beatha


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 137 ✭✭RimaNTSS


    As a side note, the most racist people I have ever met on a whole are Latvians. They Hate Russians, for being Russian.
    Interesting finish of 9-page discussion. Roger, out.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,078 ✭✭✭pcardin


    born2bwild wrote: »
    So, the Latvians rejected Russian as a second official language.

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0219/latvia.html

    And?

    Whichever way you look at this I think they were wrong:

    From the left: This is unfair and unjust because those who do not have proficiency in Latvian are not given full Latvian citizenship. 1/3 of the population is Russian while almost everyone speaks Russian. The situation is akin to Switzerland deciding that its French speakers or Italian speakers are not entitled to full citizenship.

    From the right: Many Russian speakers have had to leave Latvia on Aliens Passports because doors are shut in their faces in employment, education, services. They often end up here working in low paid jobs or sitting on the dole.

    Don't get me wrong, I think that foreigners are welcome here - all of them (if they're willing to work) - I threw the argument from the right in because I think it illustrates not only how this decision is vindictive and unjust but also how thoroughly irresponsible it is for a member state of the EU to pass laws like this.

    A santīms/копейк for your thoughts???

    You obviously are Russian or just fool. Either way you really need to get your facts right. Best option would be to send you over to spend few years there and then come back and post again. I'm quite sure your opinion will change upside down.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,078 ✭✭✭pcardin


    born2bwild wrote: »
    Quick question for any Latvians on here:

    The referendum was defeated 76-24.

    Were the second-class citizens allowed to vote?

    Citizens were allowed to vote as one said before. Cut the propoganda. :mad:


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,078 ✭✭✭pcardin


    The Russians suffered under the USSR Just as the Germans suffered under Hitler, In fact more Russians died and suffered because of USSR policies than Latvians did. USSR does not equal Russians. USSR was made up of 15 soviet republics. Stalin was not Russian by the way. USSR brought Latvia into the 20th century. Alot of USSR funding was pumped into developing Latvia, an unfair proportion in comparison to the treatment other soviet Republics got, despite this many Latvians supported Hitler.
    You cannot judge Russians on the USSR just as you cannot judge Germans on the Nazi's. Russian Latvians deserve to be treated the same as other citizens, Regardless of language.

    As a side note, the most racist people I have ever met on a whole are Latvians. They Hate Russians, for being Russian.

    Bsh1t. Russian occupation throwed whole Eastern Europe 50 years back the wetern Europe. Get your facts right.
    So what you are suggesting is that Russians can put a big poo on everything in Latvia, disregard their values, continue their hate against Latvians, put ZERO effort of obtaining Latvian Citizenship and Latvians should still give them a passport. :D Get real! :D

    And for Irish here that are on the side of Russians. Don't get fooled by few proactive russian posters here. And for those who think EU should have said their word, this question was widley discussed in Strasbourg and Russian as second language was laughed out by other EU member states. France I think was one of first to object this to happen.
    And at the end of the day never forget that language question is each country own problem and no other country can or should get involved. Latvian is and will be only official language in Republic of Latvia. Get over it!


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,088 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    I think it's too soon since independence for Latvia to allow Russian as a second language. It's inevitable though, the minority are not going away.

    The only way forward is together with equal rights for everyone, while they are still calling each other 'nazi sympathisers' and 'imperialist occupiers' they will get nowhere. The old scores are still (for some people) needing to be settled.

    On a human rights issue though, it is outrageous that they have the 'alien' situation. To have an elderly Russian speaking Latvian woman humiliated when she tries to communicate with the electricity suppliers (they shout in Latvian at her and refuse to speak Russian, which is her only language and which they can speak) is disgraceful. The same woman voted for independence and that is how she is treated in the country she was born in.

    Latvia is still looking backwards and will be going nowhere in the next decades unless they change that.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,088 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    fando wrote: »
    Foreigners (including all residents without citizenship) can't vote in Ireland, so how's that different from Latvia.

    That's not true. Many 'foreigners' can and do vote in ireland, in many types of elections.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,078 ✭✭✭pcardin


    Piglet1984 wrote: »
    Anyway, as we are just re-hashing what has already been said, I'm just gonna log out.

    I hope that even though you support Russian as the 2nd language, you can also see the side of Latvians who do not agree with you.

    Oh jayzz, just noticed who's the moderator here and where he stands. So thanks but for that reason I'm out. :pac:

    And for Irish here, I could give you a loads of information how this was viewed by Russians in Russia but unfortunately it's all in russian so we will leave it here.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,512 ✭✭✭Ellis Dee


    spurious wrote: »
    I think it's too soon since independence for Latvia to allow Russian as a second language. It's inevitable though, the minority are not going away.

    The Baltic States' own languages and cultures were under terrible pressure during the Soviet occupation and it is understandable that they give priority to strengthening them, also in view of especially the threat from English, the Internet, pop culture and so on. For the moment, it is probably enough to leave it to businesses to provide services in Russian. In Estonia, for example, virtually all product labels are in Russian as well as Estonian. Many people remember the days, not so long ago, when it was "Speak Russian or else ..."
    spurious wrote: »
    The only way forward is together with equal rights for everyone, while they are still calling each other 'nazi sympathisers' and 'imperialist occupiers' they will get nowhere. The old scores are still (for some people) needing to be settled.

    Nice sentiment, but far too many Russians are failing to enter into that spirit. Just remember the furore a couple of years ago over the massive and vulgar monument to their dead soldiers that they had erected slap in the middle of a busy intersection in central Tallinn? When the Estonians removed it to a cemetery, where it belonged, there was no end of threats from Russia proper and ethnic Russians in Estonia. There were also major cyber attacks against Estonian IT services. If Russia (and the local ethnic Russians) were to apologise - just once - for their many crimes against the indigenous peoples, reconciliation might come a step closer.
    spurious wrote: »
    On a human rights issue though, it is outrageous that they have the 'alien' situation. To have an elderly Russian speaking Latvian woman humiliated when she tries to communicate with the electricity suppliers (they shout in Latvian at her and refuse to speak Russian, which is her only language and which they can speak) is disgraceful. The same woman voted for independence and that is how she is treated in the country she was born in.

    Such behaviour is unacceptable, but it sounds very like standard practice during the Soviet era. The story is anecdotal, of course, and I'm sure one could find plenty of examples of kindness and courtesy as well - if one looked. Not sure what you mean about the woman voting for independence, though. The Latvians took their independence when the Russians were no longer able to prevent them from doing so. It should also be borne in mind that the ethnic Russians' Interfax movement did its damnedest to prevent the Baltic States becoming independent. Many Estonians, Latvians and Lithuanians see their ethnic Russian minorities as a potentially dangerous fifth column - and it isn't just paranoia.
    spurious wrote: »
    Latvia is still looking backwards and will be going nowhere in the next decades unless they change that.

    Latvia has become something of an economic success story in the past year or so, after its major crisis in 2007/08.

    A good question that is perhaps worth asking is, also, why the two million or so Russians who have emigrated to Israel are not demanding that Russian be given the status of an official language on an equal footing with Hebrew?

    Old Latvian ladies had to speak Russian when they dealt with the authorities. Now, if it is too much to expect an elderly Russian lady to learn Latvian, perhaps the ethnic Russians could arrange some kind of volunteer translation service - staffed by younger people who learn languages quicker - to help out their linguistically challenged fellow-immigrants instead of just complaining and trying to make an issue of everything.:rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,078 ✭✭✭pcardin


    and for those who are on the russian side or do not really understand situation...

    Russia (their representers in EU) wants to push EU to accept Russian languange throughout EU as one of official languages. You think it's ok and EU should grant them that? OK, now think about UK. By numbers and percentage pakistani or indian language should been accepted as second official language. Turkish language of course then should be a second official language in Germany and in Austria....well they should be really aceepting Romanian as second official language by now. Now try please to present officially this in EU parlament and you will get a middle finger and just laughed out of the building. :D

    I'm quite surprised that Irish can not understand this situation or are lost within russian propoganda. You lost your language by not doing that what Latvians just did. Latvians just don't want their language to end up in history books like your's did. And if you agree with russians now one day you'll be having polish language as official third. :mad:


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,956 ✭✭✭Doc Ruby


    pcardin wrote: »
    I'm quite surprised that Irish can not understand this situation are lost within russian propoganda.
    99% of Irish people would understand and sympathise, its just that boards attracts a particularly vocal brand of bolshevik for some reason, heavily indoctrinated shrieks who think the sun shines from a communist Russian posterior.

    Thats not to say that everyone holding a contrary view fits this bill, but eh...


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,956 ✭✭✭Doc Ruby


    Piglet1984 wrote: »
    Latvians have been extremely welcoming to all foreigners and the resources allocated to integration have been huge however all I get back is 'you effin Nazi, Stalin should have killed your grandparents or raped your mother' for not speaking to a non-Latvian in Russian. Charming.
    Ironic too seeing as Russia invaded Latvia under an alliance and cooperation with Nazi Germany.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,088 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    The last few posts underline what I meant - let's start looking forward, people, not back.

    Perhaps it is too soon.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,401 ✭✭✭Seanchai


    spurious wrote: »
    The last few posts underline what I meant - let's start looking forward, people, not back.

    Perhaps it is too soon.

    Yes, as Latvians in Latvia and as Russians in Russia. Otherwise requesting that Latvians "forget the past" while the consequences of that past, namely Russian settlers, demand special colonial/Russian rights in the former colony of Latvia reeks of self-serving hypocrisy on their part.


    "Forgetting the past" cannot be selective.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,763 ✭✭✭✭Crann na Beatha


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,931 ✭✭✭Zab


    Seanchai wrote: »
    Yes, as Latvians in Latvia and as Russians in Russia. Otherwise requesting that Latvians "forget the past" while the consequences of that past, namely Russian settlers, demand special colonial/Russian rights in the former colony of Latvia reeks of self-serving hypocrisy on their part.

    Seriously? I can understand people not wanting Russian as an official language but as I've said the core issue has nothing to do with that. These people should be citizens and that right is not a "special" demand.

    I also think you may misunderstand the phrase "forget the past". It does not mean stop speaking Russian.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,401 ✭✭✭Seanchai


    Zab wrote: »
    Seriously? I can understand people not wanting Russian as an official language but as I've said the core issue has nothing to do with that. These people should be citizens and that right is not a "special" demand.

    I also think you may misunderstand the phrase "forget the past". It does not mean stop speaking Russian.

    1) Why should they be citizens?

    2) What exactly do you understand by "forget the past"? Is it the old colonisers' chestnut of forgetting all the things that suit them/that cast them in a bad light, and remembering all the things that suit them/that they want to hold on to?


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,088 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    Seanchai wrote: »
    1) Why should they be citizens?
    I would imagine because to expect anyone to work for the future of a country they must have a stake in that country's future.
    Seanchai wrote: »
    2) What exactly do you understand by "forget the past"? Is it the old colonisers' chestnut of forgetting all the things that suit them/that cast them in a bad light, and remembering all the things that suit them/that they want to hold on to?

    No, forget the past as in stop constantly harping on about Nazi sympathisers and imperialist Soviet expansion and День Победы and years of occupation and work together for the future of the country.

    Is there anyone of any flavour in Latvia who can do that?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,931 ✭✭✭Zab


    Seanchai wrote: »
    1) Why should they be citizens?

    2) What exactly do you understand by "forget the past"? Is it the old colonisers' chestnut of forgetting all the things that suit them/that cast them in a bad light, and remembering all the things that suit them/that they want to hold on to?

    They should be citizens because they've been living there for at least 21 years, were possibly born there, will probably be living there for the rest of their lives and should have a right to take part in the democratic process. I can certainly understand why this happened to begin with, and how it was hoped that it would sort itself out by now (via naturalization), but the fact is that there are too many people who it's now clear will remain in in this category.

    You're actually the first person to use the phrase "forget the past" in this thread, I was just quoting you. No, it doesn't mean that though.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,336 ✭✭✭wendell borton


    Anywhere from 120,000 to as many as 300,000 Latvians took refuge from the Soviet army by fleeing to Germany and Sweden.[41] Most sources count 200,000 to 250,000 refugees leaving Latvia, with perhaps as many as 80,000 to 100,000 of them recaptured by the Soviets or, during few months immediately after the end of war,[42] returned by the West.[43] The Soviets reoccupied the country in 1944–1945, and further deportations followed as the country was collectivised and Sovieticised.[31]
    On March 25, 1949, 43,000 rural residents ("kulaks") and Latvian patriots ("nationalists") were deported to Siberia in a sweeping Operation Priboi in all three Baltic states, which was carefully planned and approved in Moscow already on January 29, 1949.[44] Between 136,000 and 190,000 Latvians, depending on the sources, were imprisoned, repressed or deported to Soviet concentration camps (the Gulag) in the post war years, from 1945 to 1952.[45] Some managed to escape arrest and joined the partisansI][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed"][COLOR=#0066cc]citation needed[/COLOR][/URL][/I.
    In the post-war period, Latvia was driven to adopt Soviet farming methods. Rural areas were forced into collectivisation.[46] An extensive programme to impose bilingualism was initiated in Latvia, limiting the use of Latvian language in official uses in favor of using Russian as the main language. All of the minority schools (Jewish, Polish, Belorussian, Estonian, Lithuanian) were closed down leaving only two media of instructions in the schools: Latvian and Russian.[47] An influx of labourers, administrators, military personnel and their dependents from Russia and other Soviet republics started. By 1959 about 400,000 persons arrived from other Soviet republics and the ethnic Latvian population had fallen to 62%
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvia


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