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STOVES questions and answers here(see mod note in post 1)

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 25 clonshanny


    Hi Stove Fan,
    My sister in law was thinking of getting a boiler stove to replace her gas heating which she has at the min. She is living in a 3 story house and her dhwc is on the third floor and not directly over where she would be putting the stove. She doesn't have a chimney in the house either so will have to use a twin wall outside stainless steel flu. Her plumber told her that because of where her dhw cylinder is located, it would cost an absolute fortune to plumb in a boiler stove and would be nearly as cheap to put an extension on her house. I thought that once the flow or return pipe had a sufficient pump on it, operated by a stat close to the stove, that it would be fine.

    Any advice on this?? Do you think her plumber is trying to rip her off??


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,081 ✭✭✭Stove Fan


    clonshanny wrote: »
    Hi Stove Fan,
    My sister in law was thinking of getting a boiler stove to replace her gas heating which she has at the min. She is living in a 3 story house and her dhwc is on the third floor and not directly over where she would be putting the stove. She doesn't have a chimney in the house either so will have to use a twin wall outside stainless steel flu. Her plumber told her that because of where her dhw cylinder is located, it would cost an absolute fortune to plumb in a boiler stove and would be nearly as cheap to put an extension on her house. I thought that once the flow or return pipe had a sufficient pump on it, operated by a stat close to the stove, that it would be fine.

    Any advice on this?? Do you think her plumber is trying to rip her off??

    I couldn't really say as the plumber has seen the installation. You say you have gas heating? If this is mains gas this would be cheaper to run than a boiler stove burning wood or smokeless fuel. If it's LPG tank gas then yes the stove would be cheaper to run once the large outlay of the stove installation had paid for itself.

    If it is mains gas I would only advice a non boiler stove as by the time you have bought the stove, flue it could still cost 5k. It would take many years to pay for the stove installation . Even then you would only save the plumbing costs.

    With regards to plumbing the cylinder in on the 3rd floor yes a pump could be used controlled by a cylinder stat providing that if there was a powercut that several upstairs radiators would work on gravity circulation to dissipate the heat from the boiler stove.

    Sorry to be so negative but I have to give you a realistic and balanced view.


    Stove Fan:)


  • Registered Users Posts: 425 ✭✭Surfn


    Stove Fan, can you boil a kettle or suacepan on say the stovax stockton 14hb, the stove i intend to buy, i know it doesnt have a hotplate but was wondering can you still do. if it cant be done what are the reasons for this, thanks in advance


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,472 ✭✭✭creedp


    I have a stove ope in a new build which is 1500mm (H), 1430mm (w) and 690mm deep. When installed the stove will have approx 400mm free on each side and 280mm free at back. I was going to clad the inside of the ope with stone, the prefabricated kind that fits together like a jicsaw. I was wondering if this option would be ok from a heat point of view or should I consider using those skamolex boards to line the inside of ope?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,081 ✭✭✭Stove Fan


    Surfn wrote: »
    Stove Fan, can you boil a kettle or suacepan on say the stovax stockton 14hb, the stove i intend to buy, i know it doesnt have a hotplate but was wondering can you still do. if it cant be done what are the reasons for this, thanks in advance

    Hi:) I wouldnt think it would boil a kettle very well as usually the boiler covers the top as well as the back and sides and takes most of the heat from the fire.

    You can only try but you may be dissapointed?

    Certainly on our integral boilered stoves you wouldn't of been able to.

    Stove Fan:)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,081 ✭✭✭Stove Fan


    creedp wrote: »
    I have a stove ope in a new build which is 1500mm (H), 1430mm (w) and 690mm deep. When installed the stove will have approx 400mm free on each side and 280mm free at back. I was going to clad the inside of the ope with stone, the prefabricated kind that fits together like a jicsaw. I was wondering if this option would be ok from a heat point of view or should I consider using those skamolex boards to line the inside of ope?

    I myself would line it out with skamolex or similar, as the more space there is around the stove the more air can get in to disperse the heat.

    I dont know anything about the stone cladding but it sounds more fiddly and time consuming. So long as they are fireproof and the adhesive is heat proof it should be fine providing you still have 15cm either side of stove and 30cm above.

    Stove Fan:)


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,472 ✭✭✭creedp


    Stove Fan wrote: »
    I myself would line it out with skamolex or similar, as the more space there is around the stove the more air can get in to disperse the heat.

    I dont know anything about the stone cladding but it sounds more fiddly and time consuming. So long as they are fireproof and the adhesive is heat proof it should be fine providing you still have 15cm either side of stove and 30cm above.

    Stove Fan:)


    Thanks Stovefan. I suppose the skamolex boards and stone clad is complete overkill especially from the point of view of cost. Unfortunately the stone has already been decided upon and bought for its looks so unless I now also purchase skamolex boards I will probably have to go ahead with the stone. I agree they are fiddly and time consuming to install but what price beauty?? That's the NB issue!!

    When you say the more space around stove the more air that can get in to disperse heat does this mean that there is less need for the skamolex when the opening is larger, i.e. at least 15cm each side and 30cm above?

    Thanks again


  • Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭Rain_Dog_Brian


    Stove Fan wrote: »
    I myself would line it out with skamolex or similar, as the more space there is around the stove the more air can get in to disperse the heat.

    Stove Fan:)

    Hi Stove Fan,
    Don't know if you noticed my post on Pg 12 re Stove clearance, but as no replies to date can I ask a slightly different question(s):

    -If using Scamolex can I be within 10cm of Stove (sides and top)?
    -Can I just nail/glue the Scamolex to an existing wooden stud/joist that is approx 150mm from stove?

    Thanks,
    Brian


  • Registered Users Posts: 127 ✭✭CashMoney


    Hi Stove Fan,
    Don't know if you noticed my post on Pg 12 re Stove clearance, but as no replies to date can I ask a slightly different question(s):

    -If using Scamolex can I be within 10cm of Stove (sides and top)?
    -Can I just nail/glue the Scamolex to an existing wooden stud/joist that is approx 150mm from stove?

    Thanks,
    Brian

    I would say definitely not. Just because it is non-flammable, doesn't mean heat can't pass through it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,081 ✭✭✭Stove Fan


    creedp wrote: »
    Thanks Stovefan. I suppose the skamolex boards and stone clad is complete overkill especially from the point of view of cost. Unfortunately the stone has already been decided upon and bought for its looks so unless I now also purchase skamolex boards I will probably have to go ahead with the stone. I agree they are fiddly and time consuming to install but what price beauty?? That's the NB issue!!

    When you say the more space around stove the more air that can get in to disperse heat does this mean that there is less need for the skamolex when the opening is larger, i.e. at least 15cm each side and 30cm above?

    Thanks again

    People generally use the scamolex when they have knocked out the fireplace opening to create a quick and neat smooth finish internally rather than render the inside which may crack with the heat.
    If you are using stone cladding though I would stick the stone to the blocks or a render backround if the interior is uneven and not use scamolex.

    Stove Fan:)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,081 ✭✭✭Stove Fan


    Hi Stove Fan,
    Don't know if you noticed my post on Pg 12 re Stove clearance, but as no replies to date can I ask a slightly different question(s):

    -If using Scamolex can I be within 10cm of Stove (sides and top)?
    -Can I just nail/glue the Scamolex to an existing wooden stud/joist that is approx 150mm from stove?

    Thanks,
    Brian

    As said cladding anything combustible is a definate no-no.

    You can glue or screw it down but not to anything flammable.

    The stove installation instructions will have minimum clearance distances to wooden or combustible items. What stove is it? Any pic of the fireplace?

    I gather this fire is being inset into an opening? Any timber studs or any other combustible materials would need to be removed. If you are building a fake chimney breast make it using a metal rail walling system and clad it in scamolex or vermiculite board. The opening size would still need to be the size below for building regs. If you opening is more narrow buy a smaller stove.

    The opening width has to have clearance of 150mm either side of the stove and 300mm above for building regs, this only applies to openings that are masonry built or built using inflammable materials.

    Stove Fan:)


  • Registered Users Posts: 127 ✭✭CashMoney


    Stove Fan wrote: »
    As said cladding anything combustible is a definate no-no.

    You can glue or screw it down but not to anything flammable.

    The stove installation instructions will have minimum clearance distances to wooden or combustible items. What stove is it? Any pic of the fireplace?

    I gather this fire is being inset into an opening? Any timber studs or any other combustible materials would need to be removed. If you are building a fake chimney breast make it using a metal rail walling system and clad it in scamolex or vermiculite board. The opening size would still need to be the size below for building regs. If you opening is more narrow buy a smaller stove.

    The opening width has to have clearance of 150mm either side of the stove and 300mm above for building regs, this only applies to openings that are masonry built or built using inflammable materials.

    Stove Fan:)

    Isn't inflammable and flammable the same thing? Surely you mean non-flammable.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5 kevfal0


    Hi,
    i am just about to remove my 5 year old Aarrow TF90b stove because it started leaking from the boiler and was wondering if anyone could recommend any good alternatives that have the same output. I will not buy another one of these because i believe they are badly designed with too many "ash traps" inside. Suggestions please

    thanks


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,081 ✭✭✭Stove Fan


    CashMoney wrote: »
    Isn't inflammable and flammable the same thing? Surely you mean non-flammable.

    Typo, it should of said non flammable:rolleyes: flammable and inflammable do mean the same ie not fireproof.

    Stove Fan:)


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,081 ✭✭✭Stove Fan


    kevfal0 wrote: »
    Hi,
    i am just about to remove my 5 year old Aarrow TF90b stove because it started leaking from the boiler and was wondering if anyone could recommend any good alternatives that have the same output. I will not buy another one of these because i believe they are badly designed with too many "ash traps" inside. Suggestions please

    thanks


    Hi:) Sorry to hear this but I have heard that it can happen with any boiler stove. Especially if the boiler is undersized or there isn't no pipe stat to control the pump so gets plenty of condensation inside the stove on the surface of the boiler:(.

    Unfortunately arrow TF90 is the largest boiler stove that I know. Do you know your total heating load as it may be possible to buy a lower output boiler stove thats a different manufacturer.

    There is the broseley hercules 30B 8kw to room though. The TF90 was 4.5kw 8inch flue on the broseley.
    http://www.broseleyfires.com/Multifuel-Stoves/Hercules-30B_Boiler-Stove.html

    Stove Fan:)


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,331 ✭✭✭avfc1874


    hi we're getting a boiler stove and was wondering how much bigger should the hearth be then the legs of the boiler front and sides thanks


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,081 ✭✭✭Stove Fan


    avfc1874 wrote: »
    hi we're getting a boiler stove and was wondering how much bigger should the hearth be then the legs of the boiler front and sides thanks

    150mm either side of the stove and 300mm infront is the building regs standard size.

    Stove Fan:)


  • Registered Users Posts: 25 clonshanny


    Stove Fan wrote: »
    I couldn't really say as the plumber has seen the installation. You say you have gas heating? If this is mains gas this would be cheaper to run than a boiler stove burning wood or smokeless fuel. If it's LPG tank gas then yes the stove would be cheaper to run once the large outlay of the stove installation had paid for itself.

    If it is mains gas I would only advice a non boiler stove as by the time you have bought the stove, flue it could still cost 5k. It would take many years to pay for the stove installation . Even then you would only save the plumbing costs.

    With regards to plumbing the cylinder in on the 3rd floor yes a pump could be used controlled by a cylinder stat providing that if there was a powercut that several upstairs radiators would work on gravity circulation to dissipate the heat from the boiler stove.

    Sorry to be so negative but I have to give you a realistic and balanced view.


    Stove Fan:)


    Thanks Stove Fan.
    Considering the price of copper and what it would cost to plumb the thing, it's probably easier and wiser to go for the non boiler model and just use the mains gas to heat the upstairs rads.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5 kevfal0


    thanks Stove Fan
    I have a pipe stat installed about 2 foot away from the output of the stove. this is not the only issue i had with the stove. the side supports inside also are rotten - think because of ash left sitting around the "toblerone" bars. The grate probably needs to be cleaned out thoroughly each week but to do this you would need to pull everthing that's inside of it out - poor design imo. I will know for again what ashes can do if not cleaned out daily.

    I am looking at the Glenmore 30kw and Blacksmith furnace 30kw at the minute - have you any experience with these and how do they compare with the TF90b

    thanks again


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,081 ✭✭✭Stove Fan


    kevfal0 wrote: »
    thanks Stove Fan
    I have a pipe stat installed about 2 foot away from the output of the stove. this is not the only issue i had with the stove. the side supports inside also are rotten - think because of ash left sitting around the "toblerone" bars. The grate probably needs to be cleaned out thoroughly each week but to do this you would need to pull everthing that's inside of it out - poor design imo. I will know for again what ashes can do if not cleaned out daily.

    I am looking at the Glenmore 30kw and Blacksmith furnace 30kw at the minute - have you any experience with these and how do they compare with the TF90b

    thanks again

    Hi:) I don't have any direct feedback but from viewing the photo and specs they are very much the same although both boilers 2kw less powerfull. Although I prefer the looks of theGlenmore. It looks very solid. The outputs are the same for each. The only real differences between these two stoves and your TF90 is that your TF90 only produced up to 4.5kw to the room and these two new stoves produce 8.5kw. If you think your room can take this heat then this is ok but otherwise it could be too hot so only have a smaller fire and so not enough of a fire going to heat all of the rads.

    The other difference was the flue sizes. Your TF90 is 150mm and so is the same size as the Furnace. The Glenmore is a larger flue size 7 inches.

    It really depends if your flue has a stainless steel liner already installed in 150mm as then you would be best to buy a stove with a 150mm flue outlet.

    If it's a clay lined chimney though and were fitting the glenmore you would still need to replace the 6 inch flue pipes to the larger 7 inch size to the clay liner.

    Stove Fan:)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭Rain_Dog_Brian


    Stove Fan wrote: »
    As said cladding anything combustible is a definate no-no.

    You can glue or screw it down but not to anything flammable.

    The stove installation instructions will have minimum clearance distances to wooden or combustible items. What stove is it? Any pic of the fireplace?

    I gather this fire is being inset into an opening? Any timber studs or any other combustible materials would need to be removed. If you are building a fake chimney breast make it using a metal rail walling system and clad it in scamolex or vermiculite board. The opening size would still need to be the size below for building regs. If you opening is more narrow buy a smaller stove.

    The opening width has to have clearance of 150mm either side of the stove and 300mm above for building regs, this only applies to openings that are masonry built or built using inflammable materials.

    Stove Fan:)


    Thanks Stove Fan.
    Photos attached if you wouldn't mind having a look.
    Following the original photo, the builder built a block support behind the metal support pole for structural support. Then he put up pink Fireboard around the main brick chimney breast using timber studs for certain areas. You can see the timber on the third photo, up sides and across top of recess.

    The Vega 100 (Penman collection) 5kW non-boiler multi fuel stove is ordered but I don't have installation guide yet but want to have place ready for installation.

    Considering:
    -Take wood studs out
    -For recess, stick Scamolex board to LHS Block, back concrete, RHS bricks

    -But I don't know whether I can keep the pink fireboard on my chimney breast, all the way to the recess, and if so how to afix fireboard to the edge of the recess...

    Grateful for any better options.
    Brian


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,939 ✭✭✭goat2


    i am on the lookout for a stove with a boiler that can carry four radiators, two of then small double, one big and one medium double, what stove should i be looking at


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,081 ✭✭✭Stove Fan


    goat2 wrote: »
    i am on the lookout for a stove with a boiler that can carry four radiators, two of then small double, one big and one medium double, what stove should i be looking at

    Could you give me the measurements of the rads please:)

    The room size where the stove is to be installed? Insulation levels?

    On the stove purchase costs what is your budget?

    Has it got to fit inside a certain opening?

    Stove Fan:)


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,081 ✭✭✭Stove Fan


    Thanks Stove Fan.
    Photos attached if you wouldn't mind having a look.
    Following the original photo, the builder built a block support behind the metal support pole for structural support. Then he put up pink Fireboard around the main brick chimney breast using timber studs for certain areas. You can see the timber on the third photo, up sides and across top of recess.

    The Vega 100 (Penman collection) 5kW non-boiler multi fuel stove is ordered but I don't have installation guide yet but want to have place ready for installation.

    Considering:
    -Take wood studs out
    -For recess, stick Scamolex board to LHS Block, back concrete, RHS bricks

    -But I don't know whether I can keep the pink fireboard on my chimney breast, all the way to the recess, and if so how to afix fireboard to the edge of the recess...

    Grateful for any better options.
    Brian

    Hi, what your builder has done is a fire hazard:eek: As you have mentioned is to remove all the timber and pink plasterboard from the fireplace back to the bare brick/ block and then render and skim the front face of the chimney and side and then cut scamolex to line the inside and glue it to the wall with suitable adhesive.

    If you don't want to use scamolex you could get a plasterer to render and plaster the inside as well. The render inside could crack with the heat but its cheaper than buying scamolex.

    I suggest to get a plasterer in to render and plaster it out after removing the timber and pink plasterboard.

    Is the wall on the right of the picture a solid or hollow wall?

    I liked the old stove:) I bet it was rather hot in there.

    Stove Fan:)


  • Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭Rain_Dog_Brian


    Thanks for clear advice StoveFan.
    You must have some patience to put up with amateurs panicking here about your area of expertise. If there was a donate button, I would.

    Surprised that all my pink fireboard has to go as it was a HETAC installer who advised me to line chimney breast with pink fireboard and then call him for stove installation. In fairness he never mentioned wooden studs.

    Only lit the old stove once, and if you think the current situation is a fire hazard, you should have seen the wooden trim around the old stove!!

    THe wall on the right is partition hollow wall. What's my next problem? (hearth touching? i thought it was far enough away from stove :()


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,472 ✭✭✭creedp


    Stove Fan wrote: »
    Hi:) The only models that charnwood do with the external air kit are the Cove and Island Range. Their boiler stoves cant have this feature.

    See:
    http://www.charnwood.com/range/stove/charnwood-external-air-manifold.aspx

    I will see if there are others:)

    Stove Fan:)


    Q for Stovefan again Im afraid. I was seriously looking at a Vision 500 with external air and flexible flue, etc, etc. I thought we were both agreed on this but now my wife went to see a guy about a granite hearth and he was also Charwood supplier and is now very interested in the Island 8kw stove. It is slightly cheaper that the Clearview but the guy is insisting that the flexi flue is a waste of time in a new clay lined chimney so all in all the Charnwood is looking good value. My simple Q is ,of 2 stoves mentioned which one would you prefer and I know this has been done to death but in a new internal clay lined chimney that is approx 5m high (single story room) would not going with a flexi liner be a bad idea. Also the Island has a double door which I thought was bad for air tightness and I want a stove that is as airtight as possible. Does the Clearview trump the Island on this front??

    Again I was pretty well sold on the clearview with flexi but I am in danger of being usurped because of a good value granite hearth.

    Advice greatly appreciated!!


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,081 ✭✭✭Stove Fan


    Thanks for clear advice StoveFan.
    You must have some patience to put up with amateurs panicking here about your area of expertise. If there was a donate button, I would.

    Surprised that all my pink fireboard has to go as it was a HETAC installer who advised me to line chimney breast with pink fireboard and then call him for stove installation. In fairness he never mentioned wooden studs.

    Only lit the old stove once, and if you think the current situation is a fire hazard, you should have seen the wooden trim around the old stove!!

    THe wall on the right is partition hollow wall. What's my next problem? (hearth touching? i thought it was far enough away from stove :()

    Hi thanks for the kind comments:D As far as I am aware the pink plasterboard isn't totally fire retardant. I think it's only designed to stop the spread of flames for 30 minutes. I would get some further advice from a stove installer/ fireplace shop. I have seen it in builders merchants and it still seems coated in paper?
    The wall should not be an issue so long as the stove is the correct distance away as stated in the stoves installation instructions.

    Stove Fan:)


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,081 ✭✭✭Stove Fan


    creedp wrote: »
    Q for Stovefan again Im afraid. I was seriously looking at a Vision 500 with external air and flexible flue, etc, etc. I thought we were both agreed on this but now my wife went to see a guy about a granite hearth and he was also Charwood supplier and is now very interested in the Island 8kw stove. It is slightly cheaper that the Clearview but the guy is insisting that the flexi flue is a waste of time in a new clay lined chimney so all in all the Charnwood is looking good value. My simple Q is ,of 2 stoves mentioned which one would you prefer and I know this has been done to death but in a new internal clay lined chimney that is approx 5m high (single story room) would not going with a flexi liner be a bad idea. Also the Island has a double door which I thought was bad for air tightness and I want a stove that is as airtight as possible. Does the Clearview trump the Island on this front??

    Again I was pretty well sold on the clearview with flexi but I am in danger of being usurped because of a good value granite hearth.

    Advice greatly appreciated!!

    The vision and charnwood are both excellent stoves. The island is one of charnwoods premium range and is excellent. It's really deciding on the one you like most and fits your fireplace best.

    As your chimney is only 5m heigh I would line it as it's a better job and makes cleaning the chimney easy. The problems with joining the stove flue pipe to a clay lined chimney is if the clay adapter can't seal you could get tarry condensation running down onto the stove. Fitting a liner avoids this problem. I would think the liner would be around 50 euro a metre. I would think fitting would take anywhere from 30mins to a few hours labour if the flue is straight.

    www.whatstove.co.uk (The website seems down at the moment)

    Here is a charnwood island alight. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eR9ODEnNf0
    Stove Fan:)


  • Registered Users Posts: 19 LovelyHurlin


    Great thread, which I have gleaned tons of information off...so to start off, thanks to everyone!

    I am in the middle of researching which stove to get. I am looking for:
    - Non-boiler, multifuel stove, around 8-9kw output, traditional enough design. The room is a 50 sq metre open plan kitchen/dining/living area. It's a new extension that is well insulated. Ceilings averaging about 2.5metres.

    I have spoken to alot of different stove suppliers. The problem with alot of thes suppliers, I found, is that they act as agents to particular brands so their advice isn't exactly impartial!

    To cut to the chase, I have gotten prices for the following models, all coming in at around €1250 delivered (not including flu or fitting).

    Nestor Martin Harmony I
    Stanford 80
    Charnwood Country 8
    Stovax Stockton 8

    Any advice on the pros/cons for these models? I have checked whatstove.co.uk, but I was hoping for some first hand experience that anyone might have :)

    I know some of these models are cast iron and some are steel, does this make a big difference durability/quality?

    Thanks in advance,

    LH.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,472 ✭✭✭creedp


    Stove Fan wrote: »
    The vision and charnwood are both excellent stoves. The island is one of charnwoods premium range and is excellent. It's really deciding on the one you like most and fits your fireplace best.

    As your chimney is only 5m heigh I would line it as it's a better job and makes cleaning the chimney easy. The problems with joining the stove flue pipe to a clay lined chimney is if the clay adapter can't seal you could get tarry condensation running down onto the stove. Fitting a liner avoids this problem. I would think the liner would be around 50 euro a metre. I would think fitting would take anywhere from 30mins to a few hours labour if the flue is straight.

    www.whatstove.co.uk (The website seems down at the moment)

    Here is a charnwood island alight. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eR9ODEnNf0
    Stove Fan:)

    Thanks Stovefan


    That's the issue, Im not totally concerned with the look and consider the Clearview an efficient stove thats also a nice stove. However, the Charnwood Island II is considerd a better looking stove and the retailer made a big sales pitch about the grate which can be adjusted from wood to multi-fuel with a simple lever and also this allows any ash to fall into an ash pan which can be simply removed for disposal of ash without opening the stove. This was a real selling point.

    My big Q again is which of the 2 stoves is more airtight/sealed to the room. Also how does the Island II compare to the country 8, the latter seems to be a littled bit more efficient at around 80% compared to the Island II at 78% - I know what's the difference!!

    On the lining issue I've almost given up arguing. I would install and the quoted cost for the materials including all clamps/backfill is approx €500. Then of course there is the fitting- that quote offerred a full fitting services for another €400 whereas the builder said he would just fit the stove for no extra cost - he is not too enthuastic about the flexible flue. However, he is the guy that put a 45deg bend in the flue about 0.5m above flue end and insisted anyone who argued a straight flue was better simply didn't know what they were talking about!


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