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Only 3,200 graduates apply for €30,000 state jobs

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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,277 ✭✭✭x43r0


    Skopzz wrote: »
    EUR30,000 is a GREAT salary.

    I'm applying for one of these jobs. Anyone who expects more than 30,000 EUR is living in a fantasy world.

    Typical of Irish people: greedy and unrealistic.


    What about those who aspire for more than that?

    You're worth as much as someone will pay you


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    Ya I noticed...what does it have to do with my comment? All public sector jobs have to be advertised, many require you to sit competitive examinations, interviews etc. If I was a business owner in the private sector I could hire my son, daughter, wife, niece, nephew without a problem. I wouldn't have to advertise the jobs or hold interviews. I can think of at least 5 people I went to college with working in family businesses. You can't do that in the public sector.[/QU

    And that's fair enough in the private sector, after all if they hire someone who can't do their job properly it's their own lookout and it'll cost them money. Their money.
    In the public sector it's public money their using so nepotism should never be tolerated, but all you have to do is look at the ministers after the garda drivers were taken away from them, nearly all took on family members as their new drivers.
    From the top down, public life in Ireland is corrupt.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    Skopzz wrote: »
    EUR30,000 is a GREAT salary.

    I'm applying for one of these jobs. Anyone who expects more than 30,000 EUR is living in a fantasy world.

    Typical of Irish people: greedy and unrealistic.

    Are you single and living at home with the parents?
    If you had a mortgage, a wife and a couple of kids and maybe a car to run
    €30,000, before tax wouldn't be much use to you. After tax it's around €500 a week.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,302 ✭✭✭JohnMearsheimer


    x43r0 wrote: »
    What about those who aspire for more than that?

    You're worth as much as someone will pay you

    I think €30,000 is fine for someone just starting out. If you aspire for more, look for a job that pays more.
    gerryo777 wrote: »
    And that's fair enough in the private sector, after all if they hire someone who can't do their job properly it's their own lookout and it'll cost them money. Their money.
    In the public sector it's public money their using so nepotism should never be tolerated, but all you have to do is look at the ministers after the garda drivers were taken away from them, nearly all took on family members as their new drivers.
    From the top down, public life in Ireland is corrupt.

    I agree, if Ministers are doing this it should be stopped. I was talking about more traditional jobs in government departments and public sector organisations. I never once came across lobbying in the courts.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,326 ✭✭✭Farmer Pudsey


    Skopzz wrote: »
    EUR30,000 is a GREAT salary.

    I'm applying for one of these jobs. Anyone who expects more than 30,000 EUR is living in a fantasy world.

    Typical of Irish people: greedy and unrealistic.
    Have you a honours degree in Law/ Economics or Accountancy


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    n97 mini wrote: »
    For what reason(s) do you think they wouldn't last 2 days?.

    I have worked in both the public sector and private sector. The bureaucracy involved in the civil service would be very difficult for most private sector workers to handle. But that bureaucracy is needed because rules have to be followed, records have to be kept accurately, decisions have to be referred upwards, procedures are there to ensure that all of the above happens. I am not criticising these - 95% of them are actually needed.

    Not at all like any private sector job.

    n97 mini wrote: »
    You can't have a family run business by definition without hiring family members. But private enterprise are entitled to hire whoever they like as they are accountable only to their owners. The state as a whole owns the public sector.

    So we agree that the private sector has lower standards with regard to nepotism than the public sector and that the private sector is rife with nepotism. Let us hope that the public sector doesn't follow the private sector.


    n97 mini wrote: »
    I went for a job interview a long time ago in a prominent university. I was told unofficially that the position was already filled internally, but to be seen to be doing the right thing they had to interview external candidates.

    My quote which you are referring to stated "the civil service". Universities are not part of the civil service.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    n97 mini wrote: »
    Do these particular people not clock in and clock out?


    No they don't, you will find that most of them work well beyond the 40 hours a week most weeks.

    The ones who cream it on the overtime are mostly front-line grades - gardai, prison officers, nurses, firemen, etc.

    If you go up a couple of other grades higher to the likes of Assistant Secretaries you will find that they don't have a life at all - the pay for them does start above €120,000 though.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    Godge wrote: »
    I have worked in both the public sector and private sector. The bureaucracy involved in the civil service would be very difficult for most private sector workers to handle. But that bureaucracy is needed because rules have to be followed, records have to be kept accurately, decisions have to be referred upwards, procedures are there to ensure that all of the above happens. I am not criticising these - 95% of them are actually needed.

    Not at all like any private sector job.




    So we agree that the private sector has lower standards with regard to nepotism than the public sector and that the private sector is rife with nepotism. Let us hope that the public sector doesn't follow the private sector.


    The private sector pays for the public sector.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    Godge wrote: »
    I have worked in both the public sector and private sector. The bureaucracy involved in the civil service would be very difficult for most private sector workers to handle. But that bureaucracy is needed because rules have to be followed, records have to be kept accurately, decisions have to be referred upwards, procedures are there to ensure that all of the above happens. I am not criticising these - 95% of them are actually needed.

    Not at all like any private sector job.




    So we agree that the private sector has lower standards with regard to nepotism than the public sector and that the private sector is rife with nepotism. Let us hope that the public sector doesn't follow the private sector.


    The private sector pays for the public sector.

    And without it the private sector and everyone else in the country would be screwed.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,158 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    The private sector pays for the public sector.

    And wthout the Public Sector, the Private Sector cannot exist.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,373 ✭✭✭Dr Galen


    Lets not start this Public/Private - Chicken/Egg nonsense again please

    Stick to the OP topic

    Cheers

    DrG


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,135 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    Have you a honours degree in Law/ Economics or Accountancy
    For someone with an honours degree in almost any degree I can think of (medicine or actuary being the two obvious exceptions) that's in their first 2/3 years out of university 30k is a fantastic salary and, as pointed out by those with direct experience of the civil service, it's a starting salary that will go up with service.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,113 ✭✭✭Lumbo


    Sleepy wrote: »
    For someone with an honours degree in almost any degree I can think of (medicine or actuary being the two obvious exceptions) that's in their first 2/3 years out of university 30k is a fantastic salary and, as pointed out by those with direct experience of the civil service, it's a starting salary that will go up with service.

    Do these Graduates actually receive increments?

    We pay our Graduates (mainly Engineers) a scale that depends on their degree results. They don't receive increments.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,277 ✭✭✭x43r0


    Lumbo wrote: »
    Do these Graduates actually receive increments?

    We pay our Graduates (mainly Engineers) a scale that depends on their degree results. They don't receive increments.


    What increments are you referring to? Yearly raises?


    In my company, all graduates start on the same salary regardless of degree grade. They all get bonuses & raises which differ in value depending on performance reviews


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 121 ✭✭Finneen


    They'll get an annual increment if they receive a good PMDS rating.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    Finneen wrote: »
    They'll get an annual increment if they receive a good PMDS rating.

    Last year in the PS/CS only 9 people out of over 300,000 didn't.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    Finneen wrote: »
    They'll get an annual increment if they receive a good PMDS rating.

    Last year in the PS/CS only 9 people out of over 300,000 didn't.

    Obviously good at their jobs and meeting targets then


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,683 ✭✭✭barneystinson


    donalg1 wrote: »
    Obviously good at their jobs and meeting targets then

    :rolleyes:

    Muppetry. Cop on man will ya. It's stupid throwaway comments like that that throw fuel onto the whole Public / Private sector feud on here.

    I don't know if the 9 out of 300k figure is correct, but the simple reality that's plain as the hand in front of your face to anyone working in the PS/CS (I'm in the CS by the way), is that the performance management system isn't working as it's supposed to - people who break their arses every day get a 3, and people who swing the lead get ...... a 3 as well, and from the same manager in plenty of cases. Lunacy. Never mind the fact that a2 is enough to get your increment anyway...

    (And that's not me speaking as someone with an axe to grind - I'm happy with my manager, my colleagues, and my own PMDS score.)


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    I'm happy with my manager, my colleagues, and my own PMDS score.)
    The HR manager (also the union rep) on induction day told us that a refusal to operate the PMDS was the only thing the union and management agreed on, as "it showed up shite staff and shite managers".


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    donalg1 wrote: »
    Obviously good at their jobs and meeting targets then

    :rolleyes:

    Muppetry. Cop on man will ya. It's stupid throwaway comments like that that throw fuel onto the whole Public / Private sector feud on here.

    I don't know if the 9 out of 300k figure is correct, but the simple reality that's plain as the hand in front of your face to anyone working in the PS/CS (I'm in the CS by the way), is that the performance management system isn't working as it's supposed to - people who break their arses every day get a 3, and people who swing the lead get ...... a 3 as well, and from the same manager in plenty of cases. Lunacy. Never mind the fact that a2 is enough to get your increment anyway...

    (And that's not me speaking as someone with an axe to grind - I'm happy with my manager, my colleagues, and my own PMDS score.)

    It was sarcasm sorry hard to get across in text. I know pmds is a load of crap


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,113 ✭✭✭Lumbo


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    Last year in the PS/CS only 9 people out of over 300,000 didn't.

    Wrong.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    Lumbo wrote: »
    Wrong.
    Show me the figures then.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,949 ✭✭✭A Primal Nut


    Graduates with qualifications in human resources, law, accountancy, economics, finance/banking and tax policy were invited to apply.

    These are jobs for skilled professionals. Things are not so bad for people with these kinds of qualifications as you might think.

    The worst hit areas for unemployment are tradesmen, people in the building sector, and unskilled jobs.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,113 ✭✭✭Lumbo


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    Show me the figures then.

    You made the statment. You show me where you got it from. You'll need to prove that you just didn't pluck them from the air.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,885 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    Show me the figures then.

    PMDS does not apply to the entire PS

    Not everyone in the PS is on salary scales

    Of those that are on scales, note everyone gets an increment every year - there is a max point after which you don't get any increments.......and also the last couple of points are usually an increment every 3 years rather than 1

    therefore far less than 300,000 are due an increment in any one year


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,994 ✭✭✭colly10


    Paulzx wrote: »
    Why have so few people applied when we're told day after day that jobs are like hens teeth and public service jobs are cushy, gold plated, sit around all day and scratch your arse etc. etc.

    I left college with a 2.1 in computer science and started on alot less that that. I was offered a few grand more and turned it down, I wanted whatever job offered me the best chance to gain experience.
    If you offered me another 5 grand now to take a job where I sit on my hole surrounded by clueless management I wouldn't be interested


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,069 ✭✭✭relax carry on


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    Finneen wrote: »
    They'll get an annual increment if they receive a good PMDS rating.

    Last year in the PS/CS only 9 people out of over 300,000 didn't.

    I would be interested as to where those figures came from. Could you please provide a link to the PMDS ratings for the entire public sector for 2011? If you can't find 2011, don't worry, any year will do. Thanks.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭Head The Wall


    Riskymove wrote: »
    PMDS does not apply to the entire PS

    Not everyone in the PS is on salary scales

    Of those that are on scales, note everyone gets an increment every year - there is a max point after which you don't get any increments.......and also the last couple of points are usually an increment every 3 years rather than 1

    therefore far less than 300,000 are due an increment in any one year

    It still costs the govt a quarter of a billion every year for increments which is a large sum of money which considering the effectiveness of the PMDS system is pretty much given away for just turning up to work.

    250 million divided between 300,000 is €833 on average. Not everyone gets an increment every year so the average is probably higher than that figure.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,683 ✭✭✭barneystinson


    It still costs the govt a quarter of a billion every year for increments which is a large sum of money which considering the effectiveness of the PMDS system is pretty much given away for just turning up to work.

    250 million divided between 300,000 is €833 on average. Not everyone gets an increment every year so the average is probably higher than that figure.

    Ahhhhhhhhh! It had to be only a matter of time before a thread about anything PS related would be hijacked by someone who just can't resist a rant about increments and/or lump sums... :rolleyes:

    This thread is about the number of people who've applied for AO positions with a starting salary of just under €30k.

    These roles are the PS equivalent of the Graduate recruitment programmes of large private sector organisations, and if you look at the job specs you'll see professional qualifications are the standard. These people are hoped / expected to be the future senior managers in the PS.

    So, the question is, if you don't propose to pay an incremental payscale (subject to performance), how do you suggest the public sector can attract & retain talented people?

    I'd suggest that there'd be a lot less than 3,200 applicants for these positions if the salary was a flat 30k with no prospect of any increase... and the calibre of candidate willing to apply would be much lower. Ever heard of a false economy...


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,683 ✭✭✭barneystinson


    250 million divided between 300,000 is €833 on average. Not everyone gets an increment every year so the average is probably higher than that figure.

    Wow, amazing powers of deduction and mathematical prowess there. The salary scales are all published AFAIK, so there's no secret about how much any increment is.


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