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Fiscal Treaty Megathread [Poll Reset]

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 59 ✭✭GreenLady


    What? you didn't give any preference at all to anyone who got elected? With a single transferable vote system you still couldn't decide one was marginally less evil than another and wasted all those transfers? that's sad. Good thing you don't live in a first past the post or party list electoral system


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    humanji wrote: »
    We get so many people complaining that we don't know what will happen with either voting option, and now you're complaining that some companies are telling you exactly what will happen with them?

    But they're not saying what exactly will happen. It's all very vague.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,976 ✭✭✭✭humanji


    smash wrote: »
    But they're not saying what exactly will happen. It's all very vague.
    What's vague about "If there's a no vote, we won't be expanding in Ireland"?

    Considering the pure cr*p we've had to put up with form both sides of the debate, I find it refreshing that someone, somewhere is actually letting us know on of the consequences of the vote.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,654 ✭✭✭Noreen1


    GreenLady wrote: »
    funny thing but all the opinion polls show that everyone thinks all politicians are evil - except the ones they know personally and trust. And they say they know personally and trust the ones they vote for. Which means that everyone in the Dail has thousands of people who trust them

    I don't trust any of them.
    I wouldn't go so far as to say they are evil - but I don't believe a single word that comes out of any Politicians mouth, for the very simple reason that they will argue the exact opposite, with equal passion, a couple of months later, whenever the original statement no longer fits the party agenda.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    humanji wrote: »
    I find it refreshing that someone, somewhere is actually letting us know on of the consequences of the vote.

    The TV ad is fairly clear. Get our debt ratio down or face financial penalties. Since were not going to get our debt ratio down, I can't see why I'd vote yes.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Noreen1 wrote: »
    I wouldn't go so far as to say they are evil
    :eek:


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,214 ✭✭✭cbyrd


    OK i may be wrong here and correct me if i am ( i did try to mention it before..) If this treaty gets a yes vote then the ESM treaty next march 2013 gets the go ahead yes? Has anyone here actually read the text of that one?? It's like Germany has won WW3 without the guns and bombs..

    Not one of the Board of Directors their staff and the president of the ESF can be investigated prosecuted or in anyway held accountable in a court of law.. Neither are they bound by the laws of prohibition or import of any product as long as it is for ESM/ESF business.
    WTF these guys are in charge of the 700, billion and are completely above the law ?? Who is actually in charge of the EU?? Angela Merkel it seems and who gave her that power?? The German banks were quite as irresponsible as any other during boom times giving out money willy nilly and now are calling it all back forthwith without a f*ck you, you shoulda seen it coming..

    It frightens me how much power we are handing over to the German banks.. and writing it into our constitution? our politicians have sold us out..
    Within 15 days of next march's treaty we have to hand over 20% of the eventual 11.4 billion. . and every year after that on the same day..
    I just can't see how this benefits us as it's not a given that if we apply to the ESM for a bailout there's no guarantee we'll even get it..


  • Registered Users Posts: 43,274 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Noreen1 wrote: »
    I don't trust any of them.
    I wouldn't go so far as to say they are evil - but I don't believe a single word that comes out of any Politicians mouth, for the very simple reason that they will argue the exact opposite, with equal passion, a couple of months later, whenever the original statement no longer fits the party agenda.

    So you don't vote for political parties?

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    squod wrote: »
    The TV ad is fairly clear. Get our debt ratio down or face financial penalties. Since were not going to get our debt ratio down, I can't see why I'd vote yes.

    The Treaty doesn’t allow for fines for countries that break the debt and deficit rules themselves. However if a country ratifies the Treaty but then fails to put the elements required into national law then it can be fined up to 0.1% of GDP. So the fine would be for not putting the rules into national law, rather than for breaking those rules.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    cbyrd wrote: »
    OK i may be wrong here and correct me if i am ( i did try to mention it before..) If this treaty gets a yes vote then the ESM treaty next march 2013 gets the go ahead yes? Has anyone here actually read the text of that one?? It's like Germany has won WW3 without the guns and bombs..
    Incorrect. There is a seperate treaty to set up the ESM.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 43,274 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    cbyrd wrote: »
    OK i may be wrong here and correct me if i am ( i did try to mention it before..) If this treaty gets a yes vote then the ESM treaty next march 2013 gets the go ahead yes? Has anyone here actually read the text of that one?? It's like Germany has won WW3 without the guns and bombs..

    Not one of the Board of Directors their staff and the president of the ESF can be investigated prosecuted or in anyway held accountable in a court of law.. Neither are they bound by the laws of prohibition or import of any product as long as it is for ESM/ESF business.

    Does that mean loads of coke and hookers for the ESM/ESF employees?

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,214 ✭✭✭cbyrd


    dvpower wrote: »
    Incorrect. There is a seperate treaty to set up the ESM.

    Is it not dependent on this one going through? and do the government have to let us vote of it if we vote no to this one?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,214 ✭✭✭cbyrd


    K-9 wrote: »
    Does that mean loads of coke and hookers for the ESM/ESF employees?

    Yes article 36. 4 go read it .. I posted a link ages ago...
    HERE
    http://www.european-council.europa.eu/media/582311/05-tesm2.en12.pdf


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    cbyrd wrote: »
    Is it not dependent on this one going through? and do the government have to let us vote of it if we vote no to this one?

    It isn't dependent on this one going through. Access to the ESM is dependent on this one going through. Setting it up isn't.

    As far as I know there isn't going to be a referendum on the ESM treaty.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    cbyrd wrote: »
    Yes article 36. 4 go read it .. I posted a link ages ago...
    HERE
    http://www.european-council.europa.eu/media/582311/05-tesm2.en12.pdf
    Do they have any vacancies? :pac:


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,214 ✭✭✭cbyrd


    dvpower wrote: »
    It isn't dependent on this one going through. Access to the ESM is dependent on this one going through. Setting it up isn't.

    As far as I know there isn't going to be a referendum on the ESM treaty.

    So it's a given then :eek: Holy crap :eek: has anyone read the text of it?? nightmare stuff . . they'll be a law onto themselves cos they vote in their own head of it too .. that's NUTS :confused:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭woodoo


    So it looks like we get to bail out the banks ourselves with no help and if we vote yes to this treaty we get to put money into a fund that may be used to bail out other EU banks. Laughable :eek:


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,367 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    If the electorate vote no on Thursday will Enda Kenny's leadership of Fine Gael be called into question? His refusal to debate the treaty in the media shows a distinct lack of leadership if the treaty really is in the best interests of the country.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    woodoo wrote: »
    So it looks like we get to bail out the banks ourselves with no help and if we vote yes to this treaty we get to put money into a fund that may be used to bail out other EU banks. Laughable :eek:
    We got loads of funding for the bank bailouts :confused:


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,052 ✭✭✭WallyGUFC


    If you're not fully aware of the consequences of a Yes vote, vote No or don't vote at all. And don't believe anything either side tell you. Only thing for it is read the treaty yourself and come to an informed decision. Sadly, most people havn't a clue and will still vote yes because of fear, political allegiance or because of some stupid generic "it's in our interests to stay in Europe" nonsense. If only boards polls reflected the wider Irish public. Boardsies seem to live in the real world, the rest havn't a clue :(


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    WallyGUFC wrote: »
    If you're not fully aware of the consequences of a Yes vote, vote No or don't vote at all.
    If you're not fully aware of the consequences of a No vote, should you vote Yes or don't vote at all?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,341 ✭✭✭✭Chucky the tree


    WallyGUFC wrote: »
    If you're not fully aware of the consequences of a Yes vote, vote No or don't vote at all. And don't believe anything either side tell you. Only thing for it is read the treaty yourself and come to an informed decision. Sadly, most people havn't a clue and will still vote yes because of fear, political allegiance or because of some stupid generic "it's in our interests to stay in Europe" nonsense. If only boards polls reflected the wider Irish public. Boardsies seem to live in the real world, the rest havn't a clue :(



    The real world where Dylan Haskins is a TD? Thank God I don't live that real world, sounds horrible.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭ilovesleep


    I was reading up briefly about this treaty and a few bits and pieces does not make sense to me.

    With lisbon - no banks should be left behind.
    With this treaty - keep your deficit under control.

    During the 80s recession banks needed bailing out.
    This recession, banks needed bailing out.

    It appears that during a recession banks need bailing out.
    Recessions happen every 20 years or so.

    So lets say for example, the next 10 years we spend trying to climb out from this recession. Then the next 10 we get a good spell of growth or whatever and in 20 years time there is another recession.

    A public spending deficit will always run at times of a recession but saving banks will lead to more money going out leading to a larger deficit.

    Does that make any sense at all?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭ilovesleep


    Something like this would have been beneficial back in 07/08 at the start of the recession. We wouldn't have the large deficit that we would see now today because the government would have been forced to take measures so that a deficit wouldn't spiral out of control and today's deficit problems are due to the fact the FF did feck all when the bust came about. A treaty like this back in 07/08 would have meant that perhaps social welfare at 02/03 sums but we would be in a better position with less debt.

    Not sure how this treaty will help us move forward.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭ilovesleep


    Anyways I think I will be voting no because france and germany didn't even push this treaty.

    Enda Kenny is a muppet and I'll be voting the opposite of what he wants us to vote on. He wants a yes vote so I'm voting no.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,614 ✭✭✭es-cee


    the one thing i have learned, in my time on this planet (and in this country) is that whatever is good for the government, is bad for the working class (i.e. me). enda kenny wont even get into a public debate about this with anyone, which leaves me to believe, he really hasn't a clue what the whole thing is about, and doesn't want to be blamed when it all falls apart, a few months down the line, and the public are pointing fingers. i would never try to influence peoples votes one way or the other, but austerity will hold this country back no end, and i don't want to see that happen.

    it's a no from me, on fiscal.


  • Registered Users Posts: 498 ✭✭Roonbox


    Can anyone tell me if I can vote No to this disaster from abroad? Currently in Canada


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,541 ✭✭✭Smidge


    Roonbox wrote: »
    Can anyone tell me if I can vote No to this disaster from abroad? Currently in Canada

    Tried to post a link from Citizens info but couldn't. AFAIK from this you cannot vote from out side Ireland except in certain circumstances
    Have a look and see if you meet the criteria @ citizensinformation.ie
    :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,654 ✭✭✭Noreen1


    K-9 wrote: »
    So you don't vote for political parties?

    The last twice I voted for the least worst option.
    There is a difference between voting for someone, and trusting them, in any case.

    I tend to listen to what they promise, take it with a shovelful of salt, try to work out what I think they're actually likely to do, and vote accordingly.

    No trust involved.:p:D:D.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,007 ✭✭✭Phill Ewinn


    We'll be crying into our cornflakes if this gets passed, or those who can still afford cornflakes will.


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