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''Islam is a religion of peace'' (debate)

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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    How can an adulterer be a fundamentalist christian?


  • Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    How can an adulterer be a fundamentalist christian?
    You seem to be confusing a fundamentalist Christian with Jesus Christ.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    You seem to be confusing a fundamentalist Christian with Jesus Christ.
    You seem to be confusing a person who strictly adheres to the teachings of their religion with someone who can't even get some of the basics right.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Answering in a poll isn't talking about peace to be fair, anymore than voting in an election is. (IMO at least)

    You understand that answering a poll doesn't do anything, where as voting in election effects the outcome of the election, correct?
    I'm not entirely sure what the above is an example of
    It is an example of Muslims talking about peace but acting differently.
    What percentage of drone attacks - through history - have targetted non-Muslims? I don't believe there have ever been even one.

    Do you mean all drone attacks (unmanned drones have been used since the first world war), or do you mean specifically the modern US predator drones, first used in 1999 in Bosnia?
    These attacks have killed thousands of Muslim civilians, including 160 Muslim children, often from the same families.

    Yes, that is the point. How many of the Muslims who answered your poll vote for a government that is happy to use drone attacks?
    Using your singular example could it be that the evil teachings of religion, specifically Islam is not the motivation for all Islamic terrorism but it is a response to perceived injustice?

    Well it could be and is. A good example is the would-be Times Square bomber in 2010 who was motivated by CIA drone attacks in Pakistan.

    And blowing up Times Square prevents drone attacks in Pakistan how exactly?

    Or was it simply a religious notion of righteous blood thirst that motivated him, he didn't think it would stop anything he just wanted to kill people because he was angered by US military actions, and he believed that his religion justified such actions so he himself was justified in carrying them out?


  • Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Zombrex wrote: »
    You understand that answering a poll doesn't do anything, where as voting in election effects the outcome of the election, correct?
    Likewise answering in a poll effects the outcome of the poll.
    Zombrex wrote: »
    It is an example of Muslims talking about peace but acting differently.
    No it isn't. Voting in an election is not an act of violence. That's an absurd claim.
    Zombrex wrote: »
    Do you mean all drone attacks (unmanned drones have been used since the first world war), or do you mean specifically the modern US predator drones, first used in 1999 in Bosnia?
    To be fair what did you think I meant when I said "attacked" by? Obviously not the toy aeroplanes used in WWI nor any surveillance missions. It was explicit that I meant attacked and by attacked I mean a target struck with a missile/rocket from a drone.

    Are there an examples of any drone attacks against non-Muslims?
    Zombrex wrote: »
    Yes, that is the point. How many of the Muslims who answered your poll vote for a government that is happy to use drone attacks?
    That's a ridiculous question since both participating in elections and voting in polls is confidential.
    Zombrex wrote: »
    And blowing up Times Square prevents drone attacks in Pakistan how exactly?
    I never said it did. I said it was blowback, which it was.
    Zombrex wrote: »
    Or was it simply a religious notion of righteous blood thirst that motivated him, he didn't think it would stop anything he just wanted to kill people because he was angered by US military actions, and he believed that his religion justified such actions so he himself was justified in carrying them out?
    I've already answered that question. His stated motivation, under oath was his outrage at US Foriegn Policy. Specifically CIA drone attacks against Pakistanis. He freely stated this in court.


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  • Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    You seem to be confusing a person who strictly adheres to the teachings of their religion with someone who can't even get some of the basics right.

    That is total nonsense. Are you honestly trying to claim the MLK even get "some of the basics right" of his Baptist faith?

    Your Daily Mail style muckraking proves nothing. This is what I have claimed. I am open to correction please point out anything that is not factual and why.

    1. MLK was a Christian Fundamentalist
    2. MLK was a committed advocate of peace, justice and equality.
    3. MLK gave great efforts to realise peace, justice and equality.
    4. MLK was inspired through his faith to make these great efforts which contributed significantly to to equality and civil rights in the US and had a ripple effect throughout the world.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    That is total nonsense. Are you honestly trying to claim the MLK even get "some of the basics right" of his Baptist faith?

    Your Daily Mail style muckraking proves nothing. This is what I have claimed. I am open to correction please point out anything that is not factual and why.

    1. MLK was a Christian Fundamentalist
    2. MLK was a committed advocate of peace, justice and equality.
    3. MLK gave great efforts to realise peace, justice and equality.
    4. MLK was inspired through his faith to make these great efforts which contributed significantly to to equality and civil rights in the US and had a ripple effect throughout the world.
    The only part I'm talking about is the fundamentalist bit, fundamentalism being the strict adherence to teachings of his religion.

    If cheating on his wife doesn't take away the fundamentalist part, well I guess I'm a fundamentalist vegetarian.

    Just on number 4, would MLK have been so inspired by his faith had he been white?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,847 ✭✭✭HavingCrack



    Are there an examples of any drone attacks against non-Muslims?

    Well the US predator drones were first used during the Bosnian War against Serb positions and were also used against the Serbian army in Kosovo so yes there have been drone attacks against non-Muslims.

    There have also been a small number of unconfirmed reports of drones being used in attacks in Colombia and Mexico but there has been no firm evidence provided for this.


  • Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    The only part I'm talking about is the fundamentalist bit, fundamentalism being the strict adherence to teachings of his religion.

    If cheating on his wife doesn't take away the fundamentalist part, well I guess I'm a fundamentalist vegetarian.
    Commiting sin doesn't make you any less Christian or fundamentalist. What would make you less fundamentalist would be embracing modernist ideas.
    Just on number 4, would MLK have been so inspired by his faith had he been white?
    Well if you accept that it was divine inspiration as he claimed then obviously the colour of his skin wouldn't matter.

    However, you do raise an interesting point. Are you suggesting that MLK could have been motivated by oppression and injustice to take action? That his religious beleifs have nothing to do with it, despite him being religious? That has been my point all along regarding Islamic extremism.


  • Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Well the US predator drones were first used during the Bosnian War against Serb positions and were also used against the Serbian army in Kosovo so yes there have been drone attacks against non-Muslims.
    Yes they were "used" but for surveillance not for search and destroy missions and therefore never "attacked" anyone.
    There have also been a small number of unconfirmed reports of drones being used in attacks in Colombia and Mexico but there has been no firm evidence provided for this.
    Okay, but there are unconfirmed reports of alien abductions. Unconfrimed reports are worthless.

    Which leaves us with 100% of all drone attacks - Somalia, Yemen, Palestine, Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq and Pakistan - targetting Muslims.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,847 ✭✭✭HavingCrack


    Yes they were "used" but for surveillance not for search and destroy missions and therefore never "attacked" anyone.

    Fair enough I always thought they were used for offensive purposes in both Bosnia and Kosovo, after a bit of research it's clear they were the early stage of development. "Offensive" UAV's only came into being in 2000/2001.

    Okay, but there are unconfirmed reports of alien abductions. Unconfrimed reports are worthless.
    Shrug, I agree but I do give some of those reports a bit of creedence. I very much suspect that the US has utilised UAV's in Mexico and Colombia but as you say I await firm evidence.
    Which leaves us with 100% of all drone attacks - Somalia, Yemen, Palestine, Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq and Pakistan - targetting Muslims.

    This isn't as suprising as it appears if you allow me to explain. All US conflicts since the end of Kosovo have involved Muslim states due to the "War" on Terror. Furthermore UAV technology is very new. As far as I am aware the US has not been involved in any war with non-Muslim countries since then so no reason for offensive droens to be used. If the US becomes involved in warfare in non-Muslim areas any time soon expect Predators to be out in force very quickly.

    I haven't had time to research the UAV capabilities of any other state to any great extent. I know Italy, France, UK, Germany, Turkey, possibly Taiwan and Iran and Israel have operational offensive drones.I also firmly suspect China and Russia do. From what I can see only Israel has used them offensively.


    Anyway this is very far off topic so maybe I should just stop there.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    However, you do raise an interesting point. Are you suggesting that MLK could have been motivated by oppression and injustice to take action? That his religious beleifs have nothing to do with it, despite him being religious? That has been my point all along regarding Islamic extremism.

    I'm not saying his religious beliefs had nothing to do with it, just that it was no coincidence that one of the greatest leaders of the civil rights movement was an African-American. Had he been white, I feel confident in assuming his beliefs wouldn't have had such an inspiring effect.


  • Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Had he been white, I feel confident in assuming his beliefs wouldn't have had such an inspiring effect.

    It's impossible to say, especially as they were white religious people who were inspired by their faith to commit to the same cause such as Jonathan Myrick Daniels, a seminarian who was killed for marching before MLK. He wrote on his inspiration/motivation:
    "My soul doth magnify the Lord, and my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour." I had come to Evening Prayer as usual that evening, and as usual I was singing the Magnificat with the special love and reverence I have always felt for Mary's glad song. "He hath showed strength with his arm." As the lovely hymn of the God-bearer continued, I found myself peculiarly alert, suddenly straining toward the decisive, luminous, Spirit-filled "moment" that would, in retrospect, remind me of others--particularly one at Easter three years ago. Then it came. "He hath put down the mighty from their seat, and hath exalted the humble and meek. He hath filled the hungry with good things." I knew then that I must go to Selma. The Virgin's song was to grow more and more dear in the weeks ahead.
    http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bio/228.html


  • Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Fair enough I always thought they were used for offensive purposes in both Bosnia and Kosovo, after a bit of research it's clear they were the early stage of development. "Offensive" UAV's only came into being in 2000/2001.
    So it's now established that drones have only ever attacked Muslims. can you at least imagine how this could be troublesome for Muslims?
    This isn't as suprising as it appears if you allow me to explain. All US conflicts since the end of Kosovo have involved Muslim states due to the "War" on Terror. Furthermore UAV technology is very new. As far as I am aware the US has not been involved in any war with non-Muslim countries since then so no reason for offensive droens to be used. If the US becomes involved in warfare in non-Muslim areas any time soon expect Predators to be out in force very quickly.
    .
    Yes, but it's the "War on Terror" which is targetting Muslims, as we have established that is creating "terrorists" which you seem to exlusively blame on religion.

    For example, Jeremy Scahill visited Yemen for The Nation recently.
    The October drone strike that killed Awlaki’s 16-year-old son, Abdulrahman, a US citizen, and his teenage cousin shocked and enraged Yemenis of all political stripes. “I firmly believe that the [military] operations implemented by the US performed a great service for Al Qaeda, because those operations gave Al Qaeda unprecedented local sympathy,” says Jamal, the Yemeni journalist. The strikes “have recruited thousands.” Yemeni tribesmen, he says, share one common goal with Al Qaeda, “which is revenge against the Americans, because those who were killed are the sons of the tribesmen, and the tribesmen never, ever give up on revenge.” Even senior officials of the Saleh regime recognize the damage the strikes have caused. “People certainly resent these [US] interventions,” Qirbi, the foreign minister and a close Saleh ally, concedes.
    http://www.thenation.com/article/166265/washingtons-war-yemen-backfires


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,847 ✭✭✭HavingCrack


    So it's now established that drones have only ever attacked Muslims. can you at least imagine how this could be troublesome for Muslims?

    Indeed.
    Yes, but it's the "War on Terror" which is targetting Muslims, as we have established that is creating "terrorists" which you seem to exlusively blame on religion.

    If you read my posts I never blamed religion solely for creating Islamic terrorist groups. As you point out the actions of the US are the main cause (90%) for the rise in Islamic based terrorism. Extremism has always been present within all religions but it is only since the 1990's that Islamic terrorist groups have really become prominant. The end of the Cold War and the shifit in geopolitics as a new "enemy" for the US to find probably has the biggest part to play in the upsurge.
    For example, Jeremy Scahill visited Yemen for The Nation recently.

    I agree, US drone attacks have had the opposite affect of what was intended and have driven more Muslims to join extremist groups.


  • Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    It's nice to actually agree with someone in this thread. :D
    I agree, US drone attacks have had the opposite affect of what was intended and have driven more Muslims to join extremist groups.
    It's
    called "Insurgent Math".

    Insurgent Math’ is an arithmetic championed by Gen. Stanley McChrystal, who was the commander of U.S.-led coalition forces in Afghanistan before Obama impressed him into the American army of the unemployed. ‘Insurgent Math’ holds that, “for every innocent person you kill, you create 10 new enemies.”
    http://www.whyweworry.com/2010/07/09/insurgent-math/

    The Times Square Bomber was a result of this insurgent math. He in most regards was living the American Dream. He had a good education, good job, a home, a wife and children. Then the CIA started bombing the land where his family lived in Pakistan - killing civilians, destroying homes and livestock etc. His own utterly corrupt government offered no defense to his tribal kin and he decided that he, himself must offer a form of resistance which was Islamic terrorism. Perceived injustice led him to Jihad. It was not that he was being very, very Muslim.

    Of course he was absolutely wrong, I don't defend him for a second but the motivation is not a million miles away from the huge surge in recruits to the US armed forces in the aftermath of 9/11. Incidentally, Bales the guy who went on a killing spree in Kandahar was one of these recruits.


  • Registered Users Posts: 521 ✭✭✭Voodoo_rasher


    Rottweiler of the Vatican who quoted Islam as being the religion of the sword..)


  • Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Standman wrote: »
    Have you actually watched the debate, or are you comfortable enough continuing your ad hominems on the debaters and insinuating that it's some kind of Zionist conspiracy to make Islam look bad?

    Waddya know, looks like I was right all along.

    As for this pantomine of a debate it reeks of a setup to me.


    A debate on Islam funded by a CFR billionaire, produced by a former employee of Benjamin Netanyahu in the red corner the two aforementioned professional Islam hating propogandists and on the other an "Islamic" think-tank founder from the UK which receives government funding.
    For the motion: Zeba Khan & Maajid Nawaz
    Against the motion: Ayaan Hirsi Ali & Douglas Murray

    You'll need to know this:
    Maajid Nawaz: Co-Founder & Chairman | Quilliam Foundation

    and this:

    EXPOSED: Quilliam leadership directly involved with neocon Douglas Murray’s Henry Jackson Society


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Here around we don't believe in the resurrection.
    This thread was asleep for 640 days let's let it rest in peace.


This discussion has been closed.
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