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Dublin Bus Network Review

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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,483 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Officially it has always served Dublin Airport - it is a pickup point on the route.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 27,501 Mod ✭✭✭✭Posy


    lxflyer wrote: »
    People do want more cross-city services and one can already see more passengers on the 14 for example availing of the cross city penetration. I certainly believe that the increased cross-city penetration is a positive thing offering greater choice to customers.
    I think the cross city services are great, but on at least 20-30 occasions I had to get off a 128 or a 27 in the City Centre after 5/10 minutes sitting on the bus waiting for the other driver to turn up. The 'Sorry folks, just waiting on the next driver who hasn't turned up yet' announcement became so frequent on the 128 I had to switch to another bus route. Having to get two buses anyway just defeats the purpose of a cross city service.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Posy wrote: »
    I think the cross city services are great, but on at least 20-30 occasions I had to get off a 128 or a 27 in the City Centre after 5/10 minutes sitting on the bus waiting for the other driver to turn up. The 'Sorry folks, just waiting on the next driver who hasn't turned up yet' announcement became so frequent on the 128 I had to switch to another bus route. Having to get two buses anyway just defeats the purpose of a cross city service.

    I've always hated the need for a driver change on the 128, among others.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 27,501 Mod ✭✭✭✭Posy


    Karsini wrote: »
    I've always hated the need for a driver change on the 128, among others.
    I had to just get a different bus in the end because I could never estimate how long the journey would be. Getting off on the quays, walking across town, waiting for and getting another bus could take over 15 minutes, and that's too much journey time variation for me. I couldn't face any more 'driver roulette' every morning.
    I wonder will it becoming the 15 make it better or worse.. :confused:


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,189 ✭✭✭howiya


    And if the other driver does turn up the two boys will have a chat while you're waiting to go to your destination


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,538 ✭✭✭Luckycharm


    lxflyer wrote: »
    In fact there was overcapacity on virtually every corridor - why else in certain cases were DB able to in some of those cases able to cut both peak and off-peak frequency on virtually every route? The 19, 19a and 83 for example merged into the 9 and 83 and still seem to be coping very effectively with the loads post-implementation.

    The 145 is still operating at the same frequency (more or less) as before the change but without the long gaps throughout the day that used to occur due to some buses operating via Bray Station and others not. As for being crammed, buses are designed to operate at full capacity last time I checked - or do you want half -empty buses instead? That simply cannot continue.

    There was gross inefficiency with virtually no route having regular fixed interval clockface schedules. At one stage on a Saturday afternoon a 15, 15a and 15b all left Eden Quay together at the same time and then there was a 15 minute gap to the next departure of any variant. Most routes had totally irregular departure patterns. Some routes had excessive running time with buses sitting at termini for over 25 minutes or in one extreme example an hour between departures! That frankly had to change.

    People do want more cross-city services and one can already see more passengers on the 14 for example availing of the cross city penetration. I certainly believe that the increased cross-city penetration is a positive thing offering greater choice to customers.

    The fundamental problem with the implementation has been that in certain cases (by no means all) running times were far too tight, meaning buses did not have sufficient time to get from one terminus to the other meaning knock on effects with later journeys late, curtailed or cancelled. Result? There could be long gaps in service, the advertised timetable has not been delivered, and you have a disaffected customer base. Not good.

    This is something DB have to fix and far more quickly than they have been. Devising new rosters/timetables is a very complex task, but my own view is that if it ain't working they need to move heaven and earth to fix it.

    Great to see the 15 and 15b at their new terminus up in Stocking Av - given the increase in frequency I presume there are new drivers- the old 74/74a need to show the lads where to park up like at the roundabout where there is space which does not block the road. Both buses were nearly parked opposite each other this morning which meant it was pretty hard for cars to get past.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    Luckycharm wrote: »
    Great to see the 15 and 15b at their new terminus up in Stocking Av - given the increase in frequency I presume there are new drivers- the old 74/74a need to show the lads where to park up like at the roundabout where there is space which does not block the road. Both buses were nearly parked opposite each other this morning which meant it was pretty hard for cars to get past.

    Oh come come now Luckycharm....surely you're aware that this and the equally impressive 161 terminus have ben FULLY inspected and approved by the relevant authorities,and in addition recieved final approval from the Gardai..?.....Yes ?....or perhaps it's a cunning plan to make car driving a slower and more fraught process...just as through Ranelagh Village...You just can't keep up with developments these days.....:eek:


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,212 ✭✭✭Jaysoose


    lxflyer wrote: »
    The problem is that the people around Blanchardstown Village asked for more buses to compensate for the reduction in the 39 - that's why the 38a was re-routed.


    Im going to call shenanigans here, the 38 serviced the village and as somebody that regularly commutes from either snugborough and sometimes the village the passenger numbers going from the village are much lower than the old 38a route so it doesnt make any sense at all to take the 38a through the village as the 38 also goes through there.

    The service has been butchered for no reason other than the network direct lads to justify their existence in my opinion. They took a perfectly good functioning service that had the38, 38a, 38c (still dont understand this being removed) going via snugborough and the 39 through the village and replaced it with less buses running less frequently.

    The only place that this can be called improvment is when they are showing some manager in a meeting, the reality for the customer is very different but then we all know the passenger was the furthest thing when these changes were forced through with little or no public consultation.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    Jaysoose wrote: »
    Im going to call shenanigans here, the 38 serviced the village and as somebody that regularly commutes from either snugborough and sometimes the village the passenger numbers going from the village are much lower than the old 38a route so it doesnt make any sense at all to take the 38a through the village as the 38 also goes through there.

    The only place that this can be called improvment is when they are showing some manager in a meeting, the reality for the customer is very different but then we all know the passenger was the furthest thing when these changes were forced through with little or no public consultation.

    Jaysoose,you are close to the bullseye here.

    The Network Direct process was the first large scale attempt by Dublin Bus to introduce major alterations based largely on electronically gathered data.

    A huge amount of highly detailed statistics were presented to Drivers representatives in the early stages of phase one and were of such complexity as to be virtually unchallengable.

    This raft of raw data led to the shambles which was Phase 1 of Network Direct the 46A-10 Merger and the 145 extension,both of which led to a virtual collapse of service in the immediate aftermath of ND's first outing.

    It was only after large scale public outcry that the company were forced to reconsider the situation and take some heed of actuality rather than Laptop based figures.

    This continues to be a problematic area,which one hopes will be resolved by a sensible use of the companys actual resources rather than make-believe ones....;)


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,282 ✭✭✭dublinman1990


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    Jaysoose,you are close to the bullseye here.

    The Network Direct process was the first large scale attempt by Dublin Bus to introduce major alterations based largely on electronically gathered data.

    A huge amount of highly detailed statistics were presented to Drivers representatives in the early stages of phase one and were of such complexity as to be virtually unchallengable.

    This raft of raw data led to the shambles which was Phase 1 of Network Direct the 46A-10 Merger and the 145 extension,both of which led to a virtual collapse of service in the immediate aftermath of ND's first outing.

    It was only after large scale public outcry that the company were forced to reconsider the situation and take some heed of actuality rather than Laptop based figures.

    This continues to be a problematic area,which one hopes will be resolved by a sensible use of the companys actual resources rather than make-believe ones....;)

    So, what you are saying now that a compromise is made with the public, the staff and management at the bus company that is based on the census figures?

    Let's say if that compromise was done on the 15 group. Do you think that it is working well?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,247 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss


    Jaysoose wrote: »
    Im going to call shenanigans here, the 38 serviced the village and as somebody that regularly commutes from either snugborough and sometimes the village the passenger numbers going from the village are much lower than the old 38a route so it doesnt make any sense at all to take the 38a through the village as the 38 also goes through there.

    The service has been butchered for no reason other than the network direct lads to justify their existence in my opinion. They took a perfectly good functioning service that had the38, 38a, 38c (still dont understand this being removed) going via snugborough and the 39 through the village and replaced it with less buses running less frequently.

    There was also probably an element of politicing in the move to run the 38A through the village as a replacement 39.

    Castlecurragh, Warrenstown, Corduff and Waterville would be low voter turnout people, with a large amount of unregister (for voting purposes) foreigners who wouldn't know who to ring or complain to, Those in the area that do vote would tend to be Joe Higgins or Sinn Fein voters, i.e. politicians with no actual power or link to power.
    Whereas the people of Blanchardstown Village and surrounding areas would be more organised, a higher proprtion registered and knowing how things work, and a more traditional centre-ist voting history.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    So, what you are saying now that a compromise is made with the public, the staff and management at the bus company that is based on the census figures?

    Let's say if that compromise was done on the 15 group. Do you think that it is working well?

    Not quite as general as that Dublinman1990,the initial 46A and 145 Network Direct introduction was so spectacularly out-of-kilter that it simply could'nt be operated ...at all...not a hope of it ever succeeding.

    Initially,in the wake of what at times threatened to descend into a Public Order situation,the company attempted to utilise all manner of shore-up's and additions,but none of these could address the serious issues of the basic schedule and running time being wrong...quite simply the hard data did not accurately reflect the actuality on-the-road.

    It was only after a prolonged and fraught period of negotiation that reality insisted on being recognised and new schedules were drawn up to reflect the same reality...and it seems to be working,at least with far less problems than later attempts.

    I have no idea as to what metrics were used re the 15/128 merger but hopefully some form of sense prevailed. ;)


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Registered Users Posts: 715 ✭✭✭littlejp


    I recently moved to Rialto and found out this morning that if I get the 122, it costs me €1.20 to get to Camden St. but if I get the 68, €1.20 only gets me to Leonard's Corner.
    This fare system using stages suits no one but Dublin Bus. Why they don't have a flat fare by now is beyond me.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,483 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    littlejp wrote: »
    I recently moved to Rialto and found out this morning that if I get the 122, it costs me €1.20 to get to Camden St. but if I get the 68, €1.20 only gets me to Leonard's Corner.
    This fare system using stages suits no one but Dublin Bus. Why they don't have a flat fare by now is beyond me.

    I'm afraid you're wrong.

    Fare stages on the 68:

    68 Bulfin Rd.
    69 Dolphin's Barn
    70 South Circular Rd. (Donore Ave.)
    71 South Circular Rd. (Leonard's Corner)
    72 Kelly's Corner (Camden St.)

    Fare Stages on the 122:

    68 Herberton Rd.
    69 Dolphin's Barn
    70 South Circular Rd. (Donore Ave.)
    71 South Circular Rd. (Leonard's Corner)
    72 Kelly's Corner (Camden St.)

    Therefore if you board either route on the South Circular Road in Rialto you are deemed to board at stage 68 (the nearest previous stage). 3 stages from that is Leonard's Corner.

    Camden Street is 4 stages on either route unless you board after Dolphin's Barn Crossroads.


  • Registered Users Posts: 715 ✭✭✭littlejp


    lxflyer wrote: »
    I'm afraid you're wrong.
    All I know is I got on the bus (122) the first time. Asked for Camden St. and was told €1.20.
    Got the bus this morning and said €1.20 and the driver said that would get me to Leonard's Corner.

    My other point stands. The Fare Stages system is crap. It's very confusing and could be replaced with a flat fare.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,113 ✭✭✭✭Dodge


    I'd prefer zones to flat fares

    The stages thing is ridiculous


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,483 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    littlejp wrote: »
    All I know is I got on the bus (122) the first time. Asked for Camden St. and was told €1.20.
    Got the bus this morning and said €1.20 and the driver said that would get me to Leonard's Corner.

    My other point stands. The Fare Stages system is crap. It's very confusing and could be replaced with a flat fare.

    Well luckily for you the 122 driver was also confused - the fare to Camden Street is €1.65, and the 68 driver is correct.

    As posted here before it does not help that stage points are not indicated as such on the actual bus stops themselves.

    A flat fare really is impractical for Dublin given the length of some journeys - it would result in some people paying far more and others far less. It would be far better to have a zonal structure.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,218 ✭✭✭markpb


    lxflyer wrote: »
    A flat fare really is impractical for Dublin given the length of some journeys - it would result in some people paying far more and others far less. It would be far better to have a zonal structure.

    Why is it impractical for Dublin but okay for other, larger cities?

    LA Metro charge a flat fare of $1.50 per trip, with a longest bus route being 43km.
    New York MTA charges a flat fare of $2.25 per trip.
    Paris RATP buses charge a flat fare of €1.70.

    Personally I'd be in favour of a two zone system (inside and outside the M50) but flat fares have a lot going for them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,483 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    It's impractical either due to the farebox revenue shortfall that would result from longer journeys being cheaper or the flat fare being too expensive for lower fare customers.

    Either way given the fact that the subsidy is falling the company cannot afford a further farebox shortfall.

    Believe me I'd love a flat fare but given the current economic climate I do not think the company could afford the risk of farebox income falling.

    A minimum 2-zone fare structure would be my ideal solution.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,177 ✭✭✭KD345


    It sounds like the driver on the 122 pressed the stage point too early. littlejp's post does highlight the discrepancies in the fare system in that area. For example, why is there a stage point called "Kellys Corner (Camden Street)"? Surely it should read either Harrington Street or Camden Street, there is no stop at Kellys Corner.

    Also, while littlejp's post might be incorrect, there are some fare differences in the Dolphins Barn, Inchicore and Drimnagh area.

    On route 68, it is 7 stages between SCR and College Green, on the 123 it is just 5, even though passengers board at the same bus stops. This continues on the 123 into parts of Drimnagh, where the 122 is more expensive to travel to the city centre than the 123.

    It's cheaper to travel from Hawkins Street to Tyrconnell Road in Inchicore on Route 69 than it is on Route 68. Even though you board and alight at the exact same stops.

    The journey between Dolphin's Barn and Kevin Street (4 stages) is more expensive if you use the 27 or 151. It's only classed as 3 stages on Route 77A, again even boarding at the same stops.

    There are many more examples across the network. The stage system does not work, it's confusing for passengers, confusing for drivers and does not encourage anybody to take a bus in Dublin.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,218 ✭✭✭markpb


    lxflyer wrote: »
    It's impractical either due to the farebox revenue shortfall that would result from longer journeys being cheaper or the flat fare being too expensive for lower fare customers.

    So basically, it's perfect right now and we shouldn't every try to change it? We've reached the pinnacle in customer fairness and maximum farebox revenue.

    Just like using middle doors (works elsewhere but it wouldn't work in Dublin apparently), selling bus-bus transfers on board, selling rail-bus or bus-rail transfers (only one or two routes in the entire city do this), showing timetables with intermediate stop times (works almost everywhere else but not possible in Dublin because we have congestion unlike NYC, Paris or LA), putting route maps online (only happened in 2010), putting audio and visual displays onboard buses, selling tickets at bus stops (other than the airport), etc, etc. The list is endless and everyone is full of reasons why we couldn't even consider them.

    Some day I'll find out why it is that all these things are possible all round the world but are impossible for Dublin Bus.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,483 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    markpb wrote: »
    So basically, it's perfect right now and we shouldn't every try to change it? We've reached the pinnacle in customer fairness and maximum farebox revenue.

    Just like using middle doors (works elsewhere but it wouldn't work in Dublin apparently), selling bus-bus transfers on board, selling rail-bus or bus-rail transfers (only one or two routes in the entire city do this), showing timetables with intermediate stop times (works almost everywhere else but not possible in Dublin because we have congestion unlike NYC, Paris or LA), putting route maps online (only happened in 2010), putting audio and visual displays onboard buses, selling tickets at bus stops (other than the airport), etc, etc. The list is endless and everyone is full of reasons why we couldn't even consider them.

    Some day I'll find out why it is that all these things are possible all round the world but are impossible for Dublin Bus.

    Now you are misrepresenting what I said.

    I didn't say it was perfect by any means nor did I suggest retaining the status quo - in fact I suggested a zonal fare structure would be better. Anything that is simpler than the staged fare system.

    The risk of implementing a flat fare is a drop in farebox revenue and right now the company cannot afford that as that will only mean reductions in services (however desireable it is).


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    littlejp wrote: »
    All I know is I got on the bus (122) the first time. Asked for Camden St. and was told €1.20.
    Got the bus this morning and said €1.20 and the driver said that would get me to Leonard's Corner.

    My other point stands. The Fare Stages system is crap. It's very confusing and could be replaced with a flat fare.

    And so it continues......this is an issue which is going to explode all over thgese boards come Jan 1st as those cash-fare payers who remain unaware of Leap (There are THOUSANDS in this bracket) suddenly find themselves in confrontation with a Busdriver who actually knows his/her stages.

    For example in Littlejp's case the €1.20 he currently pays is incorrect.
    As he/she is boarding between a Stage Point the fare is calculated from the preceeding stage,thus this is a 4 stage fare and it's €1.65.

    Now,fast-forward to Jan 1 and little jp meets a grumpy sod of a Driver who knows it's a 4 stage fare and seks payment of €1.90...cue littlejp being taken-aback and seeking a full & frank explanation from the GSOAD....multiply this scenario by 100,1000,10,000 and you can see TROUBLE.

    ALL because Dublin Bus removed the actual Stage Identification some years back and allowed the process of guesswork,rumour and innuendo to replace it.

    Many of today's Drivers have NEVER seen an actual Stage Marking in their entire career,yet,they ostensibly operate a Fare-Stage system....how ?...Black Magic and guesswork I'd suggest.

    KD345's post underlines the futility of referring to the TimeTable book,currently the only means available to a customer of identifying Stage Points,as it is full of ambiguities and folksy descriptions of premises and places long gone.

    It gets back to the basics...if we cannot start at A,B,C...then there's little point in splitting the Atom on the platform of a 122 ?

    Identify the Fare Stages NOW....not sometime is Q2 2012,after we've lost a few hundred more pasengers due to confrontational issues,and €1.20 going to €1.90 IS just such an issue...believe me ! :eek:


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,212 ✭✭✭Jaysoose


    There was also probably an element of politicing in the move to run the 38A through the village as a replacement 39.

    Castlecurragh, Warrenstown, Corduff and Waterville would be low voter turnout people, with a large amount of unregister (for voting purposes) foreigners who wouldn't know who to ring or complain to, Those in the area that do vote would tend to be Joe Higgins or Sinn Fein voters, i.e. politicians with no actual power or link to power.
    Whereas the people of Blanchardstown Village and surrounding areas would be more organised, a higher proprtion registered and knowing how things work, and a more traditional centre-ist voting history.


    So a bus service that was functioning perfectly well was altered to suit the few people that knew who and where to complain at the expense of the majority. This is pretty much the opposite of improving something, the service has actually declined in this case yet the network direct lads are all sitting around in meetings with deskbound managers talking about how innovative the whole process has been and how great they all are when the customer has less options less frequently.

    Dublin bus is a disgrace.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,218 ✭✭✭markpb


    Castlecurragh, Warrenstown, Corduff and Waterville would be low voter turnout people, with a large amount of unregister (for voting purposes) foreigners who wouldn't know who to ring or complain to
    Jaysoose wrote: »
    So a bus service that was functioning perfectly well was altered to suit the few people that knew who and where to complain at the expense of the majority

    Jesus, there's enough legitimate complaints about ND and DB without having to fantasise and dream up some!


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,483 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Jaysoose wrote: »
    So a bus service that was functioning perfectly well was altered to suit the few people that knew who and where to complain at the expense of the majority. This is pretty much the opposite of improving something, the service has actually declined in this case yet the network direct lads are all sitting around in meetings with deskbound managers talking about how innovative the whole process has been and how great they all are when the customer has less options less frequently.

    Dublin bus is a disgrace.

    How reliable is the 38/a/b now?

    Given you (rightly) complained about it before the timetable has changed you have never posted about it since. Can we take it buses are showing up when they should?


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,247 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss


    markpb wrote: »
    Jesus, there's enough legitimate complaints about ND and DB without having to fantasise and dream up some!

    It has been hinted locally that political power in Blanchardstown ('having a big TD in the area') helped the decision. It may be rubbish, but there has to be an explanation of why X hundred people were (without consulatation) given an improved service at the expense of another X hundred people being given a lesser service.
    lxflyer wrote: »
    How reliable is the 38/a/b now?

    Given you (rightly) complained about it before the timetable has changed you have never posted about it since. Can we take it buses are showing up when they should?

    Reliability is important but its not the only factor. At an extreme level if there was only five 46As a day and they took 3 scheduled hours for the journey they could have 100% timetable reliability but it would be a completely crap service.

    Telling us on the 38A that we now have reliability when it's clearly a hugely inferior service vis a vis what we had up until September 2010 is disengenuous speak at its best.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,483 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Reliability is important but its not the only factor. At an extreme level if there was only five 46As a day and they took 3 scheduled hours for the journey they could have 100% timetable reliability but it would be a completely crap service.

    Telling us on the 38A that we now have reliability when it's clearly a hugely inferior service vis a vis what we had up until September 2010 is disengenuous speak at its best.

    I was simply asking the question?

    Don't bite my head off - I'm not "telling" you anything.

    I just wanted to know if the service was reliable or not since the last timetable change?


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,247 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss


    lxflyer wrote: »
    I was simply asking the question?

    Don't bite my head off - I'm not "telling" you anything.

    I just wanted to know if the service was reliable or not since the last timetable change?

    I basically never get the 38 so can't comment.

    When going into town I try to only use the 38B where possible . It's very reliable though it has suffered with some road works going on in Mulhuddart village which has sent the bulk of traffic through Castlecurragh/Warrenstown causing a jam here, so it probably seems very hit and miss for the likes of Jaysoose in Warrenstown.

    Coming home the odd one 38A seems to go missing completely, but no more than one a month. I'd consider it very reliable and the 'new' Blanch section doesn't add on too much at my time anyway (7PM ish).

    The 38A from Damastown. Its probably reliable as such, it seems to turn up on time when I use it. It is not a good service though, as I've explained in this thread and others it can as little as 5 or 6 minutes or as much as 20+ minutes to do the 'new' Blanch section as the traffic flow, lights and road configuration is against it making speedy progress.

    Personally when my only choice is a 38A on a weekday (i.e., after 8.36AM) I've got into the habit of getting a taxi from Warrenstown to the first busstop after Auburn Avenue. Around €7, then get the first 39A, 70 etc which comes along. The 38A is that bad that I can justify €7 to avoid it.

    Dublin Bus have done a lot right on this route, they are close to having it perfect. Just need to scrap the one mistake.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 551 ✭✭✭meanmachine3


    AlekSmart wrote: »

    ALL because Dublin Bus removed the actual Stage Identification some years back and allowed the process of guesswork,rumour and innuendo to replace it.

    Many of today's Drivers have NEVER seen an actual Stage Marking in their entire career,yet,they ostensibly operate a Fare-Stage system....how ?...Black Magic and guesswork I'd suggest.

    :

    well said alek. the unions have fought for years to get the stages back on the stops but to no avail. for posters reading this i've been marked in on my route for a long time and and i only know about 3/4 of the stages. the rest i haven't got a clue about. if i'm in any doubt i'd rather under charge a passenger a stage or two than over change and get in to a confrontation. and if the case arises which it has once or twice where i've realised my mistake by under charging with the passenger still on board i will point it out to them when they're getting of so they'll know next time.
    the amazing thing about the A.V.L. is it tell you where you are and when in the city centre where your next stop is but it doesn't tell us where the next stage is.
    in this day and age there should be a system where it takes the onus off the driver e.g. a strip on the staged bus stop and when a bus passes it recognizes the bus and route and automatically updates the stages. problem solved.:D


This discussion has been closed.
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