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Is being gay a choice

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    ?

    Sorry, attempt at humour. The one they use on those silly "talent" shows during auditions. When they've heard enough they hit the red button and blast the person off the stage ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,118 ✭✭✭Babybuff


    you could have added rolleyes for extra effect


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    Babybuff wrote: »
    I don't think he/she is implying it is a conscious choice.

    "we all have the capacity to be in a same-sex relationship biologically but psychologically we choose not to. It is down to psychological reasons we choose our partners I believe"


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    Babybuff wrote: »
    you could have added rolleyes for extra effect
    who was that post for?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 25 feckedformocks


    well fair enough, I hadn't intended on getting myself embroiled in such a hot topic but clearly differing views are out there and I'm of the minority at least in this forum!


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,118 ✭✭✭Babybuff


    OldNotWIse wrote: »
    "we all have the capacity to be in a same-sex relationship biologically but psychologically we choose not to. It is down to psychological reasons we choose our partners I believe"
    I don't see the problem with the sentence, unless of course you have no idea what he is talking about.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 332 ✭✭Fire1985


    It's not a choice dumbass. Gay people are born gay.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,118 ✭✭✭Babybuff


    OldNotWIse wrote: »
    who was that post for?
    It was made in the same vein as your post which was intended to mock a pretty fair opinion, backed up with references because it doesn't fit in with your beliefs. Or you haven't grasped the bones of it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    Babybuff wrote: »
    I don't see the problem with the sentence, unless of course you have no idea what he is talking about.

    Troll much?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,118 ✭✭✭Babybuff


    OldNotWIse wrote: »
    Troll much?
    The point has obviously gone over your head.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 25 feckedformocks


    OldNotWIse wrote: »
    "we all have the capacity to be in a same-sex relationship biologically but psychologically we choose not to. It is down to psychological reasons we choose our partners I believe"
    perhaps a dictionary might help?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    Babybuff wrote: »
    It was made in the same vein as your post which was intended to mock a pretty fair opinion, because it doesn't fit in with your beliefs. Or you haven't grasped the bones of it.

    Ouch. So, when you are replying to a post, I think the correct procedure is to press "quote" and then the person knows that you are replying to them.

    I wasn't mocking, like I said, it was an attempt at humour - sorry you didn't find it funny. Incidentally, telling a gay person that they "psychologically chose" to be gay is, in my opinion, a far greater mockery.


  • Registered Users Posts: 984 ✭✭✭ViveLaVie


    I was not implying that heterosexual people are 'just going through the motions in order to be happy' and to just simply 'fit into societal norms'. What I was saying was that we all have the capacity to be in a same-sex relationship biologically but psychologically we choose not to. It is down to psychological reasons we choose our partners I believe.

    Innate bisexuality (or predisposition to bisexuality) is a term introduced by Sigmund Freud (based on work by his associate Wilhelm Fliess), that expounds all humans are born bisexual but through psychological development (which includes both external and internal factors) become monosexual while the bisexuality remains in a latent state.

    Freud is not a reliable source for this. He has been challenged and in general his theories are not taken seriously any more. Freud also said that every boy wants to kill his father and have sex with his mother. His primary source for this? Hamlet. Not any actual empirical evidence. Just because Freud decided to theorise on this doesn't make it factual. I'd like to see some scientific evidence that everyone is bisexually predisposed. I really don't agree that biologically everyone has this capacity. Show me biological proof.

    When you say that psychologically we choose not to engage in bisexual relationships due to societal pressure, you are implying that a lot of heterosexual people choose to be solely inclined towards heterosexuality in order to fit into societal norms. I don't know what your stance is on the motivations behind homosexuality in this case is. If societal pressure prevents someone being psychologically able to engage in bisexuality then what prevents a homosexual from doing so? I do not think my sexual orientation should be considered less valid (in the sense that is potentially motivated due to societal pressure) than a bisexual's and nor do I think homosexual people would be happy with this either.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,118 ✭✭✭Babybuff


    OldNotWIse wrote: »
    Ouch. So, when you are replying to a post, I think the correct procedure is to press "quote" and then the person knows that you are replying to them.

    I wasn't mocking, like I said, it was an attempt at humour - sorry you didn't find it funny. Incidentally, telling a gay person that they "psychologically chose" to eb gay is, in my opinion, a far greater mockery.
    in your case it's hit the "report post" function.
    If you have an issue with the post, I suggest you report it. Or maybe you could help yourself by opening your mind up to understanding what it means.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    Babybuff wrote: »
    The point has obviously gone over your head.


    Obviously :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    perhaps a dictionary might help?
    There are plenty of online ones if you're looking :rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,118 ✭✭✭Babybuff


    OldNotWIse wrote: »
    Obviously :D
    yeah, I'm out. well done on your contribution to this constructive and educational thread.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 25 feckedformocks


    Oh yes, to be honest I'm not really bothered to write such a lengthy response as you. I'm sorry, I have clearly offended your feelings, I hope that you can get over this. Once again I am sorry.


  • Registered Users Posts: 984 ✭✭✭ViveLaVie


    Oh yes, to be honest I'm not really bothered to write such a lengthy response as you. I'm sorry, I have clearly offended your feelings, I hope that you can get over this. Once again I am sorry.

    I'm not sure as you haven't quoted anything, but I think you may be talking to me here? I'm not actually offended, I just was interested in debating this with you as it is clear we have very different ideas of what motivates sexual orientation. IMO it is a biological motivation. My body works in such a way that I am sexually attracted to men. In your argument, it seemed to me that you were saying a possible motivation for me being heterosexual was a psychological one i.e. I *may* have chosen to incline more towards heterosexuality as a preferred orientation due to psychological and societal pressures. IMO this would question my sexuality. Your stance would be that really I'm bisexual, and I have only chosen heterosexuality. In the same way, a homosexual would choose it. I contend this. I would like you to enter back into the debate, after all the point of this thread is to debate the question. Apologies if my earlier post seemed aggressive or offended you in any way. :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 25 feckedformocks


    ViveLaVie wrote: »
    I'm not sure as you haven't quoted anything, but I think you may be talking to me here? I'm not actually offended, I just was interested in debating this with you as it is clear we have very different ideas of what motivates sexual orientation. IMO it is a biological motivation. My body works in such a way that I am sexually attracted to men. In your argument, it seemed to me that you were saying a possible motivation for me being heterosexual was a psychological one i.e. I *may* have chosen to incline more towards heterosexuality as a preferred orientation due to psychological and societal pressures. IMO this would question my sexuality. Your stance would be that really I'm bisexual, and I have only chosen heterosexuality. In the same way, a homosexual would choose it. I contend this. I would like you to enter back into the debate, after all the point of this thread is to debate the question. Apologies if my earlier post seemed aggressive or offended you in any way. :)

    Not at all, I just don't have time to as I should really be studying for my exams instead of engaging in such debates. I am really quite surprised to see such a huge response in contention with my opinion, so perhaps I am wrong, but it is not fair to settle on either opinion as being right at the moment without the acknowledgment that there is no real evidence to support either view.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    ViveLaVie wrote: »
    I'm not sure as you haven't quoted anything, but I think you may be talking to me here? I'm not actually offended, I just was interested in debating this with you as it is clear we have very different ideas of what motivates sexual orientation. IMO it is a biological motivation. My body works in such a way that I am sexually attracted to men. In your argument, it seemed to me that you were saying a possible motivation for me being heterosexual was a psychological one i.e. I *may* have chosen to incline more towards heterosexuality as a preferred orientation due to psychological and societal pressures. IMO this would question my sexuality. Your stance would be that really I'm bisexual, and I have only chosen heterosexuality. In the same way, a homosexual would choose it. I contend this. I would like you to enter back into the debate, after all the point of this thread is to debate the question. Apologies if my earlier post seemed aggressive or offended you in any way. :)


    It's hard to know, there seems to be some aversion to the "quote" button this afternoon. I thought it was aimed at me lol :D

    I identify as gay and know that it was certainly not a choice. Why would I have chosen such a difficult adolescence for myself? If asked a few years ago if I would change given the chance, I would have said yes. (Now it's not so clear cut because I love my girlfriend very much so being able to change would mean losing her). The notion that we are all on some kind of bisexual "hinge" and decide to lean one way or another depending on our perception of how easy/difficult it is to live a gay life is not one I can take seriously. I remember being absolutely horrified when I found out what the prince and princess got up to when they rode off into the sunset on horseback :eek: I'd always wanted to be a princess up to that point ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 25 feckedformocks


    OldNotWIse wrote: »
    It's hard to know, there seems to be some aversion to the "quote" button this afternoon. I thought it was aimed at me lol :D

    I identify as gay and know that it was certainly not a choice. Why would I have chosen such a difficult adolescence for myself? If asked a few years ago if I would change given the chance, I would have said yes. (Now it's not so clear cut because I love my girlfriend very much so being able to change would mean losing her). The notion that we are all on some kind of bisexual "hinge" and decide to lean one way or another depending on our perception of how easy/difficult it is to live a gay life is not one I can take seriously. I remember being absolutely horrified when I found out what the prince and princess got up to when they rode off into the sunset on horseback :eek: I'd always wanted to be a princess up to that point ;)

    I hope that my use of the quote button will satiate your angry appetite for quotes.

    There seems to be a misinterpretation of what I wanted to convey, perhaps my message was not eloquently expressed with the clarity I was desirous to provide. I do not believe that sexual orientation is dictated solely on choosing the easier option. In my original quote I was talking in reference to why heterosexuality is so prevalent. If heterosexuals do not have strong feelings or inclinations for a same sex relationship then why would they actively choose it given that they face possible discrimination and they are able to procreate freely in a relationship with the opp sex.
    My message was that we all biologically have the capacity for a same sex relationship. And as somebody else pointed out if it is a choice at all, it is not a conscious one.


  • Registered Users Posts: 984 ✭✭✭ViveLaVie


    OldNotWIse wrote: »
    It's hard to know, there seems to be some aversion to the "quote" button this afternoon. I thought it was aimed at me lol :D

    I identify as gay and know that it was certainly not a choice. Why would I have chosen such a difficult adolescence for myself? If asked a few years ago if I would change given the chance, I would have said yes. (Now it's not so clear cut because I love my girlfriend very much so being able to change would mean losing her). The notion that we are all on some kind of bisexual "hinge" and decide to lean one way or another depending on our perception of how easy/difficult it is to live a gay life is not one I can take seriously. I remember being absolutely horrified when I found out what the prince and princess got up to when they rode off into the sunset on horseback :eek: I'd always wanted to be a princess up to that point ;)

    Absolutely! I remember fancying Zach from Saved By The Bell when I was just four! Would've liked to ride off into the sunset with him (maybe when older than four though lol) ;) As you say, why would you choose such a difficult adolescence? If you chose to be gay in a society where it is not as accepted as heterosexuality why not choose to remain *biologically true* to yourself and be bisexual? :confused: It doesn't really make sense as an argument. Likewise, I don't think I am straight only because it's the easier choice. :confused: IMO we are all born with our orientation. I was born straight as much as you were born gay. To me, each of our orientations is equally valid and biologically natural.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,118 ✭✭✭Babybuff


    I hope that my use of the quote button will satiate your angry appetite for quotes.

    There seems to be a misinterpretation of what I wanted to convey, perhaps my message was not eloquently expressed with the clarity I was desirous to provide. I do not believe that sexual orientation is dictated solely on choosing the easier option. In my original quote I was talking in reference to why heterosexuality is so prevalent. If heterosexuals do not have strong feelings or inclinations for a same sex relationship then why would they actively choose it given that they face possible discrimination and they are able to procreate freely in a relationship with the opp sex.
    My message was that we all biologically have the capacity for a same sex relationship. And as somebody else pointed out if it is a choice at all, it is not a conscious one.

    I'm a reluctant fundamentalist. I identify as queer ( as oppose to lgb or t) and I understand that you don't imply psychological choices to be interpreted as a conscious ones. Individual Lgbt views should not be regarded as representing everyone, no one else out there can speak for me. I also don't believe my orientation should be considered any less valid because of it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 984 ✭✭✭ViveLaVie


    I hope that my use of the quote button will satiate your angry appetite for quotes.

    There seems to be a misinterpretation of what I wanted to convey, perhaps my message was not eloquently expressed with the clarity I was desirous to provide. I do not believe that sexual orientation is dictated solely on choosing the easier option. In my original quote I was talking in reference to why heterosexuality is so prevalent. If heterosexuals do not have strong feelings or inclinations for a same sex relationship then why would they actively choose it given that they face possible discrimination and they are able to procreate freely in a relationship with the opp sex.
    My message was that we all biologically have the capacity for a same sex relationship. And as somebody else pointed out if it is a choice at all, it is not a conscious one.

    It just makes it a bit easier to know you you're talking to then. :)


    The fact remains, that even if the choice is unconscious, the psychological motivations for making this choice are the same. You have mentioned discrimination, procreation and societal pressures as influences on these choices. I don't believe that I unconsciously tended towards heterosexuality above bisexuality or homosexuality. In this line of thinking, bisexuals are the only people who are not subject to psychological or societal pressures? Why would this be?


    I do not believe I ever had the capacity for a bisexual or homosexual relationship as IMO I was born straight. If I accept your argument, then that means my sexual orientation is fluid and open to reinterpretation; biologically I still retain the capacity to be bisexual or homosexual but I have refused both of those orientations. :confused:


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    ViveLaVie wrote: »
    If you chose to be gay in a society where it is not as accepted as heterosexuality why not choose to remain *biologically true* to yourself and be bisexual? :confused: It doesn't really make sense as an argument. Likewise, I don't think I am straight only because it's the easier choice. :confused: IMO we are all born with our orientation. I was born straight as much as you were born gay. To me, each of our orientations is equally valid and biologically natural.

    Couldn't agree more.
    I've never given any real thought to what my sexuality is, i just followed what felt right to me. See a woman - get horny, see a man - not so much:).
    If it was a choice, bi is the obvious one, double the options and all that! But there's no choice, I just can't be attracted to men anymore than I could just stop being attracted to women. I am being biologicaly true to myself, I think it's impossible not to be!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    I hope that my use of the quote button will satiate your angry appetite for quotes.

    There seems to be a misinterpretation of what I wanted to convey, perhaps my message was not eloquently expressed with the clarity I was desirous to provide. I do not believe that sexual orientation is dictated solely on choosing the easier option. In my original quote I was talking in reference to why heterosexuality is so prevalent. If heterosexuals do not have strong feelings or inclinations for a same sex relationship then why would they actively choose it given that they face possible discrimination and they are able to procreate freely in a relationship with the opp sex.
    My message was that we all biologically have the capacity for a same sex relationship. And as somebody else pointed out if it is a choice at all, it is not a conscious one.

    If by "satiate your angry appetite for quotes" you mean "allow other posters to know when they are being addressed" then yes.

    I remember your point about the "biological" capacity for a same sex relationship (by this, I assume you mean physical ability?) but did you not also mention something about a psychological choice? Correct me if I am wrong.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    ViveLaVie wrote: »
    Absolutely! I remember fancying Zach from Saved By The Bell when I was just four! Would've liked to ride off into the sunset with him (maybe when older than four though lol) ;) As you say, why would you choose such a difficult adolescence? If you chose to be gay in a society where it is not as accepted as heterosexuality why not choose to remain *biologically true* to yourself and be bisexual? :confused: It doesn't really make sense as an argument. Likewise, I don't think I am straight only because it's the easier choice. :confused: IMO we are all born with our orientation. I was born straight as much as you were born gay. To me, each of our orientations is equally valid and biologically natural.

    lol, to each their own ;) Mine was Dr Quinn Medicine Woman when I was 11 (retreats shameful and red-faced from the discussion never to be seen again :()


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 25 feckedformocks


    OldNotWIse wrote: »
    If by "satiate your angry appetite for quotes" you mean "allow other posters to know when they are being addressed" then yes.

    I remember your point about the "biological" capacity for a same sex relationship (by this, I assume you mean physical ability?) but did you not also mention something about a psychological choice? Correct me if I am wrong.

    Yes, which I referred to in my response, which mentioned something about conscious give it another read sure.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    Yes, which I referred to in my response, which mentioned something about conscious give it another read sure.
    Gawd stop being so narky :D Just trying to have a discussion. Er...do you mind if I dont(trawl back)? I'm leaving here in 6.5 mins to go see my lovely gf (who incidentally shares your views about the "choice" element - I believe she likened it to deciding one day you might not like ketchup anymore....I watch her anxiously when we're in the chippie :rolleyes:) Actually I'm sorry for the tone of my posts, I have my girlies and am like a barb at the mo :mad: (yes yes I hear you say that oul' card, tmi etc etc) I guess none of us will ever be proved wrong or right. :) But for sure I will read the posts again tomorrow I promise. Have a nice evening.


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