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Work Permit for Croatian

  • 01-07-2012 11:48pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 39


    Hi my girlfriend is Croatian and we want to move to Ireland (I'm Irish and working here). I understand that she does not need a visa but does need a work permit to work here.

    She has a degree in economics and is currently working in Croatia (she is 31).

    I believe a letter of intent of employment is required to apply for the work permit. I imagine it will be very difficult to apply for positions here when not in the country and then explain that you need the permit to the prospective employer?

    Does anyone have any experience on the best way to achieve this? I understand that this will not be an issue from June 2013 as Croatia will join the EU but I would rather not have to wait that long :-)


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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭ResearchWill


    medias wrote: »
    Hi my girlfriend is Croatian and we want to move to Ireland (I'm Irish and working here). I understand that she does not need a visa but does need a work permit to work here.

    She has a degree in economics and is currently working in Croatia (she is 31).

    I believe a letter of intent of employment is required to apply for the work permit. I imagine it will be very difficult to apply for positions here when not in the country and then explain that you need the permit to the prospective employer?

    Does anyone have any experience on the best way to achieve this? I understand that this will not be an issue from June 2013 as Croatia will join the EU but I would rather not have to wait that long :-)


    While Crotia is expected to be a member next year, I'm not sure of the full free movement of workers, it could be a further 7 years after that.


    What transitional arrangements apply to freedom of movement for workers?

    The following measures relating to the freedom of Croatian workers to move to other EU Member States have been agreed:

        For a two year period EU Member States can choose restrict the right of Croatians to work in their country, or in particular sectors.

        These arrangements will be reviewed after two years, with Member States allowed to extend national measures for a further period. The transitional arrangement should in principle come to an end after five years but may be extended for a further two years in those Member States where putting an end to the arrangement would lead to serious disturbances to the labour market or where there would be a threat of such disruption.

    http://www.eubusiness.com/europe/croatia/accession-1


    Now in relation to you wanting to move here, to get a working permit guide here
    http://www.djei.ie/publications/labour/2011/guidelines-workpermits-december11.pdf

    How long have you been in a relationship, if more than 2 years and same can be documented then you can apply for a de-facto relationship visa, http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/WP07000278

    Best idea is to get a good immigration solicitor in Ireland to guide you through the process.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,332 ✭✭✭tatli_lokma


    usually non-visa required nationals arrive in Ireland and then apply for a stamp 4. Various factors affect your likelihood of getting a stamp 4, but there are no guarantees. You might be lucky and have it within 2 weeks, or 12 months! Although, if she does not need a visa as you say, there is a good chance she will get a stamp 4 - its more beneficial to the state to allow her to work than it is to have her supported by you and not paying any taxes! If you have an Immigration garda in your area, you may well be lucky enough that all it takes is a visit to the local garda station and €100 for a GNIB card.

    There is lots of information and advice out there on visa's, stamp 4, citizenship etc. You just need to spend the time trawling and researching. You don't need a immigration lawyer IMO - its an unneccessary expense if you ask me. if you are computer literate, prepared to research then you can find out just as much as a solicitor can for you. If you don't meet the requirements, or if an INIS official drags their feet in issuing a stamp 4 then no solicitor can change that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 39 medias


    ResearchWill, thank you for the details, that is very interesting. I had presumed that citizens could work here once they joined the EU. I have sent a query now to the department of foreign affairs to get the specific details on whether Croatians will need a work permit after they join the EU.

    I have only started my research but I had missed the de-facto relationship option altogether. This does sound like a potential alternative.


    Little Ted, thank you. It looks like the “The stamp four” allows non EU citizens to work here. I will check with the Garda Immigration office and report back on the criteria and try and get a feel for the likelihood of it happening.


    One further question that I would like to ask is that, given she is in good employment in Croatia, can she apply for positions in Ireland before she comes to try and reduce her risk or will employers immediately ask for the stamp 4/work permit before making any offer?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,332 ✭✭✭tatli_lokma


    medias wrote: »
    One further question that I would like to ask is that, given she is in good employment in Croatia, can she apply for positions in Ireland before she comes to try and reduce her risk or will employers immediately ask for the stamp 4/work permit before making any offer?

    Unless she has quite specialised qualifications and/or experience, then I would say, yes it will be difficult to even get an interview without a work permit (stamp 4). Many jobs advertised specifically ask if you have permission to work in Ireland at teh application stage. Given the amount of people unemployed in Ireland, employers are not really bothered to interview someone who may not be available yet, not when there are literally hundreds of people with permission to work and available now. There is no need either to sponsor people as there once was, as again, there are plenty of people available in Ireland with the required permits. As I said, getting stamp 4 can be as quick as a few weeks and I have also heard others take up to a year. Our own case (which I should state was not like your own as my husband is a visa required national) took 6 mths.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭ResearchWill


    Little Ted wrote: »
    Unless she has quite specialised qualifications and/or experience, then I would say, yes it will be difficult to even get an interview without a work permit (stamp 4). Many jobs advertised specifically ask if you have permission to work in Ireland at teh application stage. Given the amount of people unemployed in Ireland, employers are not really bothered to interview someone who may not be available yet, not when there are literally hundreds of people with permission to work and available now. There is no need either to sponsor people as there once was, as again, there are plenty of people available in Ireland with the required permits. As I said, getting stamp 4 can be as quick as a few weeks and I have also heard others take up to a year. Our own case (which I should state was not like your own as my husband is a visa required national) took 6 mths.

    Work permit and stamp 4 are different things. Stamp 1 allows a person to remain and only work if he has a work permit. Stamp 4 allows a person to remain and work untill a specified date without a work permit. Stamp 4 is given to a partner or spouse of eu or Irish national or a refugee etc. http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/Stamps

    This area is in reality a minefield hence why I would advice a solicitor with in this case either jobs and enterprise or dept of justice looking after the application depending on the application.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 656 ✭✭✭gral6


    She won't get stamp 4 unless you merry her.There are no chances at all that she's gonna get work permit here/www.entemp.ie
    The only way is a marriage


  • Registered Users Posts: 39 medias


    Work permit and stamp 4 are different things. Stamp 1 allows a person to remain and only work if he has a work permit. Stamp 4 allows a person to remain and work untill a specified date without a work permit. Stamp 4 is given to a partner or spouse of eu or Irish national or a refugee etc. http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/Stamps

    This area is in reality a minefield hence why I would advice a solicitor with in this case either jobs and enterprise or dept of justice looking after the application depending on the application.


    When you say minefield do you mean the application process itself?




    Gral6 Can I ask what you base this on? Is it really that difficult :(


  • Registered Users Posts: 39 medias


    In relation to the question over what happnens when Croatia join the EU, I got the following response from the department of Justice:


    The legislation regarding Croatian citizens has not been finalised and we
    do not know what the position will be with regards to Work Permits. Please
    contact us later in the year around November or December when we should be able to answer your queries.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭ResearchWill


    gral6 wrote: »
    She won't get stamp 4 unless you merry her.There are no chances at all that she's gonna get work permit here/www.entemp.ie
    The only way is a marriage

    INIS would disagree with you as I already posted http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/WP07000278

    Don't think you need to be married to satisfy de-facto.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭ResearchWill


    medias wrote: »
    When you say minefield do you mean the application process itself?




    Gral6 Can I ask what you base this on? Is it really that difficult :(

    The application process is supposed to be simple, but 2 issues for you do you apply to justice for de-facto or do you go to jobs for work permit.

    Then the issue is both depatrtments seek extra documents at various stages, a person who knows the system, knows this and has everything setup.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭ResearchWill


    medias wrote: »
    In relation to the question over what happnens when Croatia join the EU, I got the following response from the department of Justice:


    The legislation regarding Croatian citizens has not been finalised and we
    do not know what the position will be with regards to Work Permits. Please
    contact us later in the year around November or December when we should be able to answer your queries.

    With the economy as it is I will bet they will try and exclude as long as possible, as with the recent countries.


  • Registered Users Posts: 39 medias


    With the economy as it is I will bet they will try and exclude as long as possible, as with the recent countries.

    Yes I would be under no illusion that this would change come the end of the year.


    Well it sounds like the option should be something like apply for the Stamp 4 first and see how it goes, if good then she can get a job and work. If not then apply for the de-facto and/or work permit


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭ResearchWill


    medias wrote: »
    Yes I would be under no illusion that this would change come the end of the year.


    Well it sounds like the option should be something like apply for the Stamp 4 first and see how it goes, if good then she can get a job and work. If not then apply for the de-facto and/or work permit

    No de-facto is stamp 4, the basis for applying for stamp 4 is the defacto relationship. If not available then stamp 1 with a work permit.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 9,921 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    medias wrote: »
    Hi my girlfriend is Croatian and we want to move to Ireland (I'm Irish and working here). I understand that she does not need a visa but does need a work permit to work here.

    She has a degree in economics and is currently working in Croatia (she is 31).

    I believe a letter of intent of employment is required to apply for the work permit. I imagine it will be very difficult to apply for positions here when not in the country and then explain that you need the permit to the prospective employer?

    Does anyone have any experience on the best way to achieve this? I understand that this will not be an issue from June 2013 as Croatia will join the EU but I would rather not have to wait that long :-)

    Given the current situation within the EU, I would doubt that Croatia's entry into the EU will have any impact on the visa situation for several years to come... so I doubt that it will be of much use to you.

    As for gaining a work permit on her own merit, again I would not hold out much hope on this front. In addition to everything else the employer must show that there is no EU or EA (e.g. Switzerland) person available to take up the position, this is usually done by advertising the job locally and abroad. However from some areas (Clerical/Admin/Finance/Banking being one) this is not enough as it is clearly recognized that there are more than sufficient applicants available within the EU to fill such positions. So unless your girlfriend has a PhD in economics and has a national or international reputation in this area, it is going to be a very hard sell.

    I would expect your best chance is marriage or some kind of registered partnership agreement that would allow you to apply for a visa under the heading of family reunification.

    One thing I would advise is to make sure that you do everything by the book, as any restrictions issued by the Irish authorities are EU/EA applicable. So the penalties can be very restricting!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭ResearchWill


    Jim2007 wrote: »
    Given the current situation within the EU, I would doubt that Croatia's entry into the EU will have any impact on the visa situation for several years to come... so I doubt that it will be of much use to you.

    As for gaining a work permit on her own merit, again I would not hold out much hope on this front. In addition to everything else the employer must show that there is no EU or EA (e.g. Switzerland) person available to take up the position, this is usually done by advertising the job locally and abroad. However from some areas (Clerical/Admin/Finance/Banking being one) this is not enough as it is clearly recognized that there are more than sufficient applicants available within the EU to fill such positions. So unless your girlfriend has a PhD in economics and has a national or international reputation in this area, it is going to be a very hard sell.

    I would expect your best chance is marriage or some kind of registered partnership agreement that would allow you to apply for a visa under the heading of family reunification.

    One thing I would advise is to make sure that you do everything by the book, as any restrictions issued by the Irish authorities are EU/EA applicable. So the penalties can be very restricting!

    There is no need to be married or in a registered partnership, de-facto only requires that you can show a relationship for 2 or more years. It is not family reunification, that application is for recognised refugees.


  • Registered Users Posts: 656 ✭✭✭gral6


    De-facto does not work. What the problem of getting married in Croatia ? If something goes wrong you ll get divorced over there very easy


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 9,921 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    There is no need to be married or in a registered partnership, de-facto only requires that you can show a relationship for 2 or more years. It is not family reunification, that application is for recognised refugees.

    I was just using EU/EA speak, because that is the level I deal with most of the time.

    Croatia has the concept of a "domestic partnership" which is widely accepted through out the EU/EA for the purposes of reunification (or whatever you prefer to call it), so I expect that having that would be much easier than having to prove a de-facto relationship....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭ResearchWill


    gral6 wrote: »
    De-facto does not work. What the problem of getting married in Croatia ? If something goes wrong you ll get divorced over there very easy

    De-facto does work, I have know people who have got stamp 4 under de-facto. The problem with marriage is that the Irish state may not recognise and future divorce and the guy could be in seriouse difficulty in years to come.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭ResearchWill


    Jim2007 wrote: »
    I was just using EU/EA speak, because that is the level I deal with most of the time.

    Croatia has the concept of a "domestic partnership" which is widely accepted through out the EU/EA for the purposes of reunification (or whatever you prefer to call it), so I expect that having that would be much easier than having to prove a de-facto relationship....

    De-facto is in fact very easy to prove, if the guy has been living with the girl in excess of 2 years then bills, rental agreement, invites to weddings and parties in both names and photographs of them together over a period of time.

    Why enter into something they don't have to.


  • Registered Users Posts: 39 medias


    Interesting discussion guys, thank you for all the feedback. To be honest I don't really have an appreciation of how hard this is going to be given the mixed feedback. I think the next step has to be to speak to the immigration officer at the garda station and see can we make the application, after that we will have to see .....


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  • Registered Users Posts: 656 ✭✭✭gral6


    You better ask your question over here
    www.immigrationboards.com


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,332 ✭✭✭tatli_lokma


    De-facto is in fact very easy to prove, if the guy has been living with the girl in excess of 2 years then bills, rental agreement, invites to weddings and parties in both names and photographs of them together over a period of time.

    Why enter into something they don't have to.

    But OP says that he lives here, she lives there. Whilst a relationship can be proven, classifying it as 'de-facto' may prove difficult. Given the paperwork we had to provide to prove the validity of our relationship, and we are married, I can only imagine there are more grey areas when one goes for de-facto and doesn't live together


  • Registered Users Posts: 39 medias


    Little Ted wrote: »
    De-facto is in fact very easy to prove, if the guy has been living with the girl in excess of 2 years then bills, rental agreement, invites to weddings and parties in both names and photographs of them together over a period of time. Why enter into something they don't have to.
    But OP says that he lives here, she lives there. Whilst a relationship can be proven, classifying it as 'de-facto' may prove difficult. Given the paperwork we had to provide to prove the validity of our relationship, and we are married, I can only imagine there are more grey areas when one goes for de-facto and doesn't live together

    Sorry just to clarify I was living in Croatia for over a year and then had to move back as my contract ended, we have them been traveling back and forth since

    Is the stamp 4 application on line or do you need to speak with the guards first? Can't seem to find it here


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,332 ✭✭✭tatli_lokma


    medias wrote: »
    Sorry just to clarify I was living in Croatia for over a year and then had to move back as my contract ended, we have them been traveling back and forth since

    Is the stamp 4 application on line or do you need to speak with the guards first? Can't seem to find it here

    Yes, but living together for 1 year and now separate is more difficult to establish as de-facto than a couple living together for 2 yrs. I'm not saying it can't be done or won't be accepted, but it does make it more open to the decision of the immigration official dealing with the application. When we got married here we had to prove a valid relationshop prior to the marriage. We were together 4 years before marriage, provided a LOAD of proof, including a property purchased together, and they still came back looking for more proof!

    As for applying online, I don't believe this can be done, and as far as I know you need residency confirmed before a work permit is issued, but best to confirm this with INIS first. The bad news....INIS are notoriously difficult to get through to. The lines are only open Mon, Wed & Fri from 10am to 12.30pm. During that time you literally just have to keep phoning and phoning and phoning until you get through. In fact, of the whole process, we found getting the info from INIS and getting through to them to be the most difficult part! Their number is 1890 551 500
    You can email them too - visamail@justice.ie
    They are quite slow about replying, but its worth emailing and phoning regularly until you get an answer. Anything they confirm with you, ask them for a link to confirmation of this on the website, or ask them to email it to you - best to have any information in writing just in case.

    Good luck


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭ResearchWill


    medias wrote: »
    Sorry just to clarify I was living in Croatia for over a year and then had to move back as my contract ended, we have them been traveling back and forth since

    Is the stamp 4 application on line or do you need to speak with the guards first? Can't seem to find it here

    I have see de-facto applications after regular relationship on holidays it is more difficult but not any way impossible. They look at e-mails and other contact it is easier in this case as they spent a year together in Croatia.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,332 ✭✭✭tatli_lokma


    Just be warned, emails are not acceptable as the main proof of relationship - mainly because they can be doctored. We were explicity told this - while you can include them to bolster your application, they should not be the main form of contact for a "considerable" portion of the relationship - considerable is their term and very vague. From what OP has said, visits back and forth have occurred since he returned to Ireland, so the relationship has not been only email and phone based since then. So they should be fine.

    OP you should include copies of the entry and exit stamps on your passports and copies of your flight bookings. My advice to anyone with a partner abroad - KEEP ALL YOUR FLIGHT BOOKINGS, PHONE BILLS, EMAILS AND PHOTOGRAPH EVERYTHING! they will prove very valuable. every event you attend together - photograph it. Take photos with both families - not just the couple, but with each others families and friends.

    De-facto can take ages though - up to 12 mths according to INIS. REalistically it would probably be less than this, but I would guess at least 6 mths. If you go this route, the main thing you need to prove is that you can support her whilst she is waiting on the decision and in a case where she is not granted a work permit, that you can continue to support her and she won't need assistance of the state. She will not be allowed to work whilst awaiting a decision on the application

    http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/WP07000278


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭ResearchWill


    Little Ted wrote: »
    Just be warned, emails are not acceptable as the main proof of relationship - mainly because they can be doctored. We were explicity told this - while you can include them to bolster your application, they should not be the main form of contact for a "considerable" portion of the relationship - considerable is their term and very vague. From what OP has said, visits back and forth have occurred since he returned to Ireland, so the relationship has not been only email and phone based since then. So they should be fine.

    OP you should include copies of the entry and exit stamps on your passports and copies of your flight bookings. My advice to anyone with a partner abroad - KEEP ALL YOUR FLIGHT BOOKINGS, PHONE BILLS, EMAILS AND PHOTOGRAPH EVERYTHING! they will prove very valuable. every event you attend together - photograph it. Take photos with both families - not just the couple, but with each others families and friends.

    De-facto can take ages though - up to 12 mths according to INIS. REalistically it would probably be less than this, but I would guess at least 6 mths. If you go this route, the main thing you need to prove is that you can support her whilst she is waiting on the decision and in a case where she is not granted a work permit, that you can continue to support her and she won't need assistance of the state. She will not be allowed to work whilst awaiting a decision on the application

    http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/WP07000278

    All very good advice, and because of the proofs required, together with the departments random changes in policy best to get a good immigration solicitor involved. BTW the 12 month time to make decision is about right, they should not go over that time limit due to the high Court case of Mobin v MJELR don't know the reference off hand.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1 Vedrana


    Hi there,
    I dont if you got full informaion so far on that subject, but either way I would like to introduce you to the fact of Croatians working permits in Ireland (as in non -eu) . Dont mistake stamp 4 with stamp 1 as this is very different. To obtain stamp 4, a non -eu can apply for it after 5 years living in Ireland. That means that during these 5 years, non -eu will have to work under the work permit (stamp 1). In application (after 5 years) all the work permits must be enclosed. So, stamp 1 is actualy a work permit and stamp 4 is a long term residance that lasts for 5 years and person can live and work in Ireland for 5 years without a work permit. Waiting period for stamp 4 after application can be up to 2 years!


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,322 ✭✭✭JustAThought


    I wouldn't be rushing to marry someone I've only known for a year .... There's 400,000 people on the dole here ; work might just be irrelevant. Will she be happy giving up her job in C to just hang about all fday here!


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,503 ✭✭✭adamski8


    I wouldn't be rushing to marry someone I've only known for a year .... There's 400,000 people on the dole here ; work might just be irrelevant. Will she be happy giving up her job in C to just hang about all fday here!
    there is a similar amount without work there and im sure they arent under any illusions about the job market. she is coming so they can be together not for a job, as they said she already has a job there.


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