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How many acres to make a living

  • 15-11-2011 10:13pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 129 ✭✭


    What would you guys reckon is the min acers required to make a living? Assuming all good land suitable for any type of farming. Maybe suggest the what you would suggest for business - Dairy, Cattle, Forestry, etc. Thanks. - Also suggest what you would consider a reasonable living?


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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,570 ✭✭✭Rovi


    [MOD] PHEW!
    Some off-topic stuff split off to a new thread of its own; you guys post quicker than I can shift stuff around! :D [/MOD]


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭Tipp Man


    Regarding the original post - it is impossible to say how few acres to make a living as it depends on the standard of living required and on the farming enterprise and on the quality of the land

    I know people living off 30 acres with 30 cows - i know their neighbours with 150 cows and a few hundred acres and they are in financial trouble. Financial management is key

    If you were to assume a living was 25k net profit then @800 a cow you'd need 30 odd cows so 30 acres (minimal borrowings and decent milk price).

    On a calf to year and half cattle system you should be making a minimum of 300-350 an animal - so to get to 25k you'd probably need to sell 70 cattle a year so 60 acres plus (this is ignoring SFP etc, no borrowings)

    Can't comment for tillage or sucklers


  • Registered Users Posts: 129 ✭✭kk09


    Tipp Man wrote: »
    Regarding the original post - it is impossible to say how few acres to make a living as it depends on the standard of living required and on the farming enterprise and on the quality of the land

    I know people living off 30 acres with 30 cows - i know their neighbours with 150 cows and a few hundred acres and they are in financial trouble. Financial management is key

    If you were to assume a living was 25k net profit then @800 a cow you'd need 30 odd cows so 30 acres (minimal borrowings and decent milk price).

    On a calf to year and half cattle system you should be making a minimum of 300-350 an animal - so to get to 25k you'd probably need to sell 70 cattle a year so 60 acres plus (this is ignoring SFP etc, no borrowings)

    Can't comment for tillage or sucklers

    Thanks tipp man, you seem to be making a good case for the dairy here, at €833/acre profit. Understand there is alot more work involved. And help may be needed regularly for say more than 30 cows??? which would be an outlay.

    The calf to year ........ - at €416/acre, but alot less labout intensive would suggest?? Not sure I understand what you are saying here fully.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭Tipp Man


    kk09 wrote: »
    Thanks tipp man, you seem to be making a good case for the dairy here, at €833/acre profit. Understand there is alot more work involved. And help may be needed regularly for say more than 30 cows??? which would be an outlay.

    The calf to year ........ - at €416/acre, but alot less labout intensive would suggest?? Not sure I understand what you are saying here fully.

    you would not need any help with 30 cows - a fella should be able to manage 100 cows with ease and probably 150 with a decent set up. Also with 30 cows you couldn't afford help

    there could be plenty of work in the spring rearing 70 calves - especially if you get a scour or the like, calves can be a right pain. But for majority of year it would be very easy.

    You would need to factor in your time and the opportunity cost of it. With 30 cows it would be difficult to have a job with it - it would be much easier to have a job with cattle. If you are talking about just farming then dairy is far more profitable than cattle - but if you take total income into account then cattle with a job can be hard to beat


  • Registered Users Posts: 947 ✭✭✭fodda


    Tipp Man wrote: »
    (this is ignoring SFP etc, no borrowings)

    I would ignore any payments and grant assisted schemes because if the business cant stand on its own feet without supplementary payments then it just isnt viable.

    Gloom & doom moment:)......If the euro goes which looks highly possible at present, then there will be no supplementary payments ever.......sorry.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 129 ✭✭kk09


    Yea, I'm sure on it's own two feet are the best. How might the Euro going affect forrestry do we think?? Anyone suggest what money is to be made from forrestry?


  • Registered Users Posts: 947 ✭✭✭fodda


    kk09 wrote: »
    Yea, I'm sure on it's own two feet are the best. How might the Euro going affect forrestry do we think?? Anyone suggest what money is to be made from forrestry?

    Forrestry or coppicing will be a big thing from now on even in its least form which is firewood because it is linked to fuel prices whose only way is up.


  • Registered Users Posts: 354 ✭✭Pharaoh1


    Unfortunately the size of your SFP (and DAS, REPS etc..) is far more important than the number of acres at the moment although it may not always be so. The guy with 100 acres and a 30k SFP is in a better position than his neighbour with 200 acres and 0k SFP.

    Well managed dairy is profitable at current prices and tillage on owned land will probably make a small margin.
    Teagasc figures show that with a few exceptions beef is essentially an unprofitable business.
    Anyone who read the article on the Kepack fattening enterprise in the Journal a couple of weeks ago will realise this. A bit shocking really when you understand the advantages of scale and (apparent) efficiency that this business would have.
    Beef farmers can always trumpet a pretend profit by ignoring a number of costs that should be included in the calculation. I've done it myself on occasion to make myself feel better.


  • Registered Users Posts: 129 ✭✭kk09


    Pharaoh1 wrote: »
    Unfortunately the size of your SFP (and DAS, REPS etc..) is far more important than the number of acres at the moment although it may not always be so. The guy with 100 acres and a 30k SFP is in a better position than his neighbour with 200 acres and 0k SFP.

    Well managed dairy is profitable at current prices and tillage on owned land will probably make a small margin.
    Teagasc figures show that with a few exceptions beef is essentially an unprofitable business.
    Anyone who read the article on the Kepack fattening enterprise in the Journal a couple of weeks ago will realise this. A bit shocking really when you understand the advantages of scale and (apparent) efficiency that this business would have.
    Beef farmers can always trumpet a pretend profit by ignoring a number of costs that should be included in the calculation. I've done it myself on occasion to make myself feel better.


    Lets keep the tread to standing on it's own two feet, even if the competition dosen't. Am i right, is farming a competition in Ireland. Does SFP and SCWS for one farmer affect the price another farmer can get for his stock??


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,583 Mod ✭✭✭✭blue5000


    kk09 wrote: »
    What would you guys reckon is the min acers required to make a living? Assuming all good land suitable for any type of farming. Maybe suggest the what you would suggest for business - Dairy, Cattle, Forestry, etc. Thanks. - Also suggest what you would consider a reasonable living?

    OP whats a living, is it the average industrial wage?

    Or is it just enough to put groceries on the table, diesel in the 10 yr old car and most of the bills paid?

    I suppose if you were hrh prince charlie you'd probably need 30,000 acres:eek:

    If the seat's wet, sit on yer hat, a cool head is better than a wet ar5e.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 129 ✭✭kk09


    blue5000 wrote: »
    OP whats a living, is it the average industrial wage?

    Or is it just enough to put groceries on the table, diesel in the 10 yr old car and most of the bills paid?

    I suppose if you were hrh prince charlie you'd probably need 30,000 acres:eek:

    Since suggested already, lets work with 25K. Reasonable for small family, where other parent works.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭Tipp Man


    fodda wrote: »
    I would ignore any payments and grant assisted schemes because if the business cant stand on its own feet without supplementary payments then it just isnt viable.

    Gloom & doom moment:)......If the euro goes which looks highly possible at present, then there will be no supplementary payments ever.......sorry.

    I personally don't think the EUR will go bang - whether Ireland is in it or not is another question. I think the EU will continue in the medium term also. Its important to note the difference between the EUR and the EU - people often use them interchangably

    If the EUR survives and Ireland is not in it - this may actually be beneficial for Irish farmers as we would receive our SFP in EUR which would be very valuable against the Punt. This would also make our dairy and beef exports cheap. Of course fuel and fertiliser would be dear

    Swings and roundabouts

    However i would not be getting any borrowings and counting on the SFP to pay them back


  • Registered Users Posts: 718 ✭✭✭F.D


    kk09 wrote: »
    Yea, I'm sure on it's own two feet are the best. How might the Euro going affect forrestry do we think?? Anyone suggest what money is to be made from forrestry?
    hard to know what money is to be made from it when its grant aided aswell, i would be more worried about having land planted and grants falling to a pittance and no way of changing system, think faster growing crops for biofuel could be a safer bet in years to come,

    as for the how many acres required to make a living depends on the system i would say it must be coming near 50 - 100 if its anything other than dairy, but i think its going to become more how much can you push out of each acre now as regards stocking rates, also on how little inputs you use, 30- 50 dairy cows crossed to a beefy bull and selling the calves as weanlings i think would be a nice system, beef and tillage from experience are low margin enough, but still making the same or more than our forestry premium for the bit we have planted


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,174 ✭✭✭✭Muckit


    Talking to a lad there in the mart on my lunch break.

    He was teaching, farming parttime. He's now gone farming full time. Now he would have good land, big sheep flock and a few dry stock. Not ure exactly what acreage he'd have. With the job and the farming, he was up on higher tax bracket and running around like a blue ar*ed fly.

    Reckons if a lad can't make a living now from it, there's no hope! I think he's mad!! I didn't tell him that though!! :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 947 ✭✭✭fodda


    Tipp Man wrote: »
    I personally don't think the EUR will go bang - whether Ireland is in it or not is another question. I think the EU will continue in the medium term also. Its important to note the difference between the EUR and the EU - people often use them interchangably

    If the EUR survives and Ireland is not in it - this may actually be beneficial for Irish farmers as we would receive our SFP in EUR which would be very valuable against the Punt. This would also make our dairy and beef exports cheap. Of course fuel and fertiliser would be dear

    Swings and roundabouts

    However i would not be getting any borrowings and counting on the SFP to pay them back

    Whether the euro survives or not is another topic but the odds are massively by the day stacked against your view...........But how do you come to the assumption that if your overheads of fuel, fertiliser, feedstuff etc suddenly become masssively more expensive your product then becomes cheaper than any competitors? Agreed your currency may be lower, but your overheads will be colossal.


  • Registered Users Posts: 129 ✭✭kk09


    Great to see such a good reply but the thread is drifting away from It's intended purpose. So anyone suggest what the best business plan to generate say a €25K salary with the minimum of land.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,701 ✭✭✭dar31


    kk09 wrote: »
    Great to see such a good reply but the thread is drifting away from It's intended purpose. So anyone suggest what the best business plan to generate say a €25K salary with the minimum of land.

    an acre of green houses would get you there, and a bit.....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 367 ✭✭polod


    kk09 wrote: »
    Great to see such a good reply but the thread is drifting away from It's intended purpose. So anyone suggest what the best business plan to generate say a €25K salary with the minimum of land.

    25k profit in your pocket from farming with minimum land, would be a tough job if not impossible ...I find nearly every cent I make from farming Im investing it back into the farm.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 262 ✭✭greenfingers89


    kk09 wrote: »
    Great to see such a good reply but the thread is drifting away from It's intended purpose. So anyone suggest what the best business plan to generate say a €25K salary with the minimum of land.

    kk09 i notice your a member since october just gone, i think you'll find as you hang around on boards that lots of threads drift away from the intended purpose...you'd be amazed what we end up talking about :D

    also regarding forestry i dont think it would be suitable for what you are talking about, even if grants stayed exactly as they are and remained for 20 years your maximum payment would be €213/acre/year.....so you'd need 120 acres to clear 25k, forestry is good money on bad land and i dont really think it stacks up economically on very productive land(unless i spose you are working off farm and just plant as a labour free way of getting more income)..............whatever you decide to get into id strongly reccommend buying say 1000 trees (maybe alder ash and some willow and birch) and planting them on 1 acre (without any grants) this would at least secure your fuel supply in the medium and longterm which will be a big help as was touched on in a previous post


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,343 ✭✭✭bob charles


    I could make 25k profit on an acre no bother, but covered with concrete

    if you want too make money in farming and your a new entrant forget thinking about grants, there for inefficient farmers:D:D


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,382 ✭✭✭Fishtits


    I could make 25k profit on an acre no bother, but covered with concrete

    if you want too make money in farming and your a new entrant forget thinking about grants, there for inefficient farmers:D:D

    Bob, Psst, the Tigers dead. The rest of us now live in the real world ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 292 ✭✭raindodger


    Muckit wrote: »
    Talking to a lad there in the mart on my lunch break.

    He was teaching, farming parttime. He's now gone farming full time. Now he would have good land, big sheep flock and a few dry stock. Not ure exactly what acreage he'd have. With the job and the farming, he was up on higher tax bracket and running around like a blue ar*ed fly.

    Reckons if a lad can't make a living now from it, there's no hope! I think he's mad!! I didn't tell him that though!! :D

    sounds like a man getting his croke park payment


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26 centre 13


    At 30 cent per litre dairy farming done well will deliver 800 eu net profit excl SFP so 48 cows will deliver the average ind wage of 38 k but it wont service much debt or pay labour ..one man can handle 140 cows with help in the spring asuming he has a proper parlour... take your pick .Drystock sadly according to the Journal is just a hobby for part time farmers.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,343 ✭✭✭bob charles


    I could make 25k profit on an acre no bother, but covered with concrete

    No lads I would be using the acre of concrete for farming reasons


  • Registered Users Posts: 103 ✭✭Corkfarmer


    No lads I would be using the acre of concrete for farming reasons
    Care to elaborate Bob?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,701 ✭✭✭moy83


    Im guessing he is talking about finishing cattle ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 718 ✭✭✭F.D


    centre 13 wrote: »
    At 30 cent per litre dairy farming done well will deliver 800 eu net profit excl SFP so 48 cows will deliver the average ind wage of 38 k but it wont service much debt or pay labour ..one man can handle 140 cows with help in the spring asuming he has a proper parlour... take your pick .Drystock sadly according to the Journal is just a hobby for part time farmers.

    How many litres per cow are you assuming to get that figure, just curious as to how much it costs per cow per year
    e.g .30cent x 5500ltr =€1650 meaning the cow is costing you €850 to run
    or at 6000 ltrs shes costing €1000 correct me if i'm wrong here
    also i assume you are not including your calf in the 800 so that would be another bonus, thanks for your figures btw


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26 centre 13


    30 cents per litre plus 4 cents for calves and culls and retain 50 % of output delivers 850 euro per cow actually...didnt want to talk up dairying too much !..higher yields does not necessarily return higher profits..I m talking about a 5000 litre cow with a calving interval less than 368 days..a herd median calving of 16 days..the day half herd is calved .. 400 kilo of meal or less and no heavy metal disease..most herds will average 34 cent plus this year.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,410 ✭✭✭bbam


    moy83 wrote: »
    Im guessing he is talking about finishing cattle ?

    I'd like to see the numbers crunched on that... I presume the thing is to have a deal with the factory before filling the shed??


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,410 ✭✭✭bbam


    Here's one..
    Came a farm for sale nearby, very convenient to me..
    40 Acres with newish slatted unit fit for about 80 cattle..
    Land is good enough and wouldn't require much work...
    Spoke with the auctioneer and €270,000 would buy it...

    Where would you go to make a modest living of it..??


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