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Lecturing in 3rd Level

  • 09-12-2005 2:31am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,336 ✭✭✭


    Was just wondering could someone post their experiences as in lecturing at 3rd Level?

    I'm considering going down this road and would appreciate some 'from the horses mouth' guidelines on the lifestyle/career progression/salary expectations early on and later in career etc. Thanks.


«1

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 23,212 ✭✭✭✭Tom Dunne


    I can only speak for the Institutes of Technology.

    On paper, you need an honours degree plus three years post-grad experience. In reality, I think an MSc is essential. All the lecturers in my department have a masters.

    If you are considering becoming a lecturer, try getting some part-time experience. I used to work shift, so on my days off, I managed to get some hours in an Institute of Technology. Keep an eye out in the papers around August/September - they are always looking for part-time staff. I was also fortuntate enough to be working as a technical trainer in an American multi-national, so that stood to me also.

    I accept no job is perfect, but this is one job that is damn near it. You have to deliver a total of 18 hours per week in the classroom. Allow another 10-15 for preperation/correcting and you still have a very short week. You work approx. 35 weeks of the year, so from a lifestyle perspective, you really can't beat it. In the Institute I am in, you also have to deliver night courses, but for every hour after 6:00pm, it is counted as 1.5 hours, so you end up working less.

    Salary starts off around 36,500 and there is an 11 point scale. After each year of service, you go up one step on the scale.

    Any more questions, let me know.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,762 ✭✭✭WizZard


    Is an honours degree essential?

    What about degree -> industry experience -> taught Masters? (IT related)


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,212 ✭✭✭✭Tom Dunne


    WizZard wrote:
    Is an honours degree essential?

    That's what it says on Dept. of education blurb.

    Private colleges may differ in what they look for,


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,762 ✭✭✭WizZard


    Bah.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,322 ✭✭✭Repli


    I'd love to be a lecturer too..
    three years post-grad experience
    Well I know that's not the case for the largest IT in Ireland (DIT), some of my lecturers went Degree->Masters->PHd->Lecturer and have no industry experience. A lot of people in the Masters course do part time lecturing and lab assistant work. The pay is very good too, pay scales for DIT are here http://www.dit.ie/DIT/hr/Salary_Scales/DECO4ScalesWeb.htm
    Starting on 42,393 rising to 66,163 for Lecturer 1, with the max being 94,879 for Lecturer 3, does anyone know how long you have to be a lecturer to go from point to point on the scale?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,212 ✭✭✭✭Tom Dunne


    In my experience, part-time lecturers can get away without having the full three years post-grad experience (or honours degree for that matter).

    It's kinda' like "well you are not a real member of staff, so the rules don't really apply to you".

    And Repli - the pay scales are the same for all Institutes of Technology. What may not be clear to you is that you go in as assistant lecturer level, then progress to lecturer level. So while it says pay scales for a lecturer start at 42,000, you won't walk in off the street at that level unless you have substantial experience or, as you mention, a PhD.

    You go from point to point on the scale every year subject to various other criteria such as length of service, qualifications, etc. AFAIR, there are 11 points on the assistant lecturer scale, so it could potentially take 11 years to get to lecturer level.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,322 ✭✭✭Hitchhiker's Guide to...


    I've lectured across the private college / I.T. / university sector while completing my PhD.

    Regarding experience and education;

    If you have a Masters - then (according to my knowledge of the Bologna process) you are regarded as qualified above the BA level; even if you haven't got a BA.

    Private colleges will be more flexible regarding education; especially if you have 'real-life' experience. Most private colleges in Dublin (excluding the language schools) concentrate on business and IT. Would be hard enough to find work outside of that.

    Both ITs and Universities have broadly the same standards. Extremely difficult at the moment to get a full-time job without a PhD. Obviously this depends on your other relevant experience and the area you are applying to lecture in; but i would say it is a near universal rule.

    For part-time work it is usually sufficient to have a Masters and good work experience. Or to have a Masters and be writing your PhD. It would be very rare to get even part-time work in an IT or uni simply with an undergrad degree. There is way too much competition from better qualified people.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,212 ✭✭✭✭Tom Dunne


    Both ITs and Universities have broadly the same standards. Extremely difficult at the moment to get a full-time job without a PhD. Obviously this depends on your other relevant experience and the area you are applying to lecture in

    I thought all University jobs require you to either have, or be studying for, a PhD?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,322 ✭✭✭Hitchhiker's Guide to...


    From the application forms i've been reading, it doesn't say that directly. Although it is possibly the case. Thought they generally require you to "be pursuing some form of relevant postgraduate studies".

    Although, obviously, in actuality they require a PhD. Seems to be hard these days to get a lecturing position even with a near-completed PhD.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,322 ✭✭✭Hitchhiker's Guide to...


    Tom - two quick questions for you given your work experience:

    1) How does progression along the scale (e.g. for an assistant lecturer starting at the lowest point scale) actually happen? Is it standard progression for everyone or is it based on performance? If it is by performance, how is this assessed (e.g. student evaluation forms / publishing record / annual evaluation meetings by the Head of Department etc)?

    2) At what level on the assistant lecturer scale would an applicant with a PhD and a few publications expect to start at? Surely it wouldn't be at the absolute lowest level, would it?

    Thx


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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,212 ✭✭✭✭Tom Dunne


    1) How does progression along the scale (e.g. for an assistant lecturer starting at the lowest point scale) actually happen? Is it standard progression for everyone or is it based on performance?

    It's standard progression, i.e. you automatically progress regardless of performance.
    2) At what level on the assistant lecturer scale would an applicant with a PhD and a few publications expect to start at? Surely it wouldn't be at the absolute lowest level, would it?

    No, most certainly not. I can't find my contract at the moment, but I do recall some blurb about PhD holders going in at a higher level, something about not spending more than 3 years at assistant lecturer level, irrespective of the point on the scale. Have a dig around the Department of Education website, I know it's in there somewhere. I'll see if I can dig it out in the meantime.


  • Registered Users Posts: 41 astarte


    I have worked in the IT sector for the last 10 years and it is the best job. I would say that a PhD is necessary for pretty much anything in science and engineering, although possibly a masters with excellent work experience may get you into engineering.

    when I started at the IT the position on the salary scale was largely dictated by the salary that you were earning in your previous job, not sure what it is now.

    It is likely that anyone who gets a job in the IT's now will be employed at the AL grade (salary scales also on www.tui.ie) and has 18 contact hours with students a week, if employed at the Lecturer grade (v.difficult now) you have 16 contact hours a week. But it is tough in the first year or so if you have to prepare that many lectures, much more than a 40 hour week! in my first years there were many 11 and 12pm working days, but once you get into the swing of things it gets a lot easier.

    one thing that hasnt been mentioned is the autonomy, in most cases your 'boss' isnt looking over your shoulder, as long as you are doing the hours and the students are happy, then the heads of departments dont tend to look over your shoulder much.

    but basically most of us are in the job for the holidays, about 16-17 weeks a year.

    go for it if you can


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,336 ✭✭✭Bluehair


    Quick query here (and probably a thicko one at that) but I notice in the salarys offered for, say, a lecturer in Politics offer two scales (above bar/below bar).

    The difference is quite significant, could someone explain what this is? Cheers.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,481 ✭✭✭projectmayhem


    jebus there's a lot of money in this lecturing lark. you'd think they'd be able to teach properly (i'm in MOD EDIT..)


    MOD: Please dont paste a whole departments lecturing staff as not being able to teach properly.


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,519 ✭✭✭✭dudara


    I worked two years as a part-time lecturer in the Applied Physics Department in the CIT teaching two hours a week on a night-course. The pay was excellent, and I've just received backpay from the two years to boot! At the time I was completing my PhD and I needed the extra money to keep going. Couldn't recommend a better job, though the thought of doing it full-time makes me shudder :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,362 ✭✭✭Trotter


    jebus there's a lot of money in this lecturing lark. you'd think they'd be able to teach properly (i'm in MOD EDIT ;))


    And the first ever lecturer bashing award goes to... projectmayhem.
    You even had the idea to be accurate to a specific department in a specific college.

    Mod No Like.

    Im sure theres plenty of very good lecturers in the department you mentioned.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 66 ✭✭*yoda*


    this may be a silly question but i was just wondering what the story is about tutoring? is this done while pursuing a masters only? would a taught masters of 18 months be considered for lecturing or would you really need a 3 year masters with experience added on? ok that turned out to be more than one question! cheers.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,322 ✭✭✭Hitchhiker's Guide to...


    do you mean tutoring on a course (as support for the lecturer), or tutoring in a private capacity?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 66 ✭✭*yoda*


    ya as a support for the lecturer in tutorials


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,746 ✭✭✭pork99


    WizZard wrote:
    Is an honours degree essential?

    What about degree -> industry experience -> taught Masters? (IT related)


    I think it would be better if they put less emphasis on an honours degree* and more on the path WixZard describes with recent and relevant industry experience given more weight. That's based on my own experiences across DIT, Athlone IT and Limerick IT where I began to suspect that most lecturers were there because they wanted the easy life which certainly would not be available to them in the private sector. They did not seem to have much of a grasp of the industries that their students would be going into having gone BA -> MA -> lecturing job.

    (*btw I got a 1.1 hons myself so this opinion isn't based on jealousy)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 79 ✭✭Procrastinator


    Just completing my PhD in a UK university and was on a full academic scholarship...and I'm finding it hard to get work

    After the PhD, that's a must and they won't even call you to interview without that now, You have to be published with at least three papers in peer reviewed journals.
    you also have to have some teaching experience in University and many have the PG Cert in Uni education. Then they want you to prepare a lecture as part of the interview. This is especially true as the RAE's been done away with by Gordon Brown.
    But Irish universities want top class reseachers, with good published papers.

    Its hard to get the PhD finished on time and if you don't the Uni loses their research funding for the next three years, in the UK anyway. So you have to get your papers written before you lose the library facilities that only a good University Library can provide. Without a library, you're done for.

    Anyway, its all pressure so don't do it unless you're obsessed and enamoured with the topic


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 109 ✭✭Aido c


    Obviously when you apply to an IT, it is a public competition so there has to be measurable’s on there, 2.1 better than 2.2, PhD better than MSc etc. etc.

    That said, I think that there is a push now to hire people with life experience. 10 years experience and at least a little international flavour goes a long way. They will and they do push you into MSc's & PhD's after you are hired, but this is stuff you have plenty of time for anyway, and at least your interests will have matured and gained valuable industry insight. Life experience is something they cannot give you so they are now looking for this when you come through the door.

    They also want natural speakers, motivators, people who can grab and hold the attention of a room full of these new students.

    There are a couple of things causing this change:
    1) Student attendance - its crap right now, and they are not just blaming the students, they are saying - what is the lecturer doing, remember this is not second or primary school, you cannot just call the Garda if they don’t show up.

    2) The internet - Information is more easily available weakening your hand if all you put forward is your research ability, information is everywhere now.

    3) Look at your students, more independent, more demanding. Even turn on children’s TV in the morning, you will see 4 or 5 channels competing for their attention, juggling, singing, drawing and playing. Flashing graphics of animals and places from all corners of the globe. The kids sit there largely only mildly impressed. Try to picture this child in 15 years - how are you going to keep his attention?

    3) Motivation - When I entered college, it was succeed or back to the farm, succeed or be unemployed, succeed or emigrate. Their motivation now a days is much more subtle, you have to convince them why they should become an accountant or technician, when they could walk out that door and in 3 months be earning a grand a week block laying or in a few years 45k a year being a Garda. Those jobs did not exist when I went into college.

    4) Industry symbiosis - I cannot overstate this. They want to see lecturers working together with industry. You might be able to fool a room full of first year accountancy students into thinking you know your stuff. But in seconds a Managing director of a accountancy firm will figure you out. He will not want to see any of your graduates.

    5) Money is key now, in the old days you might have earned 14k out of college; a company could afford to almost retrain the student. Now college graduates get a lot more, they need to be productive within 6 months of graduating. You need to work with industry to make this happen.

    6) Class sizes are bigger now too to pay your wages.

    Look, it’s a great job, don’t fret about whether you have a 2.1 or a 2.2 or 1.1 or 1.2, and don’t tumble into a PhD just for the sake of it. Certainly I would not suggest trying to go from a PhD straight into lecturing. Forget about lecturing for the sake of lecturing, use your single years to get out in industry and make a name for yourself. Try getting some international experience, if you have time do a taught MSc while you are at it. Then when you get married and settle down and quality of life becomes important again. Time with the kids etc., and then apply for the lecturing post. That life experience is gold dust when you are trying to grab the attention of a room full of kids. You just see all the little ears pop up. They are not stupid, they will see it in your eyes and they will believe you when you tell them "When I was a single man, I was working in London earning 60k a year as an accountant'' they will then want that, tell me what in a PhD can compare to that level of motivation.

    Astarte said it above and I agree, there is no better job when you can do it. But when you cannot do it, you can’t do it. You can’t learn life experience out of a book, and then it’s a great opportunity of a good life wasted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 79 ✭✭Procrastinator


    Aido c wrote:
    Obviously when you apply to an IT, it is a public competition so there has to be measurable’s on there, 2.1 better than 2.2, PhD better than MSc etc. etc.

    That said, I think that there is a push now to hire people with life experience. 10 years experience and at least a little international flavour goes a long way. They will and they do push you into MSc's & PhD's after you are hired, but this is stuff you have plenty of time for anyway, and at least your interests will have matured and gained valuable industry insight. Life experience is something they cannot give you so they are now looking for this when you come through the door.

    They also want natural speakers, motivators, people who can grab and hold the attention of a room full of these new students.

    There are a couple of things causing this change:
    1) Student attendance - its crap right now, and they are not just blaming the students, they are saying - what is the lecturer doing, remember this is not second or primary school, you cannot just call the Garda if they don’t show up.

    2) The internet - Information is more easily available weakening your hand if all you put forward is your research ability, information is everywhere now.

    3) Look at your students, more independent, more demanding. Even turn on children’s TV in the morning, you will see 4 or 5 channels competing for their attention, juggling, singing, drawing and playing. Flashing graphics of animals and places from all corners of the globe. The kids sit there largely only mildly impressed. Try to picture this child in 15 years - how are you going to keep his attention?

    3) Motivation - When I entered college, it was succeed or back to the farm, succeed or be unemployed, succeed or emigrate. Their motivation now a days is much more subtle, you have to convince them why they should become an accountant or technician, when they could walk out that door and in 3 months be earning a grand a week block laying or in a few years 45k a year being a Garda. Those jobs did not exist when I went into college.

    4) Industry symbiosis - I cannot overstate this. They want to see lecturers working together with industry. You might be able to fool a room full of first year accountancy students into thinking you know your stuff. But in seconds a Managing director of a accountancy firm will figure you out. He will not want to see any of your graduates.

    5) Money is key now, in the old days you might have earned 14k out of college; a company could afford to almost retrain the student. Now college graduates get a lot more, they need to be productive within 6 months of graduating. You need to work with industry to make this happen.

    6) Class sizes are bigger now too to pay your wages.

    Look, it’s a great job, don’t fret about whether you have a 2.1 or a 2.2 or 1.1 or 1.2, and don’t tumble into a PhD just for the sake of it. Certainly I would not suggest trying to go from a PhD straight into lecturing. Forget about lecturing for the sake of lecturing, use your single years to get out in industry and make a name for yourself. Try getting some international experience, if you have time do a taught MSc while you are at it. Then when you get married and settle down and quality of life becomes important again. Time with the kids etc., and then apply for the lecturing post. That life experience is gold dust when you are trying to grab the attention of a room full of kids. You just see all the little ears pop up. They are not stupid, they will see it in your eyes and they will believe you when you tell them "When I was a single man, I was working in London earning 60k a year as an accountant'' they will then want that, tell me what in a PhD can compare to that level of motivation.

    Astarte said it above and I agree, there is no better job when you can do it. But when you cannot do it, you can’t do it. You can’t learn life experience out of a book, and then it’s a great opportunity of a good life wasted.


    I don't know th IT system at all. And it seems from the abuve that its quite different from the University system.
    I also think the above refers to technical courses, i mean practical, task oriented, hands on stuff. Quite different from the pure academia, talking, reading and writing if you like of other courses such as law, arts, business etc.

    The whole work-life experience element makes sense to me though, especially if you take into account how southern ITs are business, adn I mean practical oriented...cooperating with business, responding to the needs of the market etc. And this is excelent.



    Re Universities though there even seems to be some diferences between the Irish and UK University systems.

    But I'll just say this, I looked at an application form for a UK University last week and one of the minimum requirements was at least a 2:1. I was shocked as this is in addition to a PhD.
    before I saw this, i thought that any degree was fine as long as the higher degree had been attained in addition.
    They didn't even want someone who was near completion of a PhD. You had to be qulaified with publications.

    I think the IT system is what it was like in Universities years ago...the older lecturers, some of them, are still teaching with just masters. Sometimes I've seen people given teaching contracts in Uni who were in their final or penultimate year of the PhD. yes they had to finish them, but time wasn't as big a factor.

    I'va also seen people with Master's getting research assistant or tutorial contracts...and these were un-tenured and not lecturing contracts. These would have been for running seminars or tutorials for the Module or course co-ordinator, with little or no scope for content input.

    From what i've heard though, anecdotal I know, the ITs are really good places to work.

    Universities are research and therefore publication driven though. Your name in publications, perhaps co-authoring something with someone known is a big deal...

    And yes, students don't turn up for seminars or tutorials or lectures in the Unis either. Although in the North at least, they keep a roll and if you miss a proportion of your attendance, the grant authority may discontinue your funding...that's scary and an incentive for students not mature enough to realise the importance of making their educations a success.


  • Registered Users Posts: 343 ✭✭DC


    The landscape has changed in recent years, particularly with IT and Engineering. Fewer students are applying for these courses and because IT's and Universities hired lecturers during the tech boom, many of them without PhDs, the opportunities for full-time lecturing are limited. Nowadays a PhD is a pre-requisite at both uni and IT's. This is what senior lecturers and heads of departments are telling me.

    I come from a computer science background and I made the decision that trying for a full-time lecturing position in computer science was a waste of my time. So, I switched my focus towards BIS / MIS, where students are applying in large numbers and it is a growing area within IT's and uni's (students want to be IT consultants not programmers or network engineers these days).

    Luckily I have been accepted onto a PhD course in BIS in an Irish University and this includes a bursary for a couple of hours a week lecturing (no doubt with demonstrating added in too). I am reasonably optimistic that this will lead to full-time lecturing in the not too dim and distant future.

    In my case I started off with a 2-year cert, have worked 10 years in industry (including 5 years running my own business), studied part-time for my diploma and BSc, got my first class honours along the way, and applied for a PhD directly without bothering with Masters. I figured that with the prerequisite being a PhD these days, doing a Masters would just waste a year or two. You will find that a taught masters these days is a waste of time - they are not interested in them - only research masters carry any weight these days. They want to see people suffer a bit first :)

    Lecturing might be a cushy number, but you have to work damn hard along the way to get there these days.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,058 ✭✭✭Sarn


    Regarding pay scales in the Universities, there are different grades with points on each scale. A rough guide is a point for each year after your primary degree, you get an extra point for a PhD. This can depend on the available budget though and also on what type of experience you have.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,541 ✭✭✭Heisenberg.


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 943 ✭✭✭Enright


    i worked in the it industry for 12 years, before i git sick of the companies i worked for closing down, during this time i added an honours BBS to my elecronics degree. I used my BBS to go teaching business in second level and i secured part time lecturing in third level. Since then i have secured an honours masters. If you are considering lecturing, you would want at least an honours primary degree, but in reality a masters is nearly a prerequisit. Most of the people i know that are trying to get full time positions in third level are lecturing part time while trying to get their phd's


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 661 ✭✭✭dK1NG


    you also have to have some teaching experience in University and many have the PG Cert in Uni education. Then they want you to prepare a lecture as part of the interview. This is especially true as the RAE's been done away with by Gordon Brown.
    But Irish universities want top class reseachers, with good published papers.

    is the RAE really on the way out in England??? I was talking to s/o up in Queens last Feb, and there was a fear that it would even be adopted here in Ireland - much to a lot of peoples dismay....
    I have an honours degree with 2.2, currently doing my masters for one reason only; to go lecturing.

    Quick q - what area? From what I've seen recently, a PhD (or submission for viva) is a must to be called for interview in the uni's, but that may be diff for the ITs


  • Registered Users Posts: 70 ✭✭compgeek


    Hi Guys,


    Sorry to re-open this thread after so many years but the education sector in this Country has very much changed and I would love some recent opinions.


    I am very much interested in a career in lecturing and would love if someone could point me in the right direction.


    I am currently studying for a M.Sc and would love if I could do some part-time lecturing / tutoring hours in an Institute of Technology.

    How would I go about this?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 554 ✭✭✭Wantobe


    Does anyone know what is the difference between Lecturer 1 payscale and Lecturer 2 and 3?


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