Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Shale Gas - Mod note post#117

  • 08-05-2011 7:08am
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 905 ✭✭✭


    I see Lord Lawson's Global Warming Policy Foundation has produced an interesting report on Shale gas. It seems shale gas could provide us with relatively clean energy ( clean compared to oil and gas anyhow) for centuries ahead, and go some way to helping us overcome the worries some have about peak oil, and to decarbonise the world quickly. Also, the quantity of gas available to be exploited is this way should bring down the price of gas and make fuel more affordable.

    The report is here http://www.thegwpf.org/images/stories/gwpf-reports/Shale-Gas_4_May_11.pdf and


«13456789

Comments

  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,537 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    cba reading it

    can you give a figure for extraction efficiency , as in how much of the fuel is consumed to provide energy to extract the rest and how that affects the CO2 emission ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 905 ✭✭✭easychair


    I'm afraid I am not an authority so have no idea about extraction efficiency. I imagine if it were very inefficient that would deter companies who are extracting gas in this way.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,135 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    The GWPF seems to saving that shale gas offers a cheaper alternative too oil, nuclear and renewable's. I doubt that when you consider the environmental and human cost of extraction and the GHG emissions caused by burning shale gas into the future... They also criticise environmental groups and other fossil fuel energy producers. I'd like to know who funded their study?

    I would recommend this documentary out http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/gasland/ , there may be some fibs but the pictures speak for themselves

    Some commentators are saving there may be as much as 250 years worth of this shale gas, and I can see why its considered a great solution, anythings better than Gasprom having a monopoly..

    this gives some background to normal natural gas http://www.theoildrum.com/node/3673 while this http://peakoil.com/production/shale-gas-the-problem-with-eroei/ gives you an idea of the hidden issues

    To address the OPs question, there is no fossil fuel 'relatively clean' energy source, IMHO or best options are to start producing massive amounts of wind, solar and wave systems and solve the storage problem, probably easiest with the proposed inter-connectors and some pumped storage reservoirs. Even then Nuclear seems like it will be in the mix, probably bought from the UK as is the case at the moment.

    "a modest IEA scenario, by 2035, three-quarters of the world’s oil production from existing fields will need to be replaced" Mr Tanaka (IEA)
    http://sustainable-energy-ireland.circulator.com/Content.aspx?ID=23465&SubscriberID=2626341&NewsletterID=23460&SendID=45982&AddEvent=True

    May I also recommend these two books, in lieu of Ireland having any decent literature on the subject
    http://www.zerocarbonbritain.org/
    http://www.withouthotair.com/


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,537 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    http://www.feasta.org/2011/04/21/shale-gas-drilling-to-begin-in-ireland/
    The rush has reached Ireland and in February, the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources gave Enegi Oil an option over 495-square kilometres in the Clare Basin. an area which covers all of Clare and part of Kerry and Limerick.

The company believes there is shale gas similar to that found in Newfoundland as both areas were joined together hundreds of millions of years ago. Chief executive Alan Minty said they were investing up to €650,000 in the initial exploration. He said they would apply for exploration licences should the work programme identify prospective targets.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,135 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    I hope they don't find any! I would like to see more info on how they proposed to extract the stuff


    good article by feasta, thanks for that Capt'n


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 905 ✭✭✭easychair


    BryanF wrote: »
    I hope they don't find any! I would like to see more info on how they proposed to extract the stuff


    good article by feasta, thanks for that Capt'n

    I wonder why you hope Ireland doesn't find any shale gas?


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,135 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    easychair wrote: »
    I wonder why you hope Ireland doesn't find any shale gas?

    please look at the documentary above, shale gas exploration can be very damaging to the landscape and environment, not to mention GHG emissions. I would rather see us concentrate on developing world class wind and wave technologies.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 905 ✭✭✭easychair


    BryanF wrote: »
    please look at the documentary above, shale gas exploration can be very damaging to the landscape and environment, not to mention GHG emissions. I would rather see us concentrate on developing world class wind and wave technologies.

    I have looked at the documentary, and I am able to see it's been made to suit a certain agenda. I think it foolhardy to refuse to examine if we have a natural resource which might save us billions in importing gas, on the strenght of a documentary made by someone with a specific aganda. Or even by someone without a specific agenda.

    We already have quite advance wind technologies and, as we speak, the existing technologies are being improved and worked on. Why you think that should prevent us exploring other natural resources seems unclear. If the result of that exploring is that we decide its going to be too damaging to the environment or landscape, or anything else, simple exploring it now doesn't force us to proceed to exploit it, if thats what we decide. Lets base that on proper evidenc, and not on a youtube documentary, or even a non youtube documentary!


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,135 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    easychair wrote: »
    I have looked at the documentary, and I am able to see it's been made to suit a certain agenda. I think it foolhardy to refuse to examine if we have a natural resource which might save us billions in importing gas, on the strenght of a documentary made by someone with a specific aganda. Or even by someone without a specific agenda.

    We already have quite advance wind technologies and, as we speak, the existing technologies are being improved and worked on. Why you think that should prevent us exploring other natural resources seems unclear. If the result of that exploring is that we decide its going to be too damaging to the environment or landscape, or anything else, simple exploring it now doesn't force us to proceed to exploit it, if thats what we decide. Lets base that on proper evidenc, and not on a youtube documentary, or even a non youtube documentary!

    Fine, lets wait and see what 'we decide' and the proper evidence, my concerns lie with shale gas extraction. In my above post I recognised the agenda in the documentary, and I then went on to highlight the issues of shale gases EROEI and its production of GHG's, not to mention enviro cost of extraction.
    I'll repeat (with the in IMHO preamble) I'm more keen to see budgets spent on renewable technologies than exploration for fossil fuels. I would like to see an attempt to slow down Climate change as much as I'm concious of peak oil and see wind and wave the best resource we have to do that.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 905 ✭✭✭easychair


    BryanF wrote: »
    Fine, lets wait and see what 'we decide' and the proper evidence, my concerns lie with shale gas extraction. In my above post I recognised the agenda in the documentary, and I then went on to highlight the issues of shale gases EROEI and its production of GHG's, not to mention enviro cost of extraction.
    I'll repeat (with the in IMHO preamble) I'm more keen to see budgets spent on renewable technologies than exploration for fossil fuels. I would like to see an attempt to slow down Climate change as much as I'm concious of peak oil and see wind and wave the best resource we have to do that.

    It does come across in your posts that you are not keen on flossil fuels. Personally, I try to keep an open mind and don't really mind where the cuelo comes from just so long as the power keeps on coming. Currently, wind or wave power is not dependable, but gas turbines are dependable so long as there is a supply of gas. That one fact alone rules out us being able to depend on wind or wave power, alas.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    easychair wrote: »
    Currently, wind or wave power is not dependable...
    Wave power is still in its infancy. Wind power, on the other hand, certainly is dependable - it is meeting a significant portion of Ireland’s electricity demand and may be depended upon to continue doing so in the future.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,135 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    easychair wrote: »
    It does come across in your posts that you are not keen on flossil fuels. Personally, I try to keep an open mind and don't really mind where the cuelo comes from just so long as the power keeps on coming. Currently, windor wave poweris not dependable,but gas turbines are dependable so long as there is a supply of gas. That one fact alone rules out us being able to depend on wind or wave power, alas.

    :eek:


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,869 ✭✭✭Mahatma coat


    Is this that fracking thing again????????


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 905 ✭✭✭easychair


    BryanF wrote: »
    :eek:

    Isn't it dreadful when bad things happen to good sentences! My point was simply that we only get wind power when the wind is blowing, and waves when there are waves, and tidal power when the tide is going in or out at the right place. With oil, gas or nuclear, we can get power whenever we need it, with wind, wavew or tide, we can get power only when conditions are right.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 724 ✭✭✭dynamick


    easychair wrote: »
    Isn't it dreadful when bad things happen to good sentences! My point was simply that we only get wind power when the wind is blowing, and waves when there are waves, and tidal power when the tide is going in or out at the right place. With oil, gas or nuclear, we can get power whenever we need it, with wind, wavew or tide, we can get power only when conditions are right.
    So, do you think that Ireland should not encourage renewable energy and should rely 100% on fossil fuel sources?


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,537 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    easychair wrote: »
    Isn't it dreadful when bad things happen to good sentences! My point was simply that we only get wind power when the wind is blowing, and waves when there are waves, and tidal power when the tide is going in or out at the right place. With oil, gas or nuclear, we can get power whenever we need it, with wind, wavew or tide, we can get power only when conditions are right.
    Pumped storage
    Base line Tidal power is predictable years in advance

    The big problem with renewables is that the cheapest way to store energy is fossil fuel. Only problem is that energy was stored hundreds of millions of years ago and there is a finite supply.

    Energy generation comes from a variety of sources, each of which have good and bad points. (OK Hydro is mostly good except all the low hanging fruit has been taken)


    Oh yeah 50MW biomass plant up in Sligo Mayo to be buiild soon.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,135 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    Oh yeah 50MW biomass plant up in Sligo to be buiild soon.

    Whats the fuel, local I presume, is it coillte thinnings, coppice or miscanthus


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 724 ✭✭✭dynamick


    There is a 50MW biomass facility planned for Mayo. It is to run on willow.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,135 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF




  • Closed Accounts Posts: 724 ✭✭✭dynamick




  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,537 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    dynamick wrote: »
    There is a 50MW biomass facility planned for Mayo. It is to run on willow.
    http://www.mayotoday.ie/index.php/browse-mayo-news-by-category/going-green/item/2629-first-willow-crop-shows-bright-future-for-bioenergy-in-mayo.html?tmpl=component&print=1
    Brendan Killion and Christian Jenne of the Mayo Energy Agency opened the event with an overview of Energy Key Drivers outlining that Ireland imports approximately 90% of its fuel for energy and that we needed to reduce our dependency on fossil fuels and reduce our carbon emissions.
    ...

    Dave Shaffer Project Manager for Mayo Power and Joyanne Manning of Arup Consulting gave an introduction to the 50MW Biomass Power Station at the old Asahi Site in Killala, Co Mayo that is currently in planning with Mayo Co Council.

    The €100 million project will create over 200 jobs during construction, 26 jobs to operate the power plant and 75 indirect job.

    Dave Shaffer also explained: “There is huge potential for job creation in agriculture to supply local biomass to the plant. Approximately 40,000 hectares of biomass within the region will be required equating to an annual fuel supply of €20m that can be produced locally”.

    Mayo Power will offer 10 year Contracts to farmers, giving a guaranteed market for their Biomass crops. Farmers will be given advice on crop management and a supply of Ash from the facility to fertilize the crops.


    40,000 hectares ?


    the amount of arable land in 1968 was 1,400,000 hectares
    now it's 1,100,000 hectares

    so we could get 375MW from the difference before we consider using forests or currently used arable land or seaweed (it used to be burnt for the minerals)
    http://www.tradingeconomics.com/ireland/arable-land-hectares-wb-data.html
    Arable land (hectares) in Ireland

    This page includes a chart with historical data for Arable land (hectares) in Ireland. Arable land (in hectares) includes land defined by the FAO as land under temporary crops (double-cropped areas are counted once), temporary meadows for mowing or for pasture, land under market or kitchen gardens, and land temporarily fallow. Land abandoned as a result of shifting cultivation is excluded.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 905 ✭✭✭easychair


    dynamick wrote: »
    So, do you think that Ireland should not encourage renewable energy and should rely 100% on fossil fuel sources?

    Thats what is called a false premise, as Ireland currently relies on fossil fuels. as the renewables Ireland uses are not capable of a continuous and reliable supply.

    While I think, for example, wind power is interesting and in many ways wonderful, one thing which can't be claimed for it is that it is reliable.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    easychair wrote: »
    While I think, for example, wind power is interesting and in many ways wonderful, one thing which can't be claimed for it is that it is reliable.
    Define "reliable".


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 724 ✭✭✭dynamick


    easychair wrote: »
    While I think, for example, wind power is interesting and in many ways wonderful, one thing which can't be claimed for it is that it is reliable.
    If you used a windmill to provide electricity to your house instead of a diesel generator then the fridge wouldn't work when the the wind dropped. And if you used solar to power your house then you couldn't switch on the lights at night because the sun doesn't shine at night.

    Is this your insight?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 905 ✭✭✭easychair


    dynamick wrote: »
    If you used a windmill to provide electricity to your house instead of a diesel generator then the fridge wouldn't work when the the wind dropped. And if you used solar to power your house then you couldn't switch on the lights at night because the sun doesn't shine at night.

    Is this your insight?

    More or less, but without the sarcasm. :D

    If one then looks beyond those two obvious facts, one then has to realise that we have to have installed capacity, currently powered by fossil fuels.

    And then when one thinks some more, you realise that a domestic situation, such as you suggest, is different from a national situation. While it's fine at home to have the lights all go out when the wind drops, and then you can fumble about for a bit to get your diesel generator fired up, this is not acceptable in a national or commercial situation, so the installed capacity has to be kept going to ensure continuous supply when the wind drops. Otherwise we'd have the power going on and off while the wind drops and the installed capacity is geared up.

    then one thinks again, and one realsies that a large power station takes time to, literally, build up steam, so if they are not kept going we might experience reasonable lengthy power cuts when the wind drops.

    However, I am not against new and innovative forms of generating power. Quite the opposite and I think its a fascinating, valuable and necessary development for our future. What i am against is fashionable ideas which, when examined, are not very good as solutions.


  • Registered Users Posts: 80 ✭✭nedzer2011


    For anyone put off by the (somewhat ridiculous) Gasland documentary see this article:
    http://www.energyindepth.org/2010/06/debunking-gasland/


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    easychair wrote: »
    And then when one thinks some more, you realise that a domestic situation, such as you suggest, is different from a national situation. While it's fine at home to have the lights all go out when the wind drops, and then you can fumble about for a bit to get your diesel generator fired up, this is not acceptable in a national or commercial situation, so the installed capacity has to be kept going to ensure continuous supply when the wind drops. Otherwise we'd have the power going on and off while the wind drops and the installed capacity is geared up.
    Why do you keep arguing against a point that nobody has made? No-one is suggesting that Ireland (or any other country) should aim to be 100% dependent on renewables, yet you keep pointing out that this would not be a practical situation. Not because renewables are “unreliable” or “unpredictable”, but because they tend to be intermittent.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    nedzer2011 wrote: »
    For anyone put off by the (somewhat ridiculous) Gasland documentary...
    I don’t believe anyone has mentioned such a documentary.


  • Registered Users Posts: 80 ✭✭nedzer2011


    djpbarry wrote: »
    I don’t believe anyone has mentioned such a documentary.

    See post by Brian F, close to start of thread (11/05/11 @ 15:15). Gives a very lob sided view of an industry which could be a great alternative fuel source into the future.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    nedzer2011 wrote: »
    See post by Brian F, close to start of thread (11/05/11 @ 15:15).
    Ah, fair enough. Sorry, I missed that.


Advertisement