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Trinity BEGGING for money

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭Tragedy


    g'em wrote: »
    Only students who are registered with the disability service get extra time. You're vetted thoroughly and only put on the register if a genuine reason exists that qualifies you, I can absolutely vouch for that.

    And as for the year dicking about for a year, well I can 100% guarantee that's not the case. TAP students study full-time and sit Annual Examinations alongside all other Trinity students and are subject to the very same marking scheme, rules and regulations.

    And reduced points?? Ha! Not a hope!
    TAP has no points requirement to the best of my knowledge, HEAR has a lower points requirement.

    TAP/HEAR students also seem to automatically get the magic full top-up maintenance grant(only available to mature students+disadvantaged backgrounds)+student assistance fund. €9,000 per year for teenagers while still living at home wasn't unheard of a couple of years back(though the top-up has been cut a decent amount). There's also 11 scholarships for TAP students(most are €1,000) and a special TAP hardship fund.

    Funding for Mature Students/'Poor' Students...actually, funding for students full stop has always been a joke. Zero fairness and a distinct lack of transparency in it.

    *I'm a JF mature student who got nowhere near the points required for his course, is receiving free fees and Back to Education Allowance. If I had have entered college in 2009, I would have been eligible for: Full top-up maintenance grant(€6,600) and BTEA(€10,812) and probably the Student Assitance Fund and definitely rent allowance.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 23,316 ✭✭✭✭amacachi


    g'em wrote: »
    I can't comment at all on anyone's financial status and in all honesty I don't know what kind of maintenance grant they have available to them, but I do know that grants have been massively reduced in recent years and it's tough for a lot of students to get by.

    If these students are granted entry to college they are treated the very same way as any other student would be academically, in fact their TAP "status" is left behind as soon as they enter JF - no special treatment, no exceptions.

    I'm sure there are students on the course that it's very arguable whose place could have been given to a more deserving case but for the majority they work hard to get on TAP, work hard to stay on it and work hard to get into college like any other student and they're completely on their own once they get there.

    Sorry, just out of interest, is the access programme just the foundation year thing and that's it? How is their getting into JF then decided, is it purely on LC points? If so what exactly is the point of the foundation year?
    Genuine questions btw because the TAP website is leaving me baffled as to what they do.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,129 ✭✭✭R P McMurphy


    Strange accusations on this thread, some people would be better suited to driving taxis


  • Registered Users Posts: 478 ✭✭revz


    bradyle wrote: »
    But the points is because in a disadvantaged area you are more likely to go to a worse school and so get worse points even if you have high ability...and once your there you have to pass all the same exam as those who didnt get in so if they aren't fit for it they'll drop out...


    Oh and fo real what about people like me who are on the grant and still need to work everyweekend to go to college...am i still lazy...you cant say all people who get a grant are same as you cant say people who dont get a grant have to work harder...that is pure BS

    I forgot to mention, the case of the student who got into the course 80 points lower went to my school. The student was in the year ahead of me though, and plenty of my friends also got free points.

    We had the same teachers, same exams, had the same amount of time to study. No "worse" school in this situation.
    "If they aren't fit they'll drop out", in a points system where there's only a certain amount of places for each course, that's completely unfair. Someone who has proved they are academically capable of the course (Well, kind of...) through working hard and doing well in the leaving cert should be given the place. The free points is a joke.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 23,316 ✭✭✭✭amacachi


    kthnxbai wrote: »
    Yeah, like I went to a **** school, but still did really well in my LC. I think she's just making the point that being from a disadvantaged area can make it more difficult to do well, just because you don't have the same facilities as some others may have.

    Personally, I didn't apply for Access because I didn't WANT to get into my course on reduced points (not to mention that I also didn't really need it). But financially, I can't manage without help.
    It can make it more difficult to do well but I guarantee you that if when I was 13 or 14 and my family from then on had been better off I almost certainly wouldn't have gotten near college.
    Tragedy wrote: »
    TAP has no points requirement to the best of my knowledge, HEAR has a lower points requirement.

    TAP/HEAR students also seem to automatically get the magic full top-up maintenance grant(only available to mature students+disadvantaged backgrounds)+student assistance fund. €9,000 per year for teenagers while still living at home wasn't unheard of a couple of years back(though the top-up has been cut a decent amount).

    Funding for Mature Students/'Poor' Students...actually, funding for students full stop has always been a joke. Zero fairness and a distinct lack of transparency in it.

    *I'm a JF mature student who got nowhere near the points required for his course, is receiving free fees and Back to Education Allowance. If I had have entered college in 2009, I would have been eligible for: Full top-up maintenance grant(€6,600) and BTEA(€10,812) and probably the Student Assitance Fund and definitely rent allowance.

    9k for a teenager? Though the highest the grant went to was about 7k. I was also massively sickened to be a year too late to be able to get both the BTEA and the grant. :pac:


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,789 ✭✭✭KH25


    amacachi wrote: »
    Yes, I'd rather everyone sat around in a heroin haze the whole time. Such ridiculous questions don't further your point. A proper loans system would be the fairest way to do it and would probably level the playing field somewhat as a fair few parents would keep the cash for college rather than for secondary school.

    It's a sickner. My parents are unemployed and I don't see how that should affect my academic prowess.

    Yup, that's what I said, well done.

    Your parents' financial status shouldn't effect your academic career but sadly thats how it works over here. The more money you have the easier it is; you get the best education and you can afford the best universities.

    As for leveling the playing field, third level should just be free to all who can attain the standards. But again, the system is set up in such a way that not only do you need the standards, you also need the money. What would be better would be a complete overhaul of the education system which removes private schools so that there is indeed a level playing field. If everybody was obtaining the same level of education and had the exact requirements to fulfill then there'd be no problem but thats not the case and thats why we need grants and programs like HEAR and TAP.


  • Registered Users Posts: 353 ✭✭bradyle


    amacachi wrote: »
    I think there were 10 people ended up doing honours maths out of about 120 in my year in 6th year, about 20 did foundation Irish and maths and at least 10 were exempted from Irish. I managed alright.

    congratulations for ya...but question is your school disadvantaged i'm presumin this is the case seeing as in a previous post u said your school was on the tap...so do u mind me askin how many in your school went to college...the fact is while some people will still make it there is a good portion that will struggle to get through with mediocre teachers and crappy facilities and if these students were placed in a better school they would do better and this is why in SOME cases the points are reduced...oh and for quiet a few courses the points dont change!!!!!!!!


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,434 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    amacachi wrote: »
    I think there were 10 people ended up doing honours maths out of about 120 in my year in 6th year, about 20 did foundation Irish and maths and at least 10 were exempted from Irish. I managed alright.
    An average student in a bad school will do worse than an average student in a good school. An average student from a bad background will do worse than an average student from a good background. The access program is an attempt to level the playing-field, not imbalance it.

    While I would be for a system where everyone gets the same opportunities, that has to be implemented from primary school up, not third-level down
    g'em wrote: »
    If these students are granted entry to college they are treated the very same way as any other student would be academically, in fact their TAP "status" is left behind as soon as they enter JF - no special treatment, no exceptions.
    That's not true. Qualifying through HEAR means you can get things like extra tuition, mentoring, one-to-one meetings

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 23,316 ✭✭✭✭amacachi


    KH25 wrote: »
    Your parents' financial status shouldn't effect your academic career but sadly thats how it works over here. The more money you have the easier it is; you get the best education and you can afford the best universities.

    As for leveling the playing field, third level should just be free to all who can attain the standards. But again, the system is set up in such a way that not only do you need the standards, you also need the money. What would be better would be a complete overhaul of the education system which removes private schools so that there is indeed a level playing field. If everybody was obtaining the same level of education and had the exact requirements to fulfill then there'd be no problem but thats not the case and thats why we need grants and programs like HEAR and TAP.
    bradyle wrote: »
    congratulations for ya...but question is your school disadvantaged i'm presumin this is the case seeing as in a previous post u said your school was on the tap...so do u mind me askin how many in your school went to college...the fact is while some people will still make it there is a good portion that will struggle to get through with mediocre teachers and crappy facilities and if these students were placed in a better school they would do better and this is why in SOME cases the points are reduced...oh and for quiet a few courses the points dont change!!!!!!!!
    It was on the HEAR scheme til about 2007. No idea why it was taken off because the results were going down and from what I could see the "socio-economic" status or whatever you wish to call it of students seemed to be getting worse. In my year I think 2 people and one repeat got over 500 points. As it happens though up til maybe 5 years ago the standard of the teachers in it was absolutely excellent, unfortunately there's been quite a few retirements since then.
    The Leaving Certificate is a remarkably easy exam to do quite well in in my opinion, hard work (for most people, not me :pac: ) is far more important than teaching or equipment.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭Tragedy


    amacachi wrote: »
    9k for a teenager? Though the highest the grant went to was about 7k. I was also massively sickened to be a year too late to be able to get both the BTEA and the grant. :pac:
    The student assistance fund is technically limited by how many people apply for it(each college receives a set amount and it's divvied up by the number of successful applicants+how much they're awarded). It's not very well advertised, and in my experience with it in two colleges - people who are in receipt of it try to stop other students finding out about it as it reduces the money they get.

    I'd feel sick getting almost €17,000 to go to college, because I've worked enough minimum wage jobs(as well as better paying ones admittedly :pac:) to know just how much it takes to earn that.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,819 ✭✭✭✭g'em


    Tragedy wrote: »
    TAP has no points requirement to the best of my knowledge, HEAR has a lower points requirement.
    There's no points requirements for entry but you do need to show a level of proficiency in certain subjects i.e. you can't enter the Science stream if you haven't got at least a C in pass Maths iirc.
    Tragedy wrote:
    *I'm a JF mature student who got nowhere near the points required for his course, is receiving free fees and Back to Education Allowance.
    The free fees have nothing to do with TAP though right? And it's understood that even if you didn't get the points the year you do in TAP will partially make up for this and bring you to a level of competency alongside 'regular' entry students. Aren't Matures also interviewed for places as well?
    amacachi wrote: »
    Sorry, just out of interest, is the access programme just the foundation year thing and that's it? How is their getting into JF then decided, is it purely on LC points? If so what exactly is the point of the foundation year?
    Genuine questions btw because the TAP website is leaving me baffled as to what they do.
    Yup, the Foundation Course is a one-year pre-University course. I can only comment on the Science stream but for that you do Physics, Chemistry, Biology and Advanced Maths. The Biology course is almost identical to the JF course with some bits missing (time restriction mostly), Physics and Chemsitry are more like Leaving Cert afaik but that's usually because many students won't have done these subjects before (whereas lots of people do Biology and it's somewhat easier to pick up even if you've never done it before).

    You apply via the CAO and your end of year marks are translated into points and that dictates whether you get a place or not but I guess you could argue that the points are kind of reduced - but then that's because you do an extra year on top of the Leaving so it balances out.


  • Registered Users Posts: 139 ✭✭kthnxbai


    Tragedy wrote: »
    I'd feel sick getting almost €17,000 to go to college, because I've worked enough minimum wage jobs(as well as better paying ones admittedly :pac:) to know just how much it takes to earn that.

    Ok, maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but how does someone get 17k a year?


    I know BTEA can add up to a fair bit, if you're mature and stuff, but that's by FAR not what the majority of people get.

    I went straight from secondary school to college and I'm on the full maintenance grant and I get €1300 a year.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 23,316 ✭✭✭✭amacachi


    Tragedy wrote: »
    The student assistance fund is technically limited by how many people apply for it(each college receives a set amount and it's divvied up by the number of successful applicants+how much they're awarded). It's not very well advertised, and in my experience with it in two colleges - people who are in receipt of it try to stop other students finding out about it as it reduces the money they get.

    I'd feel sick getting almost €17,000 to go to college, because I've worked enough minimum wage jobs(as well as better paying ones admittedly :pac:) to know just how much it takes to earn that.

    Ah yeah, the SAF. Forgot about that one. Didn't think that much was available though.

    I'd feel sick alright, I've a weak stomach for alcohol. :pac:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,819 ✭✭✭✭g'em


    28064212 wrote: »
    That's not true. Qualifying through HEAR means you can get things like extra tuition, mentoring, one-to-one meetings
    Ah fair enough, does that apply to students who go through the Foundation Course too? And don't you still have to apply for those extra's? As in they aren't guaranteed but you have to apply for them and be selected?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,789 ✭✭✭KH25


    amacachi wrote: »
    It was on the HEAR scheme til about 2007. No idea why it was taken off because the results were going down and from what I could see the "socio-economic" status or whatever you wish to call it of students seemed to be getting worse. In my year I think 2 people and one repeat got over 500 points. As it happens though up til maybe 5 years ago the standard of the teachers in it was absolutely excellent, unfortunately there's been quite a few retirements since then.
    The Leaving Certificate is a remarkably easy exam to do quite well in in my opinion, hard work (for most people, not me :pac: ) is far more important than teaching or equipment.

    Yeah, you need to work hard theres no arguing with that. But a student can only do so much themselves and after that they need good teachers and good environments to be taught in. Not every teacher is going to be perfect thats a given but it is much harder for a teacher to assist students when a class has 30 or more in it as there's just not enough time for it.
    I had some absolutely fantastic teachers while I was at school but they weren't helped by poor funding and facilities.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 23,316 ✭✭✭✭amacachi


    g'em wrote: »
    There's no points requirements for entry but you do need to show a level of proficiency in certain subjects i.e. you can't enter the Science stream if you haven't got at least a C in pass Maths iirc.
    A C in OL maths passes for proficiency now?
    You apply via the CAO and your end of year marks are translated into points and that dictates whether you get a place or not but I guess you could argue that the points are kind of reduced - but then that's because you do an extra year on top of the Leaving so it balances out.
    What's the formula for the points? Just out of interest? :)
    kthnxbai wrote: »
    Ok, maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but how does someone get 17k a year?


    I know BTEA can add up to a fair bit, if you're mature and stuff, but that's by FAR not what the majority of people get.

    I went straight from secondary school to college and I'm on the full maintenance grant and I get €1300 a year.
    A mature student who had spent a year on the dole before college would be entitled to the full non-adjacent rate plus the top-up plus the BTEA, coming to about 17k a year. They got rid of that just before I started though, fcukers.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 23,316 ✭✭✭✭amacachi


    KH25 wrote: »
    Yeah, you need to work hard theres no arguing with that. But a student can only do so much themselves and after that they need good teachers and good environments to be taught in. Not every teacher is going to be perfect thats a given but it is much harder for a teacher to assist students when a class has 30 or more in it as there's just not enough time for it.
    I had some absolutely fantastic teachers while I was at school but they weren't helped by poor funding and facilities.

    I can think of 4 subjects I did where teaching was next to unnecessary and one other where about 2 months of teaching would have sufficed. :P


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,434 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    g'em wrote: »
    Ah fair enough, does that apply to students who go through the Foundation Course too?
    Not that I know of, HEAR and the Foundation Course are separate. I don't know what supports are available to Foundation grads
    g'em wrote: »
    And don't you still have to apply for those extra's? As in they aren't guaranteed but you have to apply for them and be selected?
    Once you're accepted for HEAR, those are available to you as part of it

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  • Registered Users Posts: 139 ✭✭kthnxbai


    amacachi wrote: »
    A C in OL maths passes for proficiency now?


    What's the formula for the points? Just out of interest? :)

    A mature student who had spent a year on the dole before college would be entitled to the full non-adjacent rate plus the top-up plus the BTEA, coming to about 17k a year. They got rid of that just before I started though, fcukers.

    So, you're complaining about the money and assistance that some people get, yet you would have taken it yourself?

    So you're just being bitter about it, then?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭Tragedy


    g'em wrote: »
    There's no points requirements for entry but you do need to show a level of proficiency in certain subjects i.e. you can't enter the Science stream if you haven't got at least a C in pass Maths iirc.
    Yup, but I was eligible for entry to a 485 point course with ~235 points as a mature. TAP isn't any different to the best of my knowledge.
    The free fees have nothing to do with TAP though right?
    Sorry, meant to say free registration fees*
    And it's understood that even if you didn't get the points the year you do in TAP will partially make up for this and bring you to a level of competency alongside 'regular' entry students.
    I think the point is that there's plenty of people from middle class/lower middle class backgrounds who would be just as capable and apt as TAP/HEAR entrants, if also given a chance.
    Aren't Matures also interviewed for places as well?
    Mostly, depends on circumstances, history and your application. I wrote quite a long personal essay/biography and it was sufficient to get me in without an interview.

    You apply via the CAO and your end of year marks are translated into points and that dictates whether you get a place or not but I guess you could argue that the points are kind of reduced - but then that's because you do an extra year on top of the Leaving so it balances out.
    To the best of my knowledge, they aren't translated to points.
    What happens is theres a quota for TAP/HEAR/Mature Students and you're benchmarked against other applicants, not normal entry students.
    I think it's quite rare for people who successfully complete the access programme to not be offered a place, in most colleges it's guaranteed.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 139 ✭✭kthnxbai


    amacachi wrote: »
    I can think of 4 subjects I did where teaching was next to unnecessary and one other where about 2 months of teaching would have sufficed. :P

    Ok well, which subjects are these now? And since they're apparently all so easy, I'm assuming that you got A1s in all of them, yeah?

    What did you go on to do in college out of interest?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,789 ✭✭✭KH25


    amacachi wrote: »
    I can think of 4 subjects I did where teaching was next to unnecessary and one other where about 2 months of teaching would have sufficed. :P

    CSPE for junior cert doesn't count :p

    Fair play to you if that was the case, but a lot of others would need to be taught.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,819 ✭✭✭✭g'em


    28064212 wrote: »
    Not that I know of, HEAR and the Foundation Course are separate. I don't know what supports are available to Foundation grads
    Ah grand, I was referring specifically to the Foundation course - those students are treated as any other student would be.
    wrote:
    Once you're accepted for HEAR, those are available to you as part of it
    So you have to be first accepted to HEAR and meet criteria for it? I'm just trying to point out that stuff isn't "thrown at" these students as has been suggested.
    Tragedy wrote: »
    Yup, but I was eligible for entry to a 485 point course with ~235 points as a mature. TAP isn't any different to the best of my knowledge.
    But with the TAP foundation course you do an extra foundation eyar so although you may get in on lower points you also do an extra year of learning.
    Tragedy wrote:
    I think the point is that there's plenty of people from middle class/lower middle class backgrounds who would be just as capable and apt as TAP/HEAR entrants, if also given a chance.
    Very possibly, but that's the nature of the points race. There's not many people in the TAP foundation course - 50 get accepted, 25 matures and 25 young adults, not all complete, not all go on to University but I'm getting the impression think that TAP students are somehow stealing the places of other people.
    Tragedy wrote:
    To the best of my knowledge, they aren't translated to points.
    What happens is theres a quota for TAP/HEAR/Mature Students and you're benchmarked against other applicants, not normal entry students.
    I think it's quite rare for people who successfully complete the access programme to not be offered a place, in most colleges it's guaranteed.
    I think that's changed in the last 12 months. And I'd definitely argue that you're guaranteed a place via TAP - you still have to work your year and get your marks, it's not an easy backdoor option. I don't think os anyway :)
    amacachi wrote: »
    A C in OL maths passes for proficiency now?
    It is when you're applying for a foundation course where you'll spend a year being brought up to the same standard as other students. If you don't meet that standard you can't apply for your course. You still need to meet the CAO requirements at the end of the day.
    amacachi wrote:
    What's the formula for the points? Just out of interest? :)
    I'm not at liberty to say :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 23,316 ✭✭✭✭amacachi


    kthnxbai wrote: »
    So, you're complaining about the money and assistance that some people get, yet you would have taken it yourself?

    So you're just being bitter about it, then?
    Of course I would have taken it, I'm a human being and self-interest is ingrained in us. What's unfair when others have to support someone else's self-interest. I shouldn't be getting what I'm getting now, but of course I'll take it. If there had been a loans system in place for fees I would still have gone to college because I'm not an idiot.
    kthnxbai wrote: »
    Ok well, which subjects are these now? And since they're apparently all so easy, I'm assuming that you got A1s in all of them, yeah?

    What did you go on to do in college out of interest?
    Geography is remarkably easy, as is Biology. Economics I understood intuitively and Business is a joke. There's 4. I did three of them and got Bs in all of them, literally did no studying whatsoever and did maybe 30% of the homework we got through 5th and 6th year.

    Currently in second year of Science. Will most likely be back in August, much harder to wing it in college. :pac:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 23,316 ✭✭✭✭amacachi


    g'em wrote: »
    It is when you're applying for a foundation course where you'll spend a year being brought up to the same standard as other students. If you don't meet that standard you can't apply for your course. You still need to meet the CAO requirements at the end of the day.
    Again I'm mainly talking about a specific case but it makes me wonder about the literacy standards in one of the other foundation programmes. (Not science.)
    I'm not at liberty to say :)
    Didn't think so. :pac:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭Tragedy


    g'em wrote: »
    But with the TAP foundation course you do an extra foundation eyar so although you may get in on lower points you also do an extra year of learning.
    Which is great, and successful - again, I think the issue a few people have is that it's only available to just "poor" people.

    Very possibly, but that's the nature of the points race. There's not many people in the TAP foundation course - 50 get accepted, 25 matures and 25 young adults, not all complete, not all go on to University but I'm getting the impression think that TAP students are somehow stealing the places of other people.
    The points race everyone competes in, except TAP/HEAR(and HEAR is the issue for me, I don't have a problem with TAP past the criteria being based on paper statistics/numbers and not looking at the real situation of those applying).
    I think that's changed in the last 12 months. And I'd definitely argue that you're guaranteed a place via TAP - you still have to work your year and get your marks, it's not an easy backdoor option. I don't think os anyway :)
    According to the website, anything over 50% and you're golden. 50% for a foundation year isn't asking particularly much.

    For example, UCD guarantees places to Access graduates if they achieve over 60% in their Access year - and UCD are far more stringent when it comes to Access/Mature Students.


  • Registered Users Posts: 139 ✭✭kthnxbai


    amacachi wrote: »
    Of course I would have taken it, I'm a human being and self-interest is ingrained in us. What's unfair when others have to support someone else's self-interest. I shouldn't be getting what I'm getting now, but of course I'll take it. If there had been a loans system in place for fees I would still have gone to college because I'm not an idiot.

    Geography is remarkably easy, as is Biology. Economics I understood intuitively and Business is a joke. There's 4. I did three of them and got Bs in all of them, literally did no studying whatsoever and did maybe 30% of the homework we got through 5th and 6th year.

    Currently in second year of Science. Will most likely be back in August, much harder to wing it in college. :pac:

    Well why are you being so offensive to people who are getting government funding? Would you have hated yourself if you'd gotten more assistance?

    And I'm not just looking out for my own self-interest. It is MUCH better for the entire economy for me to go to college and get an education and get a decent job at the end of all this and pay taxes and the like.

    So, you don't seem to think that everyone is entitled to an education. I personally think it's something that everyone should have the opportunity to avail of. This is why I think it's right for the government to provide education just like it would for housing or healthcare.

    The only one of the 4 subjects that you listed above that I did for my LC was biology. And as much as I'll admit that I did not struggle at all with the subject (I did get an A though) I don't think it's true to say that it's only 2 months of work for the majority of students.

    Also, just from your last statement, it doesn't sound like you work very much. You should be thankful that you have the opportunity to go to college and appreciate it a bit more.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 23,316 ✭✭✭✭amacachi


    kthnxbai wrote: »
    Well why are you being so offensive to people who are getting government funding? Would you have hated yourself if you'd gotten more assistance?
    You're reading disagreement as offensiveness, I can't control how someone reads my posts. I don't hate anyone for taking anything from the government, I hate that it's available.
    And I'm not just looking out for my own self-interest. It is MUCH better for the entire economy for me to go to college and get an education and get a decent job at the end of all this and pay taxes and the like.
    Really now, is 90% of the reason you're going to college not to improve your situation and that of a possible future family? The economic argument is something I disagree with as well but it may be for another thread. People should pay for their own things and shouldn't have to pay more for making use of what they get/make/do, as will be the case if a graduate tax rather than loans system is introduced.
    So, you don't seem to think that everyone is entitled to an education. I personally think it's something that everyone should have the opportunity to avail of. This is why I think it's right for the government to provide education just like it would for housing or healthcare.
    Everyone should be entitled to the opportunity of having an education. Some people don't want it, some aren't very good at it and some can't see the wood for the trees.
    The only one of the 4 subjects that you listed above that I did for my LC was biology. And as much as I'll admit that I did not struggle at all with the subject (I did get an A though) I don't think it's true to say that it's only 2 months of work for the majority of students.
    I wasn't saying it was a couple of months of work for students. Other than photosynthesis and metabolism and a couple of other bits and pieces the huge majority of the course is simply reading and remembering things, there's nothing to understand or concept to unlock. I was saying that there is little "teaching" needed for much of the course.
    Also, just from your last statement, it doesn't sound like you work very much. You should be thankful that you have the opportunity to go to college and appreciate it a bit more.
    I'm probably the laziest bastard I've ever known. Even smackheads make an effort to get drugs, when I was doing them I had to make no effort. :pac:
    I'm thankful I have the chance to go to college and do appreciate it. However I've got several major beefs with how the education system in this country works and I should have been finished a long time ago. It's only the next two years that count on the degree so I'll start working then. :pac:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭starling.


    Fo Real wrote: »
    Can't get enough points or just couldn't be arsed studying? No problem, move into the council flats on Pearse St and you're guaranteed a place in Trinners.

    Er... That's not how it works.
    Fo Real wrote: »
    And yet the college will still wastefully squander funds on needless expenses like class rep training and ethnic minority societies.

    This is completely irrelevant to your main 'argument' and false to boot. The class rep training is paid for by the SU, not the college. Societies are given money from the CSC, not the college.
    Fo Real wrote: »
    Instead I predict another influx of "cash cow" students from Malaysia and India who don't integrate into college life at all.

    Why do you say that foreign people don't integrate into college life at all? That's not something I've ever come across, and you don't seem to be a very good source on that point since your vitriolic rant leads me to doubt that you have very many international student friends.
    Fo Real wrote: »
    Can Trinity's rep fall any further?

    With people like you, undoubtedly.

    It's important to increase access to university for obvious reasons. Unfortunately everyone is not privy to the same opportunities in life and programs like this help to even the playing field.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 139 ✭✭kthnxbai


    amacachi wrote: »

    Really now, is 90% of the reason you're going to college not to improve your situation and that of a possible future family? The economic argument is something I disagree with as well but it may be for another thread. People should pay for their own things and shouldn't have to pay more for making use of what they get/make/do, as will be the case if a graduate tax rather than loans system is introduced.

    I don't see how a loans system would prevent this any more than a graduate tax. They are essentially the same thing after all. Now I'm not saying that I don't agree with fees and student loans and the like, but I think that your argument is a little contradictory.

    And yes, I am going to college to improve my own situation. But it's still worthwhile to encourage people to want to improve their situation and to help them do this if neccessary
    Everyone should be entitled to the opportunity of having an education. Some people don't want it, some aren't very good at it and some can't see the wood for the trees.

    Exactly, so if you think that everyone is entitled to an education, that surely means that government support for this is ok too?


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