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Do city bypasses deliver the goods, and if so what's the evidence?

  • 18-09-2011 12:18am
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Bypasses of cities and large towns are often regarded as top priority infrastructure, although this is not necessarily reflected in the time it takes to bring them to fruition (eg the 40-year wait for a Waterford Bypass).

    Bypasses are expected to give rise to economic growth and rejuvenation locally and regionally, partly due to the relieving of traffic congestion within the bypassed urban area and partly because of improved access in the region.

    For example, according to the NRA the Waterford Byass, which opened in 2009, was expected to remove 10,000 to 12,000 vehicles per day from the city quays, which would have the added benefit of "allowing us to rejuvenate our city along the quays to the maximum commercial advantage". This would "breathe new life into the City residents and the Region as a whole, allowing business and industry to operate more efficiently [and] city dwellers, visitors and tourists [to] enjoy a more pleasant, healthier and safer environment."

    What other cities and large towns have been bypassed in a similar way and with similar anticipated results? Are there reliable data available demonstrating the effects on traffic and transportation, the economy and residents' quality of life? What major changes have occurred and how have these been quantified?

    I would imagine that the recession/national receivership crisis might be a major confounding factor, so earlier data might be more indicative of real effects.
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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭veryangryman


    Locals in the main wont use the bypass as it is tolled.

    So the Waterford bypass only really diverts Cork/Rosslare bound traffic.

    Problem with this country - the major city bypasses (Limerick, Waterford and Dublin) are all bloody tolled. These are cities that are in the middle of other major routes.

    Waterford (Cork-Rosslare)
    Limerick (Cork-Galway)
    Dublin (South/South west/ West traffic bound for Belfast)

    All of which have no decent alternative other than sitting in brutal traffic for an hour.

    Untoll any of those bypasses and see the results. If you want to see a modest example of good results, try Athlone. Town has been thriving since the building of the bypass in the early 90s. Regarding traffic, yes its still difficult to get around the main streets, but the second Shannon crossing means that locals can get across town much quicker. Most cities in Ireland would kill for an untolled functioning bypass like Athlones.




  • Most cities in Ireland would kill for an untolled functioning bypass like Athlones.

    Same could be said for Moate as well.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    It seems to be inevitable that these bypasses are tolled. It is said that the Galway City Outer Bypass will be tolled also.

    Maybe the reverse should be the case? In other words, a congestion charge for entering the city being bypassed? Or both perhaps, with the two tolls being balanced against each other to engineer the desired effect?

    I recall shocking tail-backs trying to get through Moate. As for Athlone, I used to work there in another century, but I can't recall much about the actual effects of the DC around it.

    Have there been any before-after traffic counts in places like Waterford, Limerick, Moate etc?


    Cullen turns sod on N6 road project
    Transport Minister, Martin Cullen, T.D., today (Wednesday, 31st May 2006) turned the sod on yet another Transport 21 road project in the West. The N6 Kilbeggan to Athlone project, will stretch some 29kms and will continue on from the Kinnegad to Kilbeggan phase, which between them will provide a total of almost 57kms quality national road. Work is due to commence immediately on the new phase and is estimated to be completed in Summer 2008.

    The route is also the key east-west axis providing the major inter-urban route from Galway to Dublin and it is a vital step in the improvement of road infrastructure serving the west of Ireland and areas of the BMW region.

    At the sod turning, Minister Cullen said: "The N6 Kilbeggan to Athlone road project forms part of the East/West Strategic Road Corridor. It is a further development in delivering Transport 21 that connects the regions and promotes prosperity in communities. It will provide a bypass for Kilbeggan, Moate and Horseleap, giving these towns back to their people. At the moment this section of the N6 has traffic volumes in the region of 13,000 every day, of which 1,500 are HGVs while Moate can experience three-mile tailbacks on Friday evenings. In addition, it will reduce journey times by up to 30 minutes at peak times. In this competitive environment time savings generate an economic advantage and these savings are translated, ultimately, into jobs."

    The bursting of the bubble has put paid to the those economic ambitions, presumably, but to what extent have the people been given their towns back?

    A quick search suggests there has been significant traffic reduction in Moate, but I'd be more interested in data rather than media reports.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    As far as I know there was no plan to toll the GCOB though given economic conditions at moment I wouldn't be surprised if they try to retrofit one in.

    Personally bypasses should never be tolled, the whole point is to remove traffic from urban area that has no reason been in there. Both Limerick and Waterford are prime examples of how not to do it.

    Tolls are only suitable on inter-urban routes where there is by nature also an untolled/non-motorway parallel route.

    Personally I pay a toll twice a day using the Eastlink bridge and I've no problem with that, it's a considerably quicker as well as slightly cheaper option then taking the Dart.

    I haven't gone near Moate since the M6 opened, I use to regulary spend up to hour stuck in Moate most other weekends from going Dublin <-> Galway. There is no toll you see from Ballinasloe to Kinnegad so other then local traffic there wouldn't be much traffic going through Moate these days. From what I hear the local businesses are actually seeing an increase in local business, as many people from around who avoided Moate due to the traffic now come into it for shopping etc.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭veryangryman


    Nothing against Moate (or any bypassed town) but...

    If i dont want to go to Moate, i dont want to look at it. A bypass allows me this wish.

    The couple of times ive been over have shown that the town is much safer to cross the road, liveable in, commutable to Athlone etc. I dont live there (and wouldnt wish it upon my worst enemy) but i guess those who want a quiet life would be happy enough there.

    The point is that there are 1000s of people daily who benefit from the existance of this bypass. That to me is delivering the goods.

    Regarding bypasses in general, it really depends on the town/structure of the bypass. Enfield/Loughrea internal bypasses were pretty sh1t jobs which people im sure could take or leave. Id imagine Claregalway non motorway effort will be the same, same for Adare. Fantastic efforts include Ballinasloe, Abbeyleix, Mountrath. Ask any local there and they'll tell you they were a godsend*


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach



    Regarding bypasses in general, it really depends on the town/structure of the bypass. Enfield/Loughrea internal bypasses were pretty sh1t jobs which people im sure could take or leave. Id imagine Claregalway non motorway effort will be the same, same for Adare. Fantastic efforts include Ballinasloe, Abbeyleix, Mountrath. Ask any local there and they'll tell you they were a godsend*

    I always found it took longer driving through Loughrea then taking the bypass given the structure of town streets etc, unlike Enefield where the bypass takes longer. Of course in context of Loughrea it also serves as development boundary


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 88,978 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    If they deliver the goods its by keeping some of the traffic growth out of the town/city they bypass. Waterford is of course a mighty cock up, the numbers are terrible less than half the projection and that's not all down to recession.

    http://nraextra.nra.ie/CurrentTrafficCounterData/html/N25-1a.htm

    With the Quays development plans it looks like the City council are trying to shoo away traffic by making life difficult esp for larger vehicles.


  • Registered Users Posts: 280 ✭✭coolperson05


    I think the evidence is seen in Cork with the untolled Jack Lynch Tunnel. It's a roaring success. Granted the population and traffic volumes are larger than any other city (outside Dublin obviously) but it just works. So much so, it's nearly at capacity.

    Had Limerick/Waterford untolled bypasses, More people would obviously use them. In Waterford for example, I arrive back from Dublin three times a week and I often need to get to Tramore/WIT/IDA etc. so the Suir Bridge would be ideal, but not for 1.80 a go. Especially with the relatively modest congestion in Waterford City compared to say Galway/Cork.

    But now that it's built, I don't see NRA or CCs having much say. Must be paid for by someone!


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    I am not in favour of tolling city bypasses in general but Waterford has 2 of them in a way. An untolled southern section and a tolled western section.

    I would toll longer distance routes instead, especially ones like Ballinasloe-Galway where the alternative old route will cost as much in fuel alone as paying a toll would.

    Our economy is far more reliant on fewer large cities and their narrow hinterlands than it was 30 years ago when industry and economic activity was generally far more dispersed. It has undergone a sucking centrifuge towards these large cities since.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,062 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    The Waterford bypass is the one completely invalid example and yet you chose to use it. I wonder why...

    Waterford's bypass is tolled more than the resultant benefits and the city already had a dual carriageway relief road.

    The only cases where a tolled bypass has delivered the expected results are where the benefits of using the bypass far outweigh the cost of it. Such as Drogheda and the Westlink.

    As goes the traffic counts, the NRA has kept their counters on bypassed ex-N roads so there are plenty of before/after counts available:

    http://nraextra.nra.ie/CurrentTrafficCounterData/index.html

    The bridge in Waterford's AADT has gone down by 6,000. Some of the reduction is accountable to the general reduction in traffic but there is also a chance that there has been some increase in local traffic. The HGV % has dropped significantly which you should be pleased with.

    There isn't a counter for Moate but counts at other points suggest that there is about 70% less traffic on the old N6, but that the M6 is carrying more traffic than the old N6 ever did. This would be the traffic that is no longer flying to Galway or doing business that was otherwise unviable with the old road.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,017 ✭✭✭invinciblePRSTV


    Is there not ample evidence throughout the western world that tolled bypasses of urban areas are a success, or at the very least, are not a barrier to people using them? my thinking here are the tolls on the Dartford Tunnel, the new M6 in B'ham and sections of the French M-way system and the various turnpikes in North America?

    Of course would any of these countries actually even consider building and tolling motorway bypasses of comparatively small urban area's like Galway, Limerick or Wa'furd? I think not.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭veryangryman


    Forgetting that we live on an island for the moment, witness the success of any ring roads worldwide...

    M25 and M62 in the UK would bring the cities to a standstill without. Im in Beijing where i am right now (population 11m, not much more than London) and they have FIVE ring roads. The last 2 of which the traffic flows faster. In addition the city has good subway, bus and even cyclist facilities (that Kate Melua tune - there are 9 million bicyles in Beijing coming to mind)

    Bypasses on their own dont keep a city flowing, but they do a huge chunk of it. London isnt exactly a cyclist paradise, but seems to run quite well with a combo of public transport and the M25. Congestion charge helps too. You can drive around Big Ben without hitting gridlock. The same cant be said for the Quays in Dublin.

    People should be charged to use a cities facilities, not charged to avoid them (a la the M50)


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭veryangryman


    Is there not ample evidence throughout the western world that tolled bypasses of urban areas are a success, or at the very least, are not a barrier to people using them? my thinking here are the tolls on the Dartford Tunnel, the new M6 in B'ham and sections of the French M-way system and the various turnpikes in North America?

    Of course would any of these countries actually even consider building and tolling motorway bypasses of comparatively small urban area's like Galway, Limerick or Wa'furd? I think not.

    M6 UK Toll works because Brum already has a Motorway relief road for the locals to use. Long distance traffic (London-Manchester/Holyhead etc) are happy to get the feck out of there en route. Same principle for Severn Bridge.

    Similarly i dont think that many Rosslare-Cork journeys dodge the Waterford toll. Drivings a head wreck for the poor truckers as it is without sitting in the Deise for an hour


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    mike65 wrote: »
    If they deliver the goods its by keeping some of the traffic growth out of the town/city they bypass. Waterford is of course a mighty cock up, the numbers are terrible less than half the projection and that's not all down to recession.

    http://nraextra.nra.ie/CurrentTrafficCounterData/html/N25-1a.htm

    With the Quays development plans it looks like the City council are trying to shoo away traffic by making life difficult esp for larger vehicles.


    Thanks for the link.

    What I'm looking for is data, preferably, such as those NRA traffic counts.

    Tolls clearly make a significant difference, but rather than a discussion of their advantages and disadvantages I'd prefer to have some hard information on what specific bypasses have delivered to the bypassed cities and towns versus what was predicted or envisaged.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭veryangryman


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Thanks for the link.

    What I'm looking for is data, preferably, such as those NRA traffic counts.

    Tolls clearly make a significant difference, but rather than a discussion of their advantages and disadvantages I'd prefer to have some hard information on what specific bypasses have delivered to the bypassed cities and towns versus what was predicted or envisaged.

    Its difficult to get unbiased results as the bypasses change driver behaviour

    Example...Drivers now take longer distance journeys as journey times are reduced. Tolls impact a decision on whether to use th bypass. Economic downturn yada yada.

    For instance, 10 years or so ago, there was 1 route through Kinnegad. There are now 3. Plus the other factors so its hard to really measure


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    MYOB wrote: »
    The Waterford bypass is the one completely invalid example and yet you chose to use it. I wonder why...

    Waterford's bypass is tolled more than the resultant benefits and the city already had a dual carriageway relief road.

    The only cases where a tolled bypass has delivered the expected results are where the benefits of using the bypass far outweigh the cost of it. Such as Drogheda and the Westlink.

    As goes the traffic counts, the NRA has kept their counters on bypassed ex-N roads so there are plenty of before/after counts available:

    http://nraextra.nra.ie/CurrentTrafficCounterData/index.html

    The bridge in Waterford's AADT has gone down by 6,000. Some of the reduction is accountable to the general reduction in traffic but there is also a chance that there has been some increase in local traffic. The HGV % has dropped significantly which you should be pleased with.

    There isn't a counter for Moate but counts at other points suggest that there is about 70% less traffic on the old N6, but that the M6 is carrying more traffic than the old N6 ever did. This would be the traffic that is no longer flying to Galway or doing business that was otherwise unviable with the old road.



    Don't start.

    Waterford was the first example to come up when I did an initial Google search. I also mentioned Moate. Others have since mentioned Cork and Limerick. I have made no comment on any specific case.

    I am simply trying to find out whether there is any hard evidence of bypass effects. It doesn't matter where, initially at least. What counts is the measured effects, AFAIAC.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,534 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    If you want to see the difference, trying driving through Cork City centre any time the tunnel is fully closed.

    They'll be doing so in October during the evening, night and early morning.

    Anytime they do so, the traffic in the city centre goes mental, even at 8 or 9 at night.

    If the Jack Lynch Tunnel was tolled, Cork City centre would grind to a halt.

    Tolling Waterford and Limerick were two majorly awful decisions.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,017 ✭✭✭invinciblePRSTV


    M6 UK Toll works because Brum already has a Motorway relief road for the locals to use. Long distance traffic (London-Manchester/Holyhead etc) are happy to get the feck out of there en route. Same principle for Severn Bridge.

    Maybe then we should build bypasses of the bypasses for the poor hard pressed Limerick & Wa'furd locals?

    If you want to see the difference, trying driving through Cork City centre any time the tunnel is fully closed.

    They'll be doing so in October during the evening, night and early morning.

    Anytime they do so, the traffic in the city centre goes mental, even at 8 or 9 at night.

    If the Jack Lynch Tunnel was tolled, Cork City centre would grind to a halt.

    There's a simple solution to that. Slap a congestion charge and HGV ban on the city centre island. Not only would it push all the stingy HGV drivers and commuters back out to the tunnel, it would almost certainly improve the quality of life for the main thoroughfares in the city and the pedestrians and cyclists who use them, as well as PT times dramatically improving.

    I'd gladly pay a JLT toll if a portion of the toll meant Dunkettle gets pushed up the list for an upgrade.

    Tolling Waterford and Limerick were two majorly awful decisions.

    Should have tolled the M9 and M7 Nenagh sections instead.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    Of course would any of these countries actually even consider building and tolling motorway bypasses of comparatively small urban area's like Galway, Limerick or Wa'furd? I think not.
    Maybe then we should build bypasses of the bypasses for the poor hard pressed Limerick & Wa'furd locals?

    It's Waterford or nothing, OK?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,017 ✭✭✭invinciblePRSTV


    Tremelo wrote: »
    It's Waterford or nothing, OK?

    Why? Should it be Birmingham or nothing as well or is this specific to one place name?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    Why? Should it be Birmingham or nothing as well or is this specific to one place name?

    Simple answer: To avoid the inevitable reported posts from people who, rightly or wrongly, perceive it to be some sort of sleight against Waterford.

    Generally, you should refer to places using broadly acceptable, recognised terms. 'Wa'furd' is unacceptable. Moving on now.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Its difficult to get unbiased results as the bypasses change driver behaviour

    Example...Drivers now take longer distance journeys as journey times are reduced. Tolls impact a decision on whether to use th bypass. Economic downturn yada yada.

    For instance, 10 years or so ago, there was 1 route through Kinnegad. There are now 3. Plus the other factors so its hard to really measure



    I wouldn't necessarily use the word bias in this context.

    But you're right: bypasses, and new roads generally, can indeed change driver behaviour. I would go as far as to say they can change social behaviour also. In other words, the intended or unintended, expected or unexpected effects of a bypass may extend beyond the impact on current drivers and their travel and commuting patterns.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    I think the evidence is seen in Cork with the untolled Jack Lynch Tunnel. It's a roaring success. Granted the population and traffic volumes are larger than any other city (outside Dublin obviously) but it just works. So much so, it's nearly at capacity.

    Had Limerick/Waterford untolled bypasses, More people would obviously use them. In Waterford for example, I arrive back from Dublin three times a week and I often need to get to Tramore/WIT/IDA etc. so the Suir Bridge would be ideal, but not for 1.80 a go. Especially with the relatively modest congestion in Waterford City compared to say Galway/Cork.

    But now that it's built, I don't see NRA or CCs having much say. Must be paid for by someone!




    OK, let's look at Cork then, since the Jack Lynch Tunnel has not been tolled so far.

    Excerpt from a Cork City Council webpage (probably published 1999) on the Jack Lynch Tunnel:
    Motorists began to reap the benefits of this £100 million scheme when the tunnel was opened for normal traffic on Monday 31st of May 1999. Since then on average about 33,000 vehicles use the tunnel each weekday, with about 28,000 vehicles per day at weekends, and the tunnel and the associated ring road network has significantly reduced traffic congestion in the city centre.
    An Irish Times report on 5th May 1999 had this to say:
    The opening of the Jack Lynch Tunnel yesterday represented a proud day for the people of Cork and a very significant addition to this State's infrastructure. The Taoiseach, Mr Ahern, has pointed to the very practical benefits of the tunnel; by easing traffic congestion, it will help to give the heart of the city back to its people.
    Fast forward four years to 2003. Here's the first post in a thread titled "Cork Tunnel Chaos" in the Commuting & Transport Forum (dated 1st October of that year):
    De Rebel wrote: »
    Today’s Irish Examiner (Note 1) carried an article on the front page about congestion at Cork’s Lee Tunnel (aka the jack lynch tunnel). Apparently, 4 years after opening the tunnel it is carrying twice its design capacity. Think about that, twice its design capacity. Not twice the load it carried on day one, but twice its design capacity.

    [...]

    Note 1: Unfortunately not on the online edition.

    Note 2: One could conservatively assume the working life of a road tunnel to be somewhere around 100 years, for design purposes. Given the immense cost in terms of money and disruption of rectifying any design flaws it is imperative not to under estimate the capacity requirements. And given this nation's amazing and unenviable record in depopulation the rural areas and growing its towns it is reasonable to assume that this trend will continue and that urban traffic will continue to increase. How then, can paid professionals be so so wrong that they design a tunnel to cater for 100 years traffic growth and see it reach double its design capacity in 4 years.

    So, when a bypass gave the heart of Cork City back to its people, what did they do with this gift of brilliant engineering?

    It seems they drove more. Granted, the Celtic Bubble was really starting to expand then, so car ownership and car commuting was on the increase.

    Be that as it may, the anticipated congestion-relieving effects of the Jack Lynch Tunnel didn't include at the time, for example, a resurgence in non-car commuting in Cork City.

    Has this situation changed much since?

    In April of this year, the Irish Examiner reported that "the NRA has predicted the Jack Lynch Tunnel will exceed capacity after work is completed to make the Dunkettle interchange a full freeflow junction."

    This trend in traffic growth predated and necessitated the JLT, but the bypass didn't slow the trend. In fact, it could perhaps be argued that it added to it.

    Cork City Council's analysis of travel patterns based on data from the 2002 Census revealed that there was a substantial increase in the percentage of people travelling to work in private vehicles and a continued decline in more sustainable forms of travelling to work, school and college.
    Walking and cycling as a means of getting to work, school and college recorded significant decreases in the period 1996-2002. In contrast, travelling to work by motor vehicles has increased in almost direct proportion with the decrease in walking and cycling.

    Results from the census reveal that there has been a substantial increase in the percentage of people travelling to work in private vehicles. The number of people travelling to work as car passengers has dropped, probably due to the increase in car ownership allowing people the choice of travelling in their own car. The numbers travelling to work on foot has increased slightly by 2.8%, most likely due to population and employment growth in the City Centre. The numbers travelling to work by bicycle dropped by a third between 1996-2002. Public transport has also experienced decreases.
    CorkCityModalSplit1991-2002.jpg


    The numbers travelling to both primary and secondary school on foot decreased, while the number of students cycling dropped significantly by over 50%. However, the numbers using public transport, particularly buses, continued to increase.
    Growing numbers of students are being driven to school in cars, particularly at primary level. Over 10,000 primary schoolchildren are now driven to school by car, a 150% rise between 1996-2002. In 1996 it accounted for a third of all trips to primary school while in 2002 this percentage had risen to a over a half.

    Another trend evident in the 2002 results was an increase in the numbers of secondary school students driving to school, both on motorcycles and in cars.
    Given the chance to rejuvenate the heart of the city by taking advantage of the traffic-relieving effects of the Bypass, did the residents of Cork collectively decide that the best way to do this was to generate new traffic?

    The Cork City Strategic Plan 2001-2020 (CASP) recognises that road infrastructure improvements are needed, but warns that car traffic growth is not sustainable in the long or even medium term:
    The car dependent trend in Cork is fuelled by economic growth; rising car ownership; dispersed, low density development; a relatively high standard of road infrastructure and a historic lack of investment in public transport. The large forecast growth in population, employment and the increase in incomes, which enables higher rates of car ownership, will make matters disproportionately worse. Without a sustainable transport plan, traffic will double over the next 20 years. Peak hour travel speeds will fall to 5mph on most roads in the urban area. Journeys to work will take four or five times longer in many cases, so that two hour journeys to work from the suburbs to the City will not be unusual. The benefits of recent and planned road improvements will be rapidly eroded. Commuter traffic will dominate the road network, at the expense of its efficiency for strategic movement. None of these predictions is unrealistic.

    Provision of new roads is not generally a sustainable solution – it would only exacerbate the problem in the long term.
    A 2008 update of CASP re-emphasised this fundamental principle and confirmed that the traffic-relieving bypass itself was becoming significantly congested:
    Research carried out as part of this Update indicated that there is a continuing growth in the demand for car travel and that significant congestion is being experienced on parts of the road network including the South Ring Road and the Jack Lynch Tunnel at peak times. Future growth in car based demand for traffic is eroding the capacity of the key national and arterial route network and is not sustainable. between now and 2020. If this growth is not addressed in an integrated way congestion will intensify and spread throughout the City and urban areas bringing average traffic speeds down to as low as 5mph. This must be addressed by providing a choice of mode of travel by public transport and other non car modes including walking and cycling.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Regarding the time period covered in that graph, between 1991 and 2002 the number of cars per 1000 population went from:
    324/1000 to 469/1000

    That's an increase of 44.75%, population grew by 11.1% in same period (1991-2002)

    If you go from 1991 to 2006 (528/1000) the increase is: 57.4%, the population of the state grew by 20% during period 1991-2006.

    If we do some back of hand calculations. A rate of 324/1000 in 1991 =

    1991: (324/1000) = 1,142,332 cars

    2002: (469/1000) = 1,837,168 cars

    2006: (528/1000) = 2,238,639 cars

    Growth rate 1991-2002 in car numbers: 60.82%
    Growth rate 1991-2006 in car numbers: 96%

    The question isn't that more people decided to drive because the "Jack Lynch Tunnel" removed trucks etc from Cork city center. The issue is simply that we've seen a situation where over 15 years the population grew by 20% and numbers of cars on the road almost doubled (96%) growth.

    Germany by the way in 2008 anyways had slightly higher rate of car ownership per 1,000 (534/1000), Netherlands came in at 523/1000 so slightly lower then us.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    To give you an example of a place that has been bypassed where there are (a) no tolls and (b) direct counters available, Kinnegad to Tyrellspass (part of Kinnegad to Kilbeggan on M6) was opened on December 5th 2006. The AADT went from 11,601 in 2006 (before the opening the actual counts ranged from 10,500 to 14,000). In 2007 the AADT dropped to 2756, a 76% reduction (range 2,600 - 3,200).

    The proportion of HCV (this includes cars with trailers) is lower 11.9% vs 12.7% - but since these are a percentage of the actual figures the actual numbers have also dropped significantly (approx 330 vs 1,475).


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,017 ✭✭✭invinciblePRSTV


    I think the main thing to take into consideration when considering the imapct or otherwise of bypasses is the lax planning regimes which local authorities put in place around the the bypasses.

    In the Cork example, you can't just take the JLT in isolation when discussing Cork commuters driving habits, one has to consider the impact of Cork Co.Co planning decisions over the past 2 decades in tandem with the development of the South Ring road.

    What we've seen witht the development of the SR is the haphazard growth of car-dependant satellite towns like Carrigaline, Passage West & Rochestown, numerous scattered housing developments like Eagle Valley and Mount Oval, a couple of large shopping centre developments and the the mushrooming of one off housing around the lower western harbour area.

    This has the effect of making the South Ring as much an arterial route for the Cork metro area as it is a bypass of the city itself. For all the vaunted efforts of the CASP and LUTS plans (which have had a decent enough effect on the eastern side of the city in particular) Cork is still massively reliant on the car as public transport is barely functional within the defined city limits, and fairly poor outside city limits to large suburbs like your Carrigalines & Ballincolligs. Long commutes by car to cover short distances are pretty common place as a result.

    So considering this in relation to the OP's intent as to what the impact of the Galway City BP will be; You can be dam sure, knowing what the western county councils are like, that the Galway councillors will engage in an orgy of unsustainable development in the forms of out of town retail and housing developments, as well as loads of one off housing to take full advantage of the GCOB and N17/18 upgrade.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    So considering this in relation to the OP's intent as to what the impact of the Galway City BP will be; You can be dam sure, knowing what the western county councils are like, that the Galway councillors will engage in an orgy of unsustainable development in the forms of out of town retail and housing developments, as well as loads of one off housing to take full advantage of the GCOB and N17/18 upgrade.

    So what's the alternative - build factories & business parks in places like Athenry, Gort & Tuam? There is an IDA strategic site in Athenry that had a link road built to bring traffic directly to it from the M6 & R338, avoiding the village. I haven't heard of any companies interested in (re)locating there.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,017 ✭✭✭invinciblePRSTV


    antoobrien wrote: »
    So what's the alternative - build factories & business parks in places like Athenry, Gort & Tuam?

    Ideally the alternative isn't a roads related topic at all. We need a shake up of how local government operates to prevent previously mentioned acts of councillors acting on behalf of their electorate being able to easily contravene already flimsy local development plans.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    Ideally the alternative isn't a roads related topic at all. We need a shake up of how local government operates to prevent previously mentioned acts of councillors acting on behalf of their electorate being able to easily contravene already flimsy local development plans.

    I agree with most of that but i.m.o. it's not possible to entirely ignore roads when considering the alternatives, since they will have an effect on how roads are used. People have to travel to work and they will do so from areas where there are few if any reasonable PT options that will get them in for say an 8 a.m. start. To pick Eyrecourt at at random from Co Galway, residents will still have drive to where they're going. So should we cater for or ignore places like this?

    In an extreme case there are two solutions to the problem of people driving to long distances to work from areas that currently have little or no pt options (illustrative, I don't necessarily support or oppose either and not trying to spark a discussion of their merits):
    1) make places like this so expensive so as it's impossible to live there, forcing people to move to towns like Galway, Tuam, Loughrea etc that have employment & facilities that make it possible to use PT, walk or cycle most places.

    2) Move jobs closer to the people that are traveling to the large towns to work. Within Galway City it would be Knocknacara, in the county Athenry Loughrea, Ballinasloe, Tuam & Gort. This would help to reduce the pressure on the larger towns (e.g. the 5 city areas), giving extra time to time to put in place infrastructure (roads, rail, pt, water, telecoms, schools etc) that is needed to continue with proper development of these areas.

    Either solution would affect transport policy which includes roads.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    dubhthach wrote: »
    Regarding the time period covered in that graph, between 1991 and 2002 the number of cars per 1000 population went from:
    324/1000 to 469/1000

    That's an increase of 44.75%, population grew by 11.1% in same period (1991-2002)

    If you go from 1991 to 2006 (528/1000) the increase is: 57.4%, the population of the state grew by 20% during period 1991-2006.

    If we do some back of hand calculations. A rate of 324/1000 in 1991 =

    1991: (324/1000) = 1,142,332 cars

    2002: (469/1000) = 1,837,168 cars

    2006: (528/1000) = 2,238,639 cars

    Growth rate 1991-2002 in car numbers: 60.82%
    Growth rate 1991-2006 in car numbers: 96%

    The question isn't that more people decided to drive because the "Jack Lynch Tunnel" removed trucks etc from Cork city center. The issue is simply that we've seen a situation where over 15 years the population grew by 20% and numbers of cars on the road almost doubled (96%) growth.

    Germany by the way in 2008 anyways had slightly higher rate of car ownership per 1,000 (534/1000), Netherlands came in at 523/1000 so slightly lower then us.




    I've yet to look at the travel stats in the 2006 Census, so I'm not sure whether the trend continued in Cork City. It might also be interesting to compare the before and after stats for commuting times.

    Population growth and economic growth are important factors, but the level of car ownership does not necessarily have to equate with the level of car use in any particular location.

    In 2007 Ireland ranked behind the Netherlands in terms of car ownership, but it hardly needs to be spelled out how different the urban traffic and transportation environments are in each country.


    MotorisationbycountryEU272007.jpg


    Compare for example the cities of Graz (Austria) and Brighton (England) which are similar in population size, c. 250,000, about twice that of Cork City.

    Graz has a population density of 760 persons per sq km, whereas Brighton's is 2945/km^2 which would suggest that the latter might be better for public transport. In addition, car ownership in Graz is 474 per thousand pop. whereas in Brighton it's 360. Nevertheless, the car modal share for Graz is 52% -- for all trips -- compared to 69% for Brighton. (Source: Study of European Best Practice in the Delivery of Integrated Transport)

    I'm not sure what the quality of urban life is like in Brighton, but Graz is often held up as a best practice example of integrated public transport. The authorities made a political decision long ago to promote sustainable transport modes and to tackle car dependence and traffic congestion. They have systematically prioritised mobility, convenience and safety for users of public transport, pedestrians and cyclists. For example, in the mid-1990s Graz became the first European city to introduce a 30 kph limit city-wide, and now more than 75% of its road network has this lower limit. Studies have shown that 30 kph zones are of major importance in allowing public transport to compete successfully with the private car.

    Ireland's population has indeed grown significantly, and we still have the highest fertility rate in the EU 27 (albeit still below the replacement level).

    However, while breeding more human beings may be a biological imperative, breeding more car drivers is not.

    Does a growth in the number of secondary school students inevitably mean that there will be an increase in the number of them driving to school in their own cars? Anecdotally, I have heard of a secondary school in Cork where a bike shed was demolished to make way for student parking. Do they do that sort of thing in Copenhagen or Leiden?

    When the Jack Lynch/Lee Tunnel was conceived, a political decision could have been made to use the extra road space, especially in the absence of HGVs, for purposes other than accommodating more private car traffic.

    That didn't happen, despite the firm conclusion in CASP that projected traffic growth is unsustainable.

    If a bypass like the JLT/LT does not result in relief from traffic congestion, even in the short term, and if it does not facilitate traffic reduction by other means (eg public transport) within its catchment area, then IMO such infrastructure is not 'delivering the goods', especially in the context of planning strategies like the CASP.

    In terms of their desired effects, bypasses are sometimes promised as the panacea that will cure traffic congestion and make public transport, walking and cycling not only more feasible but positively enjoyable in the newly quiet streets. IMO that's a reasonable, laudable and sustainable vision. But it takes a lot more than the construction of a bypass to make such things happen, and in the absence of political will to implement the necessary transportation and planning policies the freed up road space can be filled with induced traffic surprisingly quickly, not just in the city streets but also on the bypass itself.


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