This is my Preamble to my submission (so far) FYI

"The first and overarching point made to everyone undergoing their first day of firearms training is that every firearm is lethal.

In this submission, I ask Committee members unfamiliar with firearms to suspend any Hollywood images of firearms use and ownership and in the interests of informed debate, to familiarise themselves with the Irish legal firearms ecosystem, which may differ from the groupthink and stereotypes common in the media.

It has been said that democracy needs debate to flourish.

A common aim of modern discourse is to ensure a diverse, tolerant and inclusive society.

In their duty of care to the public - which includes a minority of shooting enthusiasts - I ask the Committee to consider what can be conclusively established on the basis of public evidence.

Some contributors may question the necessity for this discussion RE: prevention of risk to public safety by licensed firearms - as this was explored at considerable length recently at the Barr Tribunal.1 Justice Barr's recommendations led to the present legislation. However the Committee has been tasked and of necessity, must continue the conversation - I ask the members to consider Justice Barr's report closely and any events in the intervening period leading to the present debate.

In particular, I ask the Committee to investigate:

The motivation and/or urgency underlying these proposals
The credibility of the proposers in this matter
Evidence supporting Public Safety concerns raised and the adequacy of present legislation in this regard
The proportionality of the present law
The effects of implementing these proposals - whether desired, consequential/collateral or unintended.

Shooting enthusiasts played an admittedly small role demonstrating Irish desire for peace in accepting the 1972 Temporary Custody Order and the subsequent firearms licensing policy, but it can be argued that this compliance had an influence on our accession to the EEC in 1973.

With a typical Irish forbearance mirrored again in recent austerity, the shooting minority patiently and peacefully complied with a firearms licensing policy which contravened statute law for thirty years from 1972 -2002, until peace was firmly re-established. The 2002 Dunne Supreme Court case2 is regarded as a milestone by shooting enthusiasts, demonstrating the need for firearms policy to be directed by a Minister; a power the Oireachtas promptly granted and a power which arguably would have been alarming during the Troubles.

In 2006, firearms legislation was introduced to curtail legal handgun ownership, on foot of a public outcry in the wake of gangland executions and feuds using illegal firearms. This legislation has been fully complied with by shooting enthusiasts, but no comprehensive impact analysis has been performed into the effect of the amendment in achieving its stated purpose, as outlined by the then Minister for Justice, Dermot Aherne.

Fully accepting the need for regulation, and fully complying with said regulations, shooting enthusiasts now fear that their forbearance and compliance when the country was in a state of emergency are being misinterpreted by authorities:

At no time in recorded History has a rampage killing of any category occurred in this country.

In a nation with an aversion to hunger, internationally known for its friendly disposition, with a valued reputation as peacemakers in the UN, a respected passport and a population that voted overwhelmingly for peace, a sense of proportion must be applied in the debate questioning a minority within such a nation, a minority which has been assessed on an individual basis by authorities and deemed not to present a threat to public safety or public order.

Such an approach was adopted by Justice Robert Barr in the Tribunal of Inquiry into the death of John Carthy in Abbeylara in 2000. Tribunal recommendations published in 2006 led to extensive consultations between firearms licensing stakeholders, leading to amendments to the Firearms Act incorporating a swathe of agreed improvements implemented in 2009. Irish shooting enthusiasts support some of the strictest and most restrictive firearms regulations in Europe.

I argue that Irish shooting enthusiasts have an unimpeachable history of responsibility in terms of safety and firearms licensing and there is little doubt that they would accept these proposals if they believed the draft heads presented an opportunity to save even a single life going forward.

This is not the case."

1. http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/Barr_Tribunal
2. Dunne and others-v-Donoghue and others [2002] 2 IR 533

Sparks wrote: »

Fixed your preamble :P

Also, Dunne didn't demonstrate the need for firearms policy to be directed by a Minister, it just established that the Gardai couldn't rewrite the Firearms Act (and McVeigh established that the Minister couldn't either, it's an Act of the Oireachtas and they're the ones that have to rewrite it).

All simplifications above in the interests of grabbing a minute or two of quality reading time by Committee members, Sparks.

That is just the preamble, now have to flesh out the substantial part.

daragh8008 wrote: »

French mass shooting, timing couldn't be worse.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30710883

Terrorist atrocity.

Ok
Next bit of submission part-complete;

"1.The motivation and/or urgency underlying these proposals

1.1 To the lay man, these proposals seem to have come out of the blue, in the absence of a general outcry regarding public safety.

1.2 Shooting organisations claim the proposals are motivated by recent court cases in respect of firearms licensing; certainly the compilation and presentation of the proposals could be viewed as adversarial by firearms enthusiasts.

1.3 As a firearms enthusiast following the subject, it would appear to me that the proposers, having explored several avenues in Law to prevent licensing of certain firearms, were given indirect guidance in recent court judgements. I believe this guidance is specifically mentioned by Minister Fitzgerald in answer to a Parliamentary Question from Deputy Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail);

To ask the Minister for Justice and Equality the cases or correspondence that the Judiciary have expressed difficulties in interpreting provisions of current firearms legislation; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [48404/14]
In Limerick District Court, an appeal hearing was heard in August 2013 with regard to two semi automatic, restricted rifles (rifles resembling assault rifles) and two centre fire handguns. This was an appeal against the decision of the Chief Superintendent not to grant licences for these firearms. It is reported that the Judge stated that the Chief Superintendent is being placed in an invidious position, with his concern being the public who he must protect and the possibility that the firearms may fall into the wrong hands. The Judge commented that the legislation has not grappled with the kernel of the issue; are these firearms lawful or not. The decision in this case was that the licences should be granted.

An appeal was heard in the Dublin District Court in October 2013 against the refusal to grant restricted licences for two centre-fire handguns (Thomas Mansfield V Chief Superintendent Coburn & the Commissioner of An Garda Síochána).

The Judge issued a ten page written judgment in December 2013, allowing the appeal, stating the following: “The Court is satisfied that he has a good and sufficient reason and that the guns are appropriate for the purpose for which they are required. The Court is satisfied that he doesn’t take part in practical or dynamic shooting. I am further satisfied that the concerns expressed by the Chief Superintendent on public safety are not enough to deprive the Appellant of his licence, particularly in view of the unexplained 90% who subsequently got their licences on reconsideration”.

The Judge also states: “Arguments about the availability of guns to civilians is a wider political question for the Legislature to address. This is not a question for the Courts; we can only deal with the law as it is”.

"In February 2014, in Bray District Court, the District Justice granted firearms licensing appeals and directed the relevant Chief Superintendent to issue nine restricted firearm certificates for centre fire handguns. The Judge commented that it was open to the legislature to ban these weapons but in the absence of that, he was allowing all of the appeals."

This indirect guidance is included here to provide datestamp evidence for my opinion on the emergence of these public safety concerns by the promoters.

2.The credibility of the proposers in this matter

2.1 Other submissions to the Committee may detail the large number of court appeals and reviews following licensing decisions since 2009. I ask the committee to consider whether the proposals under consideration are genuinely motivated by either a long-standing fear of an atrocity being committed by a licensed firearm holder -given that the licensor is precluded in Law from issuing a firearms licence on these very grounds - or by a fear of licensed firearms being stolen, which is another ringfenced reason for refusal - or whether the proposers are using the issue of public safety as a flag of convenience to press these proposals home, for motivations unknown.

2.2 Chief Supt. Fergus Healy, in his Dec 17 interview by the Committee, stated that public safety was the number one concern of Gardai in respect of recent court cases appealing firearms licence refusals: I ask the committee to establish - in light of the PQ answer by Minister Fitzgerald above dated December 2014 - whether this is a true reflection of said licence refusal decisions.

2.3 Irrespective of the Committee's findings on the two questions above, the WG Report predates the present Garda Commissioner, Dept. of Justice and Equality Secretary and Minister for Justice and Equality: This would normally be immaterial, but the previous Garda Commissioner Martin Callinan, left in circumstances precipitating an ongoing inquiry and the Committee must consider the quality of a crucial forward looking risk assessment on public safety, executed by the departed Commissioner for the WG Report, which is not included in the group's proposals or Appendices.

2.4 In the WG Report entitled 5. Background / Existing Legislative provisions /Nature of the problem

The statement

"In 2008 the then Minister for Justice, Dermot Ahern T.D. announced his
intention to introduce restrictions on the licensing of handguns.
The Minister said that no new licences would be issued for centre-fire
handguns and that existing licences would not be renewed unless the reapplications
fully met the requirements of a tightened licensing procedure.
These arrangements took effect from the time of announcement"

explaining how centrefire handguns are currently licensed by firearms enthusiasts, is conflated with the statement

"At the time the Minister indicated that if the outcome of such a review into
firearms licensing leaves a situation which still poses an unacceptable risk to
the community then new powers could be used to ban outright any type of
firearm."

Firearms enthusiasts accept the individual legitimacy of both statements, but strongly disagree that there is "a situation which still poses an unacceptable risk to the community" either at the present or at any time since the tenure of Minister Aherne and the introduction of the legislation and require hard documentary evidence of such a risk.

Conversely, a June 2014 Dail statement by the Minister for Justice and Equality, Frances Fitzgerald documents a 7% decrease in gun-related crime;

"Garda strategy for tackling gun crime involves targeted and intelligence-based operations, often disrupting and preventing incidents before harm is caused, as well as detecting and prosecuting those involved. Much of this work goes unheralded but it is carried out with great determination by the men and women of An Garda Síochána, who can themselves face great risk in taking on armed criminals.

The robust Garda response to violent crime has led to firearms offences decreasing last year by 7%, and the number of crime incidents in which a firearm was involved was also down, by more than 7%.....
.....The sale and possession of legally held firearms in this jurisdiction is highly regulated. However, my Department is currently conducting a review of firearms legislation after which I will engage in broader consultations ahead of preparing any legislative changes arising from the review. Ahead of completion of the review, I would point out that our criminal law already rightly provides heavy penalties for weapons offences and mandatory minimum penalties are in place for certain firearms offences. The Garda also has considerable powers available to it in tackling serious and armed crime"

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=90910759&postcount=687



2.5 Further in the abovementioned WG Report section, the statement

"In relation to short firearms it is important to note that handguns were
effectively banned in this jurisdiction for more than 30 years prior to 2004"

ignores the fact that this ban was effected by a policy which was later ruled unlawful.

2.6 A series of Parliamentary Questions on behalf of shooting organisations and enthusiasts - some posed as far back as February 2014 - requesting information and statistics pertinent to public safety and firearms remain unanswered at the closing date for submissions to this Committee.

Shooting enthusiasts cynically assume, perhaps with justification, that any and all data in support of the WG Report has been proffered.

2.7 Given the stated Garda difficulties interpreting the present legislation, are they the best people to publish Draft Heads of Bills?

Very well researched and wrote , fair play.Mine is in, just kept it basic enough but made my point.

Deaf git wrote: »

Reading the WG report again and looking at the members of the group a question springs to mind. How can the review be fair and accurate if all stakeholders are not represented? Wtf happened the partnership model? Am I thick and missing out on something obvious? If the make up of the group is one sided then 'Nemo iudice in causa sua' applies ( No man a judge in his own case - basic pillar of Natural Justice).

My humble few pages pale after reading some of the previous posts.

These proposals need many submissions to take them down. My own thoughts -unfinished as yet - only cover part of the picture, as I tried to cover areas which had been thinly addressed.

The more submissions - no matter how humble you may think they are - the better.

Keep 'em coming thick and fast - we only really have tomorrow to get them finished, as 3pm Fri is the deadline.

Hav,nt read all of proposals but i can see where this is going. As already said, decisions will be made by people who are ignorant regarding firearms and their use for sport. Its also interesting that the amount of murders involving firearms is mentioned and in the same breath it states that because most firearms were,nt recovered its impossible to say if they were licensed firearms that had been stolen. IMO firearms are like tools and how many people were injured or killed with, LETS SAY hammers or screwdrivers are they going to ban them aswell, My point is that IMO, guns dont kill other people, people kill other people and if you as an individual fit the criteria set out by law and are vetted and deemed to be a responsable and decent person the it should be your right to own and use any firearm, be it pistol, semi shotgun, rifle that you are licensed to have. I dont own a pistol and am not intending to own one but that does,nt mean that others should,nt have the right to own and enjoy them. Best of luck toyou lads that do have them and i hope you get to keep them. With regard to semi autos, i will in the future be intending on getting one in 12gauge, so i hope dont get their way.

Submission cont'd - WARNING: THIS IS GETTING REALLY JUICY RIGHT HERE

3.Evidence supporting Public Safety concerns raised and the adequacy of present legislation in this regard


3.1 On page 9 & 10 of the WG Review regarding large calibre handguns;

"During 2010, as the new licensing regime became operational, the holders of
existing licences for restricted handguns could re-apply for those licences.

Chief Superintendents, in some cases, refused these applications primarily on
public safety grounds. A number of Judicial Review (JR) cases were then
taken on these decisions, citing a “fixed policy” from the Garda decision
makers.....applications for such handguns were being refused
without consideration being given to the merits of individual applications.
In 2012 these particular JR cases were settled ....
The number of licence applications involved in these JR
cases came to 168...

The Garda Commissioner initially wrote to the Secretary General of DOJE
citing concerns over continued licensing of certain firearms, including
handguns. His considered view was that centre-fire handguns represent an
unacceptable risk to society and should no longer be licensed in Ireland.

In August 2013, the Secretary General of DOJE wrote to the Commissioner,
seeking to establish a joint Working Group."

Essentially, senior Garda officers acting on behalf of the Commissioner reconsidered handgun licenses they had initially refused on "public safety grounds" when JR proceedings found a blanket policy of refusal contrary to the Firearms Act.

Given that the Gardai are prohibited in Law from issuing any firearms licence when the applicant presents a threat to public safety in conjunction with the stated considered view of the departed Garda Commissioner " that centre-fire handguns represent an
unacceptable risk to society and should no longer be licensed in Ireland"

it is abundantly clear to any disinterested observer that the departed Commissioner supported the "fixed policy" contrary to the Firearms Act found in the JR. This "fixed policy" is the sole area of authority of the Minister for Justice, which is newly-given by the Oireachtas;

Page 8 Section 4. Oireachtas Debates 2009 of WG Report

"The Minister also said “In this Bill, the concept of a prohibited firearm is
introduced and Section 25 of the Bill (.....) proposes that the Minister.. should
have the residual powers to be able to declare certain firearms and
ammunition to be prohibited”.
(Section 27 of 2009 Act inserted a new Section 2C in the 1925 Firearms Act)."

"Minister Ahern said "I will, in consultation with the Garda Commissioner, keep
the situation on firearms licensing under review in the interests of public
safety" "

I ask the Committee to ascertain definitively the extent of consultation on behalf of the departed Commissioner and the sitting Ministers for Justice during the period 2010 - 2012 in relation to the "fixed policy" found in the JR hearings above.

It must be taken that without such consultation, firearms licensing authorities within An Garda Siochana, delegated on behalf of the departed Commissioner were acting ultra vires and essentially usurping a power deemed sensitive enough by the Oireachtas to be reserved for the Minister for Justice alone.

This kind of ultra vires activity was front-and-centre in a series of recent controversies involving An Garda Siochana, GSOC, Dept. of Justice and Equality which became public knowledge during 2014 and which the then-newly-appointed Minister for Justice Frances Fitzgerald sought to consign to History, with a stated view of rebuilding confidence in State Authority;

"...a series of systemic failings have caused massive controversy and generated mistrust in our police service,"

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/frances-fitzgerald-in-scathing-criticism-of-garda-force-30446504.html

3.2 The dispassionate observer must also be made aware that the "fixed policy" - essentially refusing firearms licences on the basis of the firearm's nature - the power reserved for the Minister alone , was not promulgated by the majority of deciding officers - a total of 168 appeals were the subject of JR proceedings out of a total 590 licensed centrefire handguns in the State.

I ask the Committee to consider the existence of "factions" within An Garda Siochana hierarchy during the tenure of the departed Commissioner, specifically in relation to ultra vires activity in the area of firearms licensing, while remaining cogniscant of ongoing inquiries in other areas.

Cass wrote: »

Just sent mine 2 minutes ago to both addresses.


Couple of quick questions, before I read the proposals doc in detail - what is the difference between the two email addresses and the two different deadlines?

Is it also worthwhile emailing or calling my local TD (and any other TD's) at the same time?

Thanks.