Seanad discussing should the pope visit Ireland

robindch · 25-02-2014 11:23PM

jank wrote: »

Stalin and Hitler both devout believers…hmmmm. sure, what next? Mao was a priest and Pol Pot was a Bishop I suppose.

Jank, your next post as vacuous as that one will be carded for trolling.

old hippy · 27-02-2014 01:01PM

I think it would be an insult to have this man come to Ireland. An insult to the survivors of abuse. A slap in the face, to see him feted and treated like royalty.

That said, it would be satisfying to see him put on the spot over what his reprehensible organisation has done to the people of Ireland.

The_Valeyard · 27-02-2014 01:56PM

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

Yes there is no doubt that Hitler was a catholic with a sincere belief in god (he believed in god so much that he felt it was his destiny as laid down by god that he lead Germany into world rulership, while exterminating all the Jews, Slavs, gays, socialists and any other untermenschen he could think of).

So Frank thanks for finally acknowledging that fact.

Incorrect. He believed in secularism based on science. he makes religious allusions but nothing that proves he had a sincere belief in Catholicism.

"The Fuhrer is deeply religious, though completely anti-Christian. He views Christianity as a symptom of decay. Rightly so. It is a branch of the Jewish race. This can be seen in the similarity of their religious rites. Both have no point of contact to the animal element, and thus, in the end they will be destroyed. The Fuhrer is a convinced vegetarian on principle." — Goebbels Diaries, 29 December 1939

Hotblack Desiato · 28-02-2014 12:16AM

Bloody veggies.

(his adult decision to embrace veggieism is as least as relevant as his childhood indoctrination into catholicism, n'est-ce pas?)

robindch · 28-02-2014 10:30AM

The_Valeyard wrote: »

"The Fuhrer is deeply religious, though completely anti-Christian. He views Christianity as a symptom of decay. Rightly so. It is a branch of the Jewish race. This can be seen in the similarity of their religious rites." — Goebbels Diaries, 29 December 1939

There are plenty of quotes from, say Mein Kampf -- you can find them easily -- in which Hitler says that he's "doing the Lord's work" and so on.

/godwin

Brian Shanahan · 28-02-2014 03:32PM

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Incorrect. He believed in secularism based on science. he makes religious allusions but nothing that proves he had a sincere belief in Catholicism.

What trumps the private fantasies of Goebbels, cold hard actions. And the action Hitler took to ban secular education, and insist on christian education for all German children speaks a lot louder than a few words in a private diary.

He was catholic. End of.

The_Valeyard · 03-03-2014 06:16PM

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

What trumps the private fantasies of Goebbels, cold hard actions. And the action Hitler took to ban secular education, and insist on christian education for all German children speaks a lot louder than a few words in a private diary.

He was catholic. End of.

Nonsense. Hitler was most affirmatively of an Atheist or agnostic following. Certainly not a Catholic. If he was a Catholic, executing priests, closing down Catholic associations and offices would seem a bit strange would it not? Not to mention pressure put on parents to send children to Hitler youth groups, rather than the church groups. Sure in 1937 the Pope was so concerned about the anti-Catholic activities of the Nazi regime that he wrote ‘With burning anxiety’ which criticised Hitlers persecution of Catholics.

Brian Shanahan · 03-03-2014 07:38PM

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Nonsense. Hitler was most affirmatively of an Atheist or agnostic following.

Fine, don't listen to the evidence. It doesn't matter to me one bit.

But the fact is Hitler invoked god nearly every day, never renounced his catholicism, emphasised christianity throughout every aspect of German life during the Third Reich and believed that he was personally chosen by god to lead the German people to their volkish destiny.

The_Valeyard · 03-03-2014 08:25PM

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

Fine, don't listen to the evidence. It doesn't matter to me one bit.

But the fact is Hitler invoked god nearly every day, never renounced his catholicism, emphasised christianity throughout every aspect of German life during the Third Reich and believed that he was personally chosen by god to lead the German people to their volkish destiny.

What evidence, I have presented you with documented proof of Hitlers faith by his closet friends and allies. Your premise of Hitler as a Catholic in your earlier posts is simply not true and not historically correct or accurate. Not to mention that the persecution also extended to Protestants groups, so this emphasis of Christianity you are spouting are simply elements of the cult of worship/ personality, not an actual factual faith belief system. But simply a tool used to gather support for the Nazi cause not actual belief.

Hitler really empathised Christianity by suppressing Catholic education and forcing schools to replace prayers with Teutonic rituals.... .

Even this Bishops were aware of this A.J Taylor had a good quote from the German Bishops regarding this "for years a war has raged in our Fatherland against Christianity and the Church, and has never been conducted with such bitterness. Repeatedly the German bishops have asked the Reich Government to discontinue this fatal struggle; but unfortunately our appeals and our endeavours were without success"(March 1942)

Invoking God by Hitler was simply a way to whip up the masses into a frenzy of emotion to support the war effort.

This idea he was chosen by God is just a product of leader worship, similar to that of Stalins Russia. Not actual divine messianic expectation.
Finally, this Volkish destiny you speak of, was not a Nazi creation, but was a popular almost folklore movement from the 19th century. It was a cultural or ethnic ideology that the Nazis seized upon.

robindch · 03-03-2014 10:23PM

The_Valeyard wrote: »

What evidence, I have presented you with documented proof of Hitlers faith by his closet friends and allies.

Why rely on second-hand evidence when you can have it straight from the horse's mouth:

A. Hitler wrote:

My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice. And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness and misery. When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people are plundered and exposed

- Adolf Hitler, speech in Munich on April 12, 1922, countering a political opponent, Count Lerchenfeld, who opposed antisemitism on his personal Christian feelings. Published in "My New Order", quoted in Freethought Today April 1990

robindch · 03-03-2014 10:28PM

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Hitler really empathised Christianity by suppressing Catholic education and forcing schools to replace prayers with Teutonic rituals.

You might care to read up on The Reichskonkordat, the agreement between Nazi Germany and the Vatican which, amongst other things, guaranteed in Articles 19–25 protection to the Catholic educational system:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichskonkordat

FYI, the Reichskonkordat still governs the relationship between the Vatican and the modern German state.

Nazi Germany wrote:

Article 19 - Catholic theological faculties in state universities are to be maintained. Their relation to Church authorities will be governed by the relevant concordats and by their supplementary protocols with stated regulations, having due regard for the relevant Church decrees. [12] The Reich Government will endeavour to secure for all of these Catholic faculties in Germany uniformity of treatment.

Article 20 - Where other agreements do not exist, the Church has the right to establish theological and philosophical colleges for the training of its clergy, which are to be wholly dependent on the Church authorities if no state subsidies are sought. The establishment, management and administration of theological seminaries and hostels for seminarians is, within the framework of the laws valid for all, the exclusive prerogative of the Church authorities.

Article 21 - Catholic religious education in elementary, vocational, secondary schools and institutions of higher learning is a regular school subject, and is to be taught in accordance with the principles of the Catholic Church. In religious education, special emphasis will be given to inculcating a patriotic, civic and social sense of duty in the spirit of the Christian faith and the moral code, just as happens in all other subjects. The curriculum and the selection of textbooks for religious education will be arranged in agreement with the Church authorities. The opportunity will be given to the Church authorities to check, with the agreement of the school authorities, whether the pupils receive religious education in accordance with the teachings and specifications of the Church.

Article 22 - In the appointment of Catholic religious instructors, agreement is to be reached between the bishop and the state (Land) government. Teachers who, because of their doctrine or moral behaviour, are declared unfit to further impart religious education, are not permitted to be employed as religion teachers so long as this obstacle remains.

Article 23 - The retention of Catholic denomination schools and the establishment of new ones is guaranteed. In all parishes where parents or guardians request it, Catholic elementary schools will be established, wherever the number of pupils, with due regard for the local conditions of school organization, appears to be sufficient for a school administered in accordance with the standards prescribed by the state.

Article 24 - In all Catholic elementary schools only such teachers are to be employed as are members of the Catholic Church, and who guarantee to fulfil the special requirements of a Catholic school. Within the framework of the general professional training of teachers, facilities will be created which will provide for the training of Catholic teachers, in accordance with the special requirements of Catholic denominational schools.

Article 25 - Religious orders and congregations are entitled to establish and conduct private schools, within the framework of the general laws and ordinances. These private schools award the same qualifications as state schools, insofar as they adhere to the regulations governing curriculum prescribed for the latter. Members of religious orders or congregations seeking admission to teacher training and employment in elementary, secondary or post-secondary schools are to meet the general requirements applicable to all

The_Valeyard · 03-03-2014 11:17PM

robindch wrote: »

You might care to read up on The Reichskonkordat, the agreement between Nazi Germany and the Vatican which, amongst other things, guaranteed in Articles 19–25 protection to the Catholic educational system:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichskonkordat

FYI, the Reichskonkordat still governs the relationship between the Vatican and the modern German state.

All well in good, that Hitler signed a treaty / concordant with the Catholic Church. Does not mean he would stick by it, just ask Stalin or Neville Chamberlain. Piece of paper meant nothing to Hitler. This was nothing more than an attempt to legitimise his power and to instill order and control over the eastern lands he would eventually conquer.

You have conveniently left out the rest of your link where it states the Nazis violated the agreement almost as soon as it was signed.

"It quickly became clear that [Hitler] intended to imprison the Catholics, as it were, in their own churches. They could celebrate mass and retain their rituals as much as they liked, but they could have nothing at all to do with German society otherwise. Catholic schools and newspapers were closed, and a propaganda campaign against the Catholics was launched."

— Extract from An Honourable Defeat by Anton Gill

As for your previous post about Hitlers Catholic views, sure I can easily find quotes from Hitler that give the complete opposite view to yours:

Quotes from Hitler himself (1941):

Night of 11th-12th July, 1941: "National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things." (Bormann 1953, pp. 6-7).

10th October, 1941, midday: "Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure." (Bormann 1953, p. 43).

14th October, 1941, midday: "The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State." (Bormann 1953, pp. 49-52).

19th October, 1941, night: "The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity."

21st October, 1941, midday "Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer.... The decisive falsification of Jesus' doctrine was the work of St. Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation.... Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, ******s? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St. Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea." (Bormann 1953, pp. 63-65).

13th December, 1941, midnight: "Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... ...When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease." (Bormann 1953, pp. 118-119).

14th December, 1941, midday: "Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself.... Pure Christianity -- the Christianity of the catacombs -- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics." (Bormann 1953, pp. 119-120).

more can be found here:

http://bartonpaullevenson.com/Hitler.html

obplayer · 04-03-2014 12:06AM

The_Valeyard wrote: »

All well in good, that Hitler signed a treaty / concordant with the Catholic Church. Does not mean he would stick by it, just ask Stalin or Neville Chamberlain. Piece of paper meant nothing to Hitler. This was nothing more than an attempt to legitimise his power and to instill order and control over the eastern lands he would eventually conquer.

You have conveniently left out the rest of your link where it states the Nazis violated the agreement almost as soon as it was signed.

"It quickly became clear that [Hitler] intended to imprison the Catholics, as it were, in their own churches. They could celebrate mass and retain their rituals as much as they liked, but they could have nothing at all to do with German society otherwise. Catholic schools and newspapers were closed, and a propaganda campaign against the Catholics was launched."
— Extract from An Honourable Defeat by Anton Gill

As for your previous post about Hitlers Catholic views, sure I can easily find quotes from Hitler that give the complete opposite view to yours:

Quotes from Hitler himself (1941):

Night of 11th-12th July, 1941: "National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things." (Bormann 1953, pp. 6-7).

10th October, 1941, midday: "Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure." (Bormann 1953, p. 43).

14th October, 1941, midday: "The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State." (Bormann 1953, pp. 49-52).

19th October, 1941, night: "The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity."

21st October, 1941, midday "Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer.... The decisive falsification of Jesus' doctrine was the work of St. Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation.... Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, ******s? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St. Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea." (Bormann 1953, pp. 63-65).

13th December, 1941, midnight: "Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... ...When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease." (Bormann 1953, pp. 118-119).

14th December, 1941, midday: "Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself.... Pure Christianity -- the Christianity of the catacombs -- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics." (Bormann 1953, pp. 119-120).

more can be found here:

http://bartonpaullevenson.com/Hitler.html

For what it's worth, to me Hitler was simply a thoroughly evil complete mental case who would use whatever organisation suited his purposes at the time and quote from whatever sources suited him. I don't think he can sensibly be used as an argument either for or against Christianity.

Brian Shanahan · 04-03-2014 01:42PM

obplayer wrote: »

For what it's worth, to me Hitler was simply a thoroughly evil complete mental case who would use whatever organisation suited his purposes at the time and quote from whatever sources suited him. I don't think he can sensibly be used as an argument either for or against Christianity.

But the "argument" that Hitler wasn't christian is central to the fundamentalist position that the evils of the 20th century were caused by the abondenment of christianity and rise of atheism (as if christianity had the inside track on morality and one needed to be christian to be able to not do evil). Therefore every time the lie that Hitler wasn't christian (and it has been amply demonstrated that it is a lie) has to be challenged, because otherwise some more insiduous lies (e.g. "all atheists are evil, atheism should be banned") are invariably behind the push to label him atheist.

I do agree that his christianity had no bearing on whether he was evil or not. But on the other hand neither would his atheism if he were atheist (unlike what the "Hitler was atheist" crowd would want us to believe).

robindch · 04-03-2014 02:08PM

The_Valeyard wrote: »

This was nothing more than an attempt to legitimise his power [...]

I don't disagree. What's notable is the speed and enthusiasm with which the Vatican signed up with the Nazis on the back of the support the German catholic "Center Party" provided to the Nazis in the passing of the Enabling Act which provided Hitler with his dictatorial powers.

And despite the violations -- which I suspect were less widespread than the wiki article makes out -- the Vatican never repudiated the Concordat with the Nazis. Neither did the Vatican, nor the reigning Popes of the time, ever formally condemn the activities of the Nazis, nor did they excommunicate any significant number of catholics, despite them making up around 40% of the population of Germany at the time (so I think it's reasonable to assume that a large number of them knew the details of the Final Solution).

The Vatican's position is complex but it's interest was simple enough -- the the preservation of its influence; the preservation and promotion of morals or the rule of law was irrelevant. It's subsequent broad position, that "Hitler was an atheist" and "Atheism caused the Holocaust", and that no blame attached to itself, are patently untrue.

jank · 05-03-2014 01:34PM

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

Yes there is no doubt that Hitler was a catholic with a sincere belief in god (he believed in god so much that he felt it was his destiny as laid down by god that he lead Germany into world rulership, while exterminating all the Jews, Slavs, gays, socialists and any other untermenschen he could think of).

So Frank thanks for finally acknowledging that fact.

Oh here we go again… tbh I am not surprised anyone else calling this out for the retiredness this is. I can hear an echo...

jank · 05-03-2014 01:45PM

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

But the "argument" that Hitler wasn't christian is central to the fundamentalist position that the evils of the 20th century were caused by the abondenment of christianity and rise of atheism (as if christianity had the inside track on morality and one needed to be christian to be able to not do evil). Therefore every time the lie that Hitler wasn't christian (and it has been amply demonstrated that it is a lie) has to be challenged, because otherwise some more insiduous lies (e.g. "all atheists are evil, atheism should be banned") are invariably behind the push to label him atheist.

I do agree that his christianity had no bearing on whether he was evil or not. But on the other hand neither would his atheism if he were atheist (unlike what the "Hitler was atheist" crowd would want us to believe).

So you are deliberately muddying the waters cause the other side do it….
Tell me, when did Stalin find 'God'? On his deathbed? :pac:

jank · 05-03-2014 01:46PM

robindch wrote: »

Why rely on second-hand evidence when you can have it straight from the horse's mouth:

We should believe everything a politician says now Robin? Hitler is well known to have courted the power of the church and religion but to equate that to himself being a firm believer of a 'God' in the catholic sense is not true, logical or indeed factual.

Hitler typically tailored his message to his audience's perceived sensibilities.[16][99] In the early 1930s, Hitler's public comments on Christianity were moderate.[100] In public speeches, he often made statements that affirmed a belief in Christianity.[101] According to Max Domarus, Hitler had fully discarded belief in the Judeo-Christian conception of God by 1937, but continued to use the word "God" in speeches - but it was not the God "who has been worshiped for millennia", but a new and peculiarly German "god" who "let iron grow". Thus Hitler told the British journalist Ward Price in 1937: "I believe in God, and I am convinced that He will not desert 67 million Germans who have worked so hard to regain their rightful position in the world."[102]
According to Bullock, Hitler had a materialist outlook, that believed science had already discredited Christianity and would ultimately destroy all myths - but he continued to speak of "Providence" to support his own myth:

It is amazing the people who regard themselves with much intelligence can be so blinkered with this question.

I think reading the below is a more balanced approach to this question than anything the zealots will post here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler
I would rather take note from historians on this question rather then people with an idealogical axe to grind.

robindch · 05-03-2014 03:28PM

robindch wrote: »

jank wrote: »

Stalin and Hitler both devout believers…hmmmm. sure, what next? Mao was a priest and Pol Pot was a Bishop I suppose.

Jank, your next post as vacuous as that one will be carded for trolling.

jank wrote: »

Oh here we go again… tbh I am not surprised anyone else calling this out for the retiredness this is. I can hear an echo...

Jank carded for ignoring a mod instruction.

recedite · 05-03-2014 07:30PM

The_Valeyard wrote: »

I can easily find quotes from Hitler that give the complete opposite view to yours:

Quotes from Hitler himself (1941):

Night of 11th-12th July, 1941: "National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things." (Bormann 1953, pp. 6-7).

10th October, 1941, midday: "Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure." (Bormann 1953, p. 43).

14th October, 1941, midday: "The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State." (Bormann 1953, pp. 49-52).

19th October, 1941, night: "The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity."

21st October, 1941, midday "Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer.... The decisive falsification of Jesus' doctrine was the work of St. Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation.... Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, ******s? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St. Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea." (Bormann 1953, pp. 63-65).

13th December, 1941, midnight: "Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... ...When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease." (Bormann 1953, pp. 118-119).

14th December, 1941, midday: "Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself.... Pure Christianity -- the Christianity of the catacombs -- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics." (Bormann 1953, pp. 119-120).

more can be found here:

http://bartonpaullevenson.com/Hitler.html

Those are all "quotes" from Bormann's notebook, so you are relying on what Bormann thought Hitler was saying. Which may or may not be more useful than knowing what Hitler actually said in public.

recedite · 05-03-2014 07:35PM

Anyway, I think this photo of Hitler's bike, resplendent with favourite motto "Gott mit uns" settles the matter.

jank · 05-03-2014 09:41PM

That "Gott mit uns" is a motto that the army had way before hitler was even born so to attribute that to him is again nonsense. However, the SS and Waffen SS had their own motto which stated Meine Ehre heißt Treue ('My honour is loyalty'). This was of Hitler's choosing….

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gott_mit_uns

jank · 05-03-2014 09:51PM

recedite wrote: »

Those are all "quotes" from Bormann's notebook, so you are relying on what Bormann thought Hitler was saying. Which may or may not be more useful than knowing what Hitler actually said in public.

Hitler was a politician and said things in public to garner support. I would say private conversation between his most trusted would give a better indication on this actual thoughts on his subject rather than public musings for political gain.

Hitler emphasised that Nazism was a secular ideology founded on modern science.[152] In a diary entry of 28 December 1939, Joseph Goebbels wrote that "the Fuhrer passionately rejects any thought of founding a religion. He has no intention of becoming a priest. His sole exclusive role is that of a politician."[153] In Hitler's political relations dealing with religion he readily adopted a strategy "that suited his immediate political purposes."

According to Marshall Dill, one of the greatest challenges the Nazi state faced in its effort to "eradicate Christianity in Germany or at least subjugate it to their general world outlook" was that the Nazis could not justifiably connect German faith communities to the corruption of the old regime, Weimar having no close connection to the churches.[155] Because of the long history of Christianity in Germany, Hitler could not attack Christianity as openly as he did Judaism, Communism or other political opponents.[155] The list of Nazi affronts to and attacks on the Catholic Church is long.[156] The attacks tended not to be overt, but were still dangerous; believers were made to feel that they were not good Germans and their leaders were painted as treasonous and contemptible.[156] The state removed crucifixes from the walls of Catholic classrooms and replaced it with a photo of the Führer.[157]

Hitler issued a statement[when?] saying that he wished to avoid factional disputes in Germany's churches.[158] He feared the political power that the churches had, and did not want to openly antagonize that political base until he had securely gained control of the country. Once in power Hitler showed his contempt for "non-Aryan" religion and sought to eliminate it from areas under his rule.[159][160] Within Hitler's Nazi Party some atheists were quite vocal, especially Martin Bormann.[161] According to Goebbels Hitler hated Christianity.[162] In 1939, Goebbels wrote that the Fuhrer knew that he would "have to get around to a conflict between church and state" but that in the meantime "The best way to deal with the churches is to claim to be a 'positive Christian'"."[163]

Hitler often used religious speech and symbolism to promote Nazism to those that he feared would be disposed to act against him.[164][165] He also called upon religion as a pretext in diplomacies. The Soviet Union feared that if they commenced a programme of persecution against religion in the western regions, Hitler would use that as a pretext for war

recedite · 05-03-2014 10:08PM

Yeah, its not really Hitlers bike, I was only joking. The 1990 era styling gives it away.

Its Mel Gibson's bike.

BTW my own opinion is that Hitlers religious views changed over time, as most people's views do. So he started out as Catholic (and always retained that cultural catholic deference for authoritarianism, strict hierarchy and black uniforms)
Gradually, as his power increased, he came to see Christianity as a weak religion, one that glorified the victim instead of the victor, and so he was working on a new version of religion for his 1000 year Reich.

Seanad discussing should the pope visit Ireland

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