Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

westtip · 31-03-2010 11:08am

corktina wrote: »

Galway to Rosslare would lose money of course but intergrating several sparcely used services into one would surely limit those losses and open up further journey opportunities. A properly timetabled and resourced service such as this on a two hourly headway, connecting properly at The Junction with the Cork trains would be an asset to the country, even if it is a costly one.

There seems little will in IE to do things like this, so its up to our political masters to tell them to shape up or ship out.

Just look at the packed trains over the water, tghese are largely as a result of privatisation of services, I am convinced such a shake-up is necessary here before Rail can improve.

Never mind all the trainspotter-mentality ideas such as loco hauled and Mk3 coaches etc...what is needed is top quality fast clean trains run to a regular reliable timetable to attract users to Rail.The 22Ks go some way toward this, we need better versions of them and more of them.

WAKE UP IE!.....

Good points Corky for all my criticism of the anoraks and trainspotters and antics of WOT, the issue is not really the railway line itself but the complete Tos*ers who run the system. After those mind boggling sums thrown around like confetti as if they didn't matter yesterday re NAMA, maybe we shoudln't get so hung up on how much the WRC is going to lose how much the N17/18 upgrade will cost etc afterall those wan*ers who run this country have just p*ssed our entire inheritance up the wall......

Not sure what this has got to do with the dear old WRC but jsut letting off steam .....(ah don't get Nigel and Tarquin excited with the Steam word...)

Judgement Day · 31-03-2010 11:54am

westtip wrote: »

Electric cars are getting better and better, hybrid cars with super fuel efficient engines the same, only a matter of time before the first efficient electric truck makes an appearance.

Nuclear fusion makes very plentiful supply of electricity.

westtip - I think you've been on the ginger beer again! Nuclear fusion, from my very limited grasp of the subject, is many years away from being a general source of electricity production. Wiki have more info that you could possible want about the subject here, needless to say the shutters came down for me fairly soon after starting reading the stuff.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_fusion

Stonewolf · 31-03-2010 12:14pm

Yeah, The Iter project reckon they might have a prototype demonstration plant in the works as soon as 2050!

The important thing to remember is that currently fusion achieves a "Q value" of about .8 which is how much of the energy you put in came out the other end. Obviously .8 means it consumes energy, ITER is designed to hopefully finally please at last achieve a Q value of more than 1 (in other words producing energy), in order to use it for electricity generation you need a considerably higher Q value than that and in addition you need it to be reliable, economical, safe and generally conform to a whole load of other requirements that experimental technologies generally prefer not to think about.

In any case, none of this has anything whatsoever to do with the WRC (largely because fusion is nuclear and DEARGODSOMEONETHINKOFTHECHILDREN) which is more likely to see hydrogen fuel cell power unless something very strange happens.

westtip · 31-03-2010 2:48pm

Judgement Day wrote: »

westtip - I think you've been on the ginger beer again! Nuclear fusion, from my very limited grasp of the subject, is many years away from being a general source of electricity production. Wiki have more info that you could possible want about the subject here, needless to say the shutters came down for me fairly soon after starting reading the stuff.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_fusion

JD you I am sure you know I meant nuclear energy! Which we bury our heads in the sand about as the greenest form of efficient and reliable energy ...but perhaps we ought not take this thread down this route. Anyway any news on passenger numbers from the Western front. have they sold out of kleenex tissues in Claremorris - is the excitement overbearing, has the holy father been on track yet?

steamengine · 31-03-2010 3:33pm

westtip wrote: »

JD you I am sure you know I meant nuclear energy! Which we bury our heads in the sand about as the greenest form of efficient and reliable energy ...but perhaps we ought not take this thread down this route. Anyway any news on passenger numbers from the Western front. have they sold out of kleenex tissues in Claremorris - is the excitement overbearing, has the holy father been on track yet?

An interesting subject for debate on another thread - particularly its relevance to the possible eventual total electrification of rail in this country. In the meantime back to the WOT.

IMO the WOT project represents the first step of interlinking the cities and some major provincial towns, forming in effect a national circle line. For the time being I concede it needs something in the order of a 'miracle' to avoid criticism.

However Knock airport commenced in much the same manner, derided 'as a useless folly on a foggy, boggy hilltop in Mayo'.

It progressed however, through regional airport status to international status contrary to all the negative predictions. Hopefully, this new route will progress in a similar fashion.

dowlingm · 31-03-2010 3:50pm

Unless there was an undisclosed issue with the Mark 3s, I don't see how they could not have been kept in service as their contemporaries were - especially the PPs. This is one reason I think IE should be forced to do a sale and leaseback of their equipment to someone like Angel Trains, as their interest would be in sweating the assets, not in persuading politicians of the merits of "new/shiny". Hell if they hadn't scrapped so many already there might have been an option to buy electric powercars and put the 3s on the DART system since it's hard to see how the country can buy a three-figure number of EMUs and bail out Anglo at the same time.

[edit - and yes I know the 3s would suck because they only have end doors - I'm just saying this is what we could be reduced to]

corktina · 31-03-2010 4:20pm

steamengine wrote: »

IMO the WOT project represents the first step of interlinking the cities and some major provincial towns, forming in effect a national circle line. For the time being I concede it needs something in the order of a 'miracle' to avoid criticism.

.

a first step perhaps, but it tripped at the first hurdle.
All that money spent on a windy speed restricted indirect line is a savage waste. It falls between two stools constantly, it is neither an InterCity line as it has too many stations (some of them serving tiny settlements) nor a useful rural line as it has too few stations. Its not a proper commuter line either as it doesnt stop in Oranmore and other useful places.There arent enough trains. They dont continue late enough. The train quality is apparently awful (although i think those units are OK myself). etc etc

westtip · 31-03-2010 4:42pm

steamengine wrote: »

An interesting subject for debate on another thread - particularly its relevance to the possible eventual total electrification of rail in this country. In the meantime back to the WOT.

IMO the WOT project represents the first step of interlinking the cities and some major provincial towns, forming in effect a national circle line. For the time being I concede it needs something in the order of a 'miracle' to avoid criticism.

However Knock airport commenced in much the same manner, derided 'as a useless folly on a foggy, boggy hilltop in Mayo'.

It progressed however, through regional airport status to international status contrary to all the negative predictions. Hopefully, this new route will progress in a similar fashion.

steam we have been down this route in debate so many times - comparing the WOT project with Knock Airport is apples and pears.

WOT is about the restoration of a railway alignment that bears little relevance to modern day living in the west of ireland, a most massively car dependent community that needs good roads. We simply don't have the population in the west to sustain it.

Knock Airport creates linkages to our main market the UK; and is very important to the region, it brings tourists in it allows people to migrate easily for work commuting to the Uk on a weekly basis it allows families and friends to easily stay connected - it is a new piece of infrastructure using 21st century transport. ~The WRC is a resurection of 19th century infrastucture that has had its day - I am not saying this about railways per se - just railways in scattered rural communities - the relevance of train travel on an everyday basis in a community like this is zero, which is why it won't get high level usage from the local community - the thinking will be sure isn't great you can get the train from crusheen to Galway now - and in the next breath they will say I am going up to Galway on Saturday does anyone need a lift. The railway does not serve our new way of working - in retail parks, or new business parks or from home etc which is why this project will not work - it simply isn't relevant to our everyday lives....

Knock Airport and regional airtravel it provides is relevant.

steamengine · 31-03-2010 7:06pm

Corktina and Westtip - thanks for your logical explanations - needs a miracle ok !

corktina · 31-03-2010 7:45pm

people may think some of us on here are anti-rail...I for one am pro-rail but anti-not-doing-it-properley.

The way the WRC has been opened is so half-hearted its almost bound to fail...such a waste , dont you think the west would have gained a lot more in investing that dosh in improving the Galway to Dublin service? That must really be suffering from Motorway competition now, ham-strung as it is by single line format.

shamwari · 31-03-2010 8:58pm

corktina wrote: »

people may think some of us on here are anti-rail...I for one am pro-rail but anti-not-doing-it-properley.

The way the WRC has been opened is so half-hearted its almost bound to fail...such a waste , dont you think the west would have gained a lot more in investing that dosh in improving the Galway to Dublin service? That must really be suffering from Motorway competition now, ham-strung as it is by single line format.

Yep, I agree. I've no problems with the WRC per sé but the way it has been done has been to deliver something that will operate way below its true potential. Still I hope it succeeds, but IE has it's share of MacTheKnife merchants and we all know what they are like.

The rolling stock is not what I would expect, and the speed restrictions are a joke. I for one would like to see the subvention linked directly to the true performance of the services.

corktina · 31-03-2010 9:15pm

very good point. Lay down minimum sucess levels and if they arent met the subvention goes to a private operator along with a license to operate the line for so long as they DO meet the levels set.

DWCommuter · 31-03-2010 10:09pm

shamwari wrote: »

Yep, I agree. I've no problems with the WRC per sé but the way it has been done has been to deliver something that will operate way below its true potential. Still I hope it succeeds, but IE has it's share of MacTheKnife merchants and we all know what they are like.

The rolling stock is not what I would expect, and the speed restrictions are a joke. I for one would like to see the subvention linked directly to the true performance of the services.

There was never going to be any other way. The poor journey times, the route and lack of rolling stock were all issues that were pointed out to both WOT and the Government as early as 2004 and right up to last year while construction was in progress.

As an existing railway and after is latest upgrade - it is now operating at its full potential. The speed restrictions aren't some covert attempt to force its demise. They are a reality of the line being a very poorly built one in the first place and the timetable is hampered by the lack of passing loops. The only addition that can be made is better rolling stock, but its simply not there and wasn't provided for.

Platform 11 made the point a few years back that the only way for Limerick - Galway to stand a chance of working as an intercity line was if the route was realigned to avoid Athenry and approach Oranmore on a more direct route. But that would have been big bucks. (its a safe bet that WOT and their cronies would have been up in arms at the thought of Craughwell and Athenry being omitted)

When all is said and done the WRC was advocated by the same bunch of people over the years. These same people originally had a good idea (circa 1981) but by 2003 Ireland was a very different place and the campaign they wheeled out was irrelevant in the 21st century. Furthermore they cared not one iota about journey times and rolling stock or catering or for that matter decent customer service. Therefore what we have now on the WRC is a waste of 100million. A slow, poorly timetabled service with unsuitable rolling stock. Just imagine how bad it would get if it went further north.

Once its proven that this line doesn't cut the mustered financially, expect WOT to utter the phrase, "we need it extended all the way to Sligo. Then it will make money." They exist in a different head space to sane people, therefore they are easy to predict. They are definately not a successful rail lobby. In fact they are perhaps the most ill informed failure in the history of railway lobbying and every moan and gripe about the open section of the WRC will be testament to that.

shamwari · 31-03-2010 11:13pm

Well they have to make a reasonable success of what they've got now in order to justify any further reopenings. And with the best will in the world, I think the "business case" for further reopenings beyond Athenry will not be helped one bit by the inadequacies of what has been delivered. Things have started on the back foot in this regards, and as has been pointed out here already, the road is far more competitive than the WRC with those line speeds and its very routing.

I would stop way short of critcising them as "..definately not a successful rail lobby", simple because they have achieved what they set out to. It is clear though that the real battle for them and the WRC lies ahead. The services have to proven as viable, and there has to be substantial demand for use to reinforce any lobbying they do for extensions. The congenital weaknesses of the current set up will mitigate heavily against that. It also irks me too about these threats made against the Nenagh line and the other one is the southeast - they are are concern, and it will be a travesty if these are sacrificed just as the WRC gets going. How can the fruition of a multi million spend be justified at the same time as two other lines are axed?

As an aside, there's far more wrong with the rail network on the east side of the country that is beyond a quick and easy fix. It's a disgrace that the DASH2 project hasn't been kicked off already instead of a planned start next year or beyond. It's time that capacity is delivered where it is needed most, and now. Then again, even if that capacity were delivered on the rails, I doubt if sufficient stock will be on hand to utilise it.

Have they been too hasty culling all those old coaches?? Perhaps the hindsight of recession has exposed the dreadful judgements made during the profligacy that was the Celtic Tiger.

highlydebased · 02-04-2010 12:48am

Here's our 22000 liveried 2700. Minus the front gangway, oddly.

Judgement Day · 02-04-2010 12:52am

How wonderful - I don't suppose the interior has been upgraded too? Presumably the gangway has been removed so that it looks like as single unit when it takes over services on the WRC and, possibly, the Limerick Junction/Waterford line if it survives.

highlydebased · 02-04-2010 12:57am

No idea about the interior unfortunately

In other news a 22000 has been doing a few Limerick-Ennis services to "supplement capacity"......over the last few days. Nearly crashed the car the other night when I saw it. Maybe they should have sent this to Galway for the first few days to make it look a bit more attractive....? Then again, that would be the logical thing to do. Couldnt have that now...

KC61 · 02-04-2010 9:15am

shamwari wrote: »

Well they have to make a reasonable success of what they've got now in order to justify any further reopenings. And with the best will in the world, I think the "business case" for further reopenings beyond Athenry will not be helped one bit by the inadequacies of what has been delivered. Things have started on the back foot in this regards, and as has been pointed out here already, the road is far more competitive than the WRC with those line speeds and its very routing.

I would stop way short of critcising them as "..definately not a successful rail lobby", simple because they have achieved what they set out to. It is clear though that the real battle for them and the WRC lies ahead. The services have to proven as viable, and there has to be substantial demand for use to reinforce any lobbying they do for extensions. The congenital weaknesses of the current set up will mitigate heavily against that. It also irks me too about these threats made against the Nenagh line and the other one is the southeast - they are are concern, and it will be a travesty if these are sacrificed just as the WRC gets going. How can the fruition of a multi million spend be justified at the same time as two other lines are axed?

As an aside, there's far more wrong with the rail network on the east side of the country that is beyond a quick and easy fix. It's a disgrace that the DASH2 project hasn't been kicked off already instead of a planned start next year or beyond. It's time that capacity is delivered where it is needed most, and now. Then again, even if that capacity were delivered on the rails, I doubt if sufficient stock will be on hand to utilise it. Have they been too hasty culling all those old coaches?? Perhaps the hindsight of recession has exposed the dreadful judgements made during the profligacy that was the Celtic Tiger.

DASH2 is in progress - there are new signals being installed on the Howth branch as we speak to allow bi-directional working.

steamengine · 02-04-2010 1:17pm

FlameoftheWest wrote: »

Never going to happen. Collossal crude reserves are being found all the time...............

And don't give me the "carbon" rubbish as the main scientists behind all that were exposed as lying scumbags cooking the books.

Supply is only one factor in reducing our dependency on oil. Fluctuating oil prices have already kicked off the departure from oil. The ESB are currently using only 6% oil out of total usage, compared with 11% renewables ! In addition there is now 1000 car battery recharging stations are now being rolled out country wide.

As regards the carbon rubbish - All the recent flooding that took place in the West !!! - Do you think that was part of a normal weather pattern ???

bg07 · 02-04-2010 1:32pm

Article about ridership on the line in today's paper. The novelty factor seemed to wear off the service even quicker than expected.

Irish Times Article

Our man in Havana · 02-04-2010 1:43pm

Link formatting fail there!

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/features/2010/0402/1224267546081.html is the correct link.

lord lucan · 02-04-2010 1:52pm

Quote of the week from the IT article: “And this is Holy Week, so it’s not a typical week.”:)

DWCommuter · 02-04-2010 1:54pm

Bond-007 wrote: »

Link formatting fail there!

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/features/2010/0402/1224267546081.html is the correct link.

PAH!

Its Holy Week. Didn't you know?:D

FlameoftheWest · 02-04-2010 2:28pm

steamengine wrote: »

As regards the carbon rubbish - All the flooding that took place in the West - Do you think that was part of a normal weather pattern ???

There is a big ball of fire in the sky which is called "the Sun" and it has been acting very oddly for the last 12 years. This is what regulates global temps more than anything else. That's the cause of all major climate change. The flooding in the West happened many times in the past. There was a scheme to drain the Shannon in the 1940's because of it. So many people notice it now because so many one off houses have been built in floodlands in recent years. In the past only the farmers would of noticed the flooding.

Also google "Climate Gate" and see what a shower of lying psychopaths the main scientists behind Man Made Global Warming were and how they were caught in a sensational fraud when Russian Hackers broke into their files and exposed them as lowlifes and liars. All of them. Every last PhD decieving cretinious single last one of them. The greatest scientific fraud in history.

All Gore, the Green Party and all the journalists were full of it. There is no Man Made Global Warming problem and there is no such thing as peak oil. All corporate and government scams to create new taxes and plough huge sums of public cash into the auto/oil industry to fund their fake crisis.

Look it all up. All 100% verified and kept out of the papers as just about every journalist behind this carry on now looks like a propaganda spouting fool. Which they are. All the had to do was check the scientists papers and the lies, ommission and frauds in the data was apparent. But almost no journalist bothered and now they are trying to hide the whole sorry business.

Again, The Sun - a big ball of fire in the sky which is not behaving the way it should...look it up. Some of the recent giant filiments of energy coming out of the Sun have never been witnessed before. You can't tax this. This is why it is not a crisis...

FlameoftheWest · 02-04-2010 2:38pm

Neon-Circles wrote: »

Here's our 22000 liveried 2700. Minus the front gangway, oddly.

I can't believe this was a real story.

dowlingm · 02-04-2010 2:53pm

what's a "chained official" when it's at home?

Our man in Havana · 02-04-2010 2:57pm

dowlingm wrote: »

what's a "chained official" when it's at home?

Mayors, chairmen of county/town/city councils etc.

corktina · 02-04-2010 3:01pm

FlameoftheWest wrote: »

There is a big ball of fire in the sky which is called "the Sun" and it has been acting very oddly for the last 12 years. This is what regulates global temps more than anything else. That's the cause of all major climate change. The flooding in the West happened many times in the past. There was a scheme to drain the Shannon in the 1940's because of it. So many people notice it now because so many one off houses have been built in floodlands in recent years. In the past only the farmers would of noticed the flooding.

Also google "Climate Gate" and see what a shower of lying psychopaths the main scientists behind Man Made Global Warming were and how they were caught in a sensational fraud when Russian Hackers broke into their files and exposed them as lowlifes and liars. All of them. Every last PhD decieving cretinious single last one of them. The greatest scientific fraud in history.

All Gore, the Green Party and all the journalists were full of it. There is no Man Made Global Warming problem and there is no such thing as peak oil. All corporate and government scams to create new taxes and plough huge sums of public cash into the auto/oil industry to fund their fake crisis.

Look it all up. All 100% verified and kept out of the papers as just about every journalist behind this carry on now looks like a propaganda spouting fool. Which they are. All the had to do was check the scientists papers and the lies, ommission and frauds in the data was apparent. But almost no journalist bothered and now they are trying to hide the whole sorry business.

Again, The Sun - a big ball of fire in the sky which is not behaving the way it should...look it up. Some of the recent giant filiments of energy coming out of the Sun have never been witnessed before. You can't tax this. This is why it is not a crisis...

Yep all hype...any changes you can notice in the weather are NOT changes in the climate....climate changes over centuries and millennia...weather patterns change constantly

DWCommuter · 02-04-2010 3:01pm

dowlingm wrote: »

what's a "chained official" when it's at home?

Every last mickey mouse mayor or head of some rediculous talking shop in the wesht. Something like this;

Note the carefully positioned "chains".

dowlingm · 02-04-2010 3:03pm

makes sense now - I thought it was a way of referring to Dempsey's bureaucrats, never thought about the local lads.

Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

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